Let me clarify... "Statistically Verified" on a "global" scale. What works for 1 person(s) doesn't mean it works for someone else. There are too many factors involved to develop an actual "statistic" on a design, such as time of day/month/year, traffic sources, political restraints, economy, etc... That's all I'm trying to say.

I agree that some companies find layouts and designs that work for them in particular, and some basic rules do apply to some degree overall, but to try and pin-point generalized design/layout methods that convert better than others is ludicrous, because the second you think you have found one, there will always be something "better". Technology evolves, methods are refined, strategies are realized, and your statistics then become obsolete.

Interesting that you take this extremely emotionally. Is this the much vaunted PROFESSIONALISM that you speak of?

Finally--FIXING the price of anything is a bad idea. Its a GLOBAL marketplace. The TRUE price of design (just like any commodity) will be decided, ULTIMATELY, by its effectiveness and competition.

Hiding your head in the sand and trying to insult me for asking questions Design clients ask in private does not make the issue go away.

ok i get the idea :)

Exactly. What Pornweaver and other guys like him seem to be advocating is that the CLIENT be left holding the bag when the design doesn't convert.

I'm okay with this IF the transaction cost is LOW. What if the designer charged a shitload of money?

Another good point. It is a COMMODITY. Just like any commodity there are many sources and points of origin. Prices differ.

Bottomline, it is Return On Investment that should set the price instead of how 'hyped' a 'designer' is.

I think everyone would agree with that statement, the other posts above are just discussions and points of departure re HOW we can get a ranking/ROI sorting system going.

Design is an Art form, not a marketplace. Get it straight. Design is not a "commodity" it is a service industry. You do NOT pay for the final product, you pay for the designer's time.

Using your ill-conceived logic... You should be able to get Paris Hilton to model for you @ the standard $900-1200 for a scene that ANY amateur pornstar makes right? Or maybe you can convince her that she is worth less than that.

Keep truckin' cock knob. You're in the wrong industry. Time to pack up your bags and go back to mainstream.

He said it is a SERVICE. Get it through that rock you call a head. SERVICE is NOT a Commodity. You pay for time. Good fucking lord you are thick.

And in being such, I am also DISAGREEING with your statement. Which renders your statment invalid. So Fuck the Fuck Off now. Go back to mainstream, you have no place in this industry.

My Last Post in this thread. webmaster x... You are an asshat.

QUOTE FROM YOUR BLOG:
----------------------------------------------------------
Money in Trolling
Personally, I hate to say this... but judging from our recent comparison of CTRs from Forums and chatboards/opinion boards, there's quite a lot of money to be made in TROLLING. We've been pushing cam sites using the trolling technique and its been quite effective.

What is trolling: Exaggerating one's position to get a rise from the readers of a board.

See our personas article and study the definition of a board troll. Amazing stuff. Definitely gets eyeballs.

However, there's a FINE LINE between trolling and just being OFFENSIVE. Its a spidery line so hopefully you'll study it closely before throwing out the bait threads.

Happy fishing.
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.justtraffic.blogspot.com/
----------------------------------------------------------

---- Happy Trolling... Asshat.

Just because I sport a sig doesnt mean I own the site. I am a contractor with the company that owns the site, that doesn't make me an owner now does it?


Just goes to show your level of analysis.

EVEN if it was a troll, you ended up swallowing ALL of it.

There is no distinction between SERVICE and COMMODITY. You GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD that the old definition of commodity as a PRODUCT is long gone.

For someone who uses the Internet such as you appear to do, wouldn't this be obvious?

Moreover, why are you being so emotional about this issue? Does this hit close to home? Maybe you can't convince people with REASONING ... perhaps that is why you have to resort to namecalling.

Well, guess what,... I am not intimidated.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=service
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=commodity

No. People can buy design from designer 1 or designer 2 or designer 200000 each has a portfolio, each has a style. But at the end of the day, the purpose of the buy is to produce ROI.

If your assertion is true, it logically follows that there is no distinction between the decision processes behind buying a tractor that produces ROI1 from a tractor that produces ROI2 and choosing among Designers because ROI informs both processes.

If this was true then design Clients are FUCKED. What they are paying for is ROI. If they dont' get it, they don't return. Simple as that.


This is what Aristotle would call a FALSE ANALOGY. The problem here is that Paris Hilton is a PROVEN moneymaker. A designer (without the benchmarks I discussed earlier in this thread) can hit 1:200 3 years ago and can barely hit over 1:5000 today. Is that worth the risk? Maybe... if market realities like PRICE is factored in.

Booo hooo hooo Wahhh wahhh wahhhh

My points apply to mainstream as well as adult.

Here's a quote from MADDOX that fits your attitude: JUST REPLACE THE WORK IMMIGRANT with the word COMPETITION / ROI COMPARISON

If you lose your job to an immigrant, it's probably because he or she was willing to work harder for less money. Don't want to pay them full wages? Then don't hire them. If they do equal work, then they deserve equal pay. It's just that simple, and I'm not going to sit back like every other racist piece of shit bitching about having to work harder because there's a little competition for my job, immigrant or otherwise. I know I can do my job better than anyone, and if an immigrant thinks he can do a better job than I can, I welcome him to try.

What kind of chicken shit pussy is afraid of competition? Can't get a job because you lost out to an immigrant? Well TOUGH SHIT. Nobody wants to pay you for your half-assed work if someone else can do it better. That's what America is all about. Our president may be a moron, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let any more jackasses sully the reputation of hard working Americans who are willing to work just as hard as anyone else with or without competition. If you can't cut it, then the people with money will pay it to someone else who can. Maybe if all you people bitching weren't such lazy, pathetic, blood sucking leeches, you'd get off of your dead ass and work HARDER to do a better job. Get some balls people. If you're too chicken shit and you can't cut it, then maybe it's you who doesn't deserve to live in America. Not the immigrants.





[/B][/QUOTE]

Boo Hoo Hooo. Stop crying!

:thumbsup

Casting aside emotionalism, any other thoughts on this?

I think what you and many people in this industry wrongly assume that somehow the designer will increase your sales just by sheer magic. A designer's job is just this: to take your marketing plan and apply an esthetically pleasing 'design' and effectively communicate why your product/service is superior or necessary so people will be more inclined to buy. As a customer you should still do your homework and know what your market expects.

The guy who 'designed' the very effective Coke can, is only one tiny cog in a huge marketing campaing involving lots of people, many of the more skilled marketers couldn't tell you the difference between a pixel and the Eiffel tower.

Stop relying on designer to be the only element in your marketing campaign. The designers job is to take YOUR plan and make it look good so your product sells more than simply having an empty page that says SEE SIG or some shit..

There is no science behind it, the science is in YOUR numbers, what you were selling before, and what you are selling after, but don't be lazy and expect the designer to be your consultant, marketing specialist, ad copy writer, and creative designer all for $10 an hour wtf

Information design means your designer is presenting your information in a pleasant way. 9 times out of 10 it will be under your direction and your revisions. It will be using your content. and You would have picked the designer from using Your judgement when looking at their portfolio.

Now if you want to pay me $500 for a 3 page tour. You'll get a 3 page tour that looks like it was done for $500. If you want to pay me $3k for a 3 page tour. It will look like it was done for $3k.

The difference you are looking for is a subjective one relative to time over cost divided by what you want.

If you go to a cheap tailor you get a cheap suit. You dont buy 10 cheap suits to see which is the best. You buy the expensive one that is altered and measured to fit your individual needs.

or something like that. :glugglug

absolutely dead on the money brother. :thumbsup

you get what you pay for. find a dope designer, pay them what they want, and they will never dissappoint you.

designers are artists and if they are made to feel less valuable than they are, thats how they will perform.

same goes for anyone thats an artist at what they do i guess.