CDSmith

I submitted this site: <a href="http://www.sunsetbeachbabes.com/index1.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.sunsetbeachbabes.com/index1.html</a>
To 5 of the big link sites, 5 days ago. Result? REJECTION without notice right across the board. Now tell me, what the fuck is so wrong with this site?
I HAVE:
NO fpa
NO popups
NO consoles
NO blind links
NO bullshit of any kind

I DO HAVE:
Quality content from sponsors
Original content of my own
A pretty good design
An original theme to the site

THE SITE IS CLEAN!! I specifically took the advice on the PK site and created a second index page, and I redesigned the main page as well, JUST so I could get listed.


Bottom line, is this site worth showing to surfers? I fucking think so, so WHAT is the major malfunction of these link sites? SHEESH, people here complain about tgp-owers having a "God" complex, what about the link sites? I put a ba-fucking-zillion hours into this particular site since it's inception, and I don't see where it is worthy of rejection by ANYONE.

PK? RR? GG? TOMMY? MARK??? Are any of you people alive out there? C'mon, cut the smaller guy a BREAK and at least tell me what I'm doing that's soooo wrong that you can't bring yourself to list me?
Hey, if you made a mistake in reveiwing me, no problem. Make it up to me by signing up under me for erasercash (All 5 of you)
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Exxxotica

You might check out your "Theresa" gallery...Im getting 404's

I think they like their buttons on your main site as well as the warning site.

Just my opinion.

If I were a surfer, I would enjoy it. Nice site.

Nymph

Sweetie, one possible reason you may not have gotten listed is that your galleries open in a new window...a lot of link site owners don't like that.

BTW, I think your site looks great

------------------
May the Force Be With YOU!!
Not a FUCKING Reseller!!
The Board of Force...Get Vectorized!!

DamageX

Your site ROCKS CD, hehe. I agree with the God-complex part. Maybe it's time for LinkList2?

------------------
Respect,
DamageX

Theo

some friendly notices
- use always onmouse overs to cover the refferal part of the link. Don't use anyother kind of onmouseovers,only the simple on to cover the refferal part of the link. ex. http://www.oliver-klozov.com/
- do not open galleries in new windows
- avoid click sponsors in linksites where the quality of traffic is good and it won't make you any serious money
- do not give so much content because you'll hurt both your click through ratio and the bandwidth
- Get ride of "Winning Sites" and right click protection
- Get ride of Sunset Beach Galleries (All Top-Model HQ Pics)

If you follow all of these, i'm 99% sure that you'll get top placements on all LLs, the layout is very good

[This message has been edited by Soul_Rebel (edited 08-13-2001).]

Chris R

I got two of my sites listed on Persian Kitty with no problem, but no one else liked 'em except for Richard's Realm, Wetplace, and Eskimo Pussy.

Your site looks very good, but I agree with the opening of the sites in different windows may be a problem.

Also, I personally can't stand the IE wipes. They were cool the first time I saw them, but I hate them with a passion now.

I notice you are using sponsor content for amateur pages, and maybe that is making them thing the oliver klosov sontent is sponsor as well. I do not know. I would not take it personally though - your site design is excellent - much better than most of the free sites I see. Did you actually get rejected by all of them? I thought I was by Richard's Realm, but started seeing traffic well after 7 days or so that I submitted it. Try wetplace too - not a lot of traffic, but good for link pop.

The next site you make - I would make it a little less busy and try submitting again. Also, I include a few stories on mine to seperate them from the competition. I think PK likes this (You can get 100 stories from Zipcontent for $25.00).

Out of curiosity - have you done well with Tittymax? I have done well with their other sites, but haven't promoted that one yet.

ammo325

CD,

Go here - http://www.adultnetsurprise.com/multiforum/main/

This is the Link lists webmaster board. Most of the heavys hang out here and will answer why it didn't get listed. Very helpful folks.

------------------
http://www.lostbush.com/sub.html

High conversion Cheerleader Fetish

XXXforU

Hi CD, thought I'd give you a hand this morning.

The initial page design looks good, except for all the buttons and other garbage on it with links to people whom let's face it will never send you a single hit.

Here's a few reasons I would guess you're not getting listed.

1) The page submited is a gateway page not your index.
2) Galleries open in new consoles.
3) Page transition effects.
4) Right click disabled.
5) Oliver content is a bit stale.

That's about all I can see wrong, hope this helps...

Peace,
-Paul

------------------
All Free XXXforU
Webmaster Submit
The Babe Archive
Fly Teen
69em - My Paysite, join now! 8-)

RockDaddy

I'm guessing (without even looking at the site) that the problem lies somewhere between the index and the .com (1) <--

Just a guess. I always email them and tell them to take a look at my index page which has GG, RR, TB, and the other big link sites and let me know which one they will send more traffic than and I will be happy to replace that recip with their on my next site.

I mean do the math. You have a limited number of recip spaces on your index page. You obviously are going to put recips up to the ones that are going to send you the most traffic.

Then Mr Link Site Owner who is 189 on my list of link sites and who probably only sends 20 hits a week, emails and says he requires a front page link.

I think those guys are cutting their own throats. If I put 12 or so recips on a mirrored page, then I think that is better than not getting a recip anywhere on my site.

I'm just ranting with you CD

RD

Xanobyte

I feel ya man, I also am struggling with my site for some attention. I like the look and the layout, very nice work. But the page transistion thing kills it for me, I have to agree with some of the other posts... nowadays, I see a transistion or a fader or something, I usually don't stick around to see what else it's going to do to me.
Other than that, I think it's hella nice.

------------------
It's all good.

[This message has been edited by Xanobyte (edited 08-13-2001).]

CDSmith

Whulp, I gots my work cut out for me then. (Again)

I've known about GG's board (linksmachine) for a while now, I have sites involved there for a long time now, but I wanted to RANT about this, and I also knew I could count on you guys to help me out

Okay, I'll go through all the points here so far....

With regard to the "index1.html" -- PK herself suggests doing this very thing if your real index page is doing things that break the link list's rules. I have a traffic purchase going on my index page, and in order to qualify for it I have to have a row of recip thumbs, 3 genuine links and 2 are blind. I KNOW I wouldn't get listed for that alone. But according to PK, I can make an index1.html.

I failed to catch the theresa gallery problem, but it's fixed now.

The target=_blank's will go for sure.

Page-transitions -- What, no one is allowed to have a little extra fancy crap anymore? I've seen the transitions on such sites as smut-train gallery post (wipe), Pass the Ass (fader), and a few other really amazing sites, and I sort of liked it. I think a site should be judged by the overal package, not for a small 1 or 2 second browser effect, but whatever, I'll lose those too, just to please the gods.

I thought about putting their buttons on the main page as well as the warning page, maybe I'll try that.

Links2 sounds.....interesting.

I'll get the sponsor's links moused-over and make sure that these pages have no other mouseovers.

Aviod click sponsors? I use a mix of per-click, per-signup and partner at all times. I don't think I want to be dictated to about what sponsors I can use. As long as their legal sponsors, why should anyone care? (and why would they make it their business?)

"Do not give so much content" ???? WTF? This is NOT a CJ site bro, it's a free softcore site. The more galleries you have, the more advertising you can offer. The links sites WANT you to have good content, which I do, so my question was why I'm not getting listed, not "am I not getting listed because I'm using too much bandwidth?"
I'll worry about my bandwidth usage, there are some areas of webmastering that I do know something about.

Get rid of "winning sites"....what? I'm not allowed to have a few trades??? Again, respectfully, WTF??? That's bullshit.

Get rid of all my galleries?? AGAIN, WTF??? rubraindeadorwhat? Why not just have an index page with no warning, no content, only links to the link sites, a few sponsor links and NOTHING of value to the surfer?? Soul, I hope like hell you're just fucking around with me here bro, but I'm a bit pissed right now so try and be serious for one fucking minute.

My content is a MIX of pics from 3 or 4 different sponsors, plus a few galleries of my own models' pics (original). Oliver Klozov content stale? Only to webmasters and die-hard porn-seekers. What about the tens-of-thousands of newbs that hit the net ever day? I can't see not getting listed because of some excellent content, so what if a few people have seen it before?

I have stories listed on the main page in the galleries section. All original, all mine.

I just started promoting tittymax, so I have no results as yet.

xxxfu -- "except for the buttons and other garbage on it...." Thanks for the help, but I think you're wrong on this point. There are a few things I feel rather passionate about, and those garbage-buttons are one of them. I place links to EFF, ASACP, my own ASAC (sends me hits) and the screening software links like "cyber-sitter" to contribute a little back to parents, children, and to my fellow webmasters. Calling such links garbage is, well, it's uncalled for. The other links are counter/trackers, sponsors' links and the main site title-image.

Right-click disabled because of cheating theiving bastards that copy sites like this and present them as their own. No more, no less. Btw, LOTS of sites disable right-click, including some pretty big ones. Don't ask for urls, I'm too fucking busy to go back-tracking looking for them. They're out there, YOU go look for em, they're not all that hard to find. Many many people are totally fed up with theiving asshole design stealers, not just me.

I'll make some changes and....try try again. Probably come back here with another rant later too Thanks all for the help and the very kind words about my work.

But first, I'm off to the bank with last week's cheques. Weeeeeee
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rhizome

That site's just way too confusing - I get a brain cramp trying to figure out which links lead to your galleries, which ones to sponsor galleries, which ones to your other sites, which ones to link lists, and which ones are just plain blind? Why not just keep it simple - do some targetting and split that site up into 4 or 5 smaller sites and make it easy to find the original content (don't be afraid to call your galleries, gallery 1 and gallery 2). And yes, open the links in the same window - this is a free site, not a cj.

Kimmykim

From a marketing standpoint, I see a few things that probably could be changed to make yourself some more $$ for the effort -- comments below...

1. Don't use numbered versions of index -- i.e. index1, index2, etc -- be creative, something like blonde or beaches or whatever in place of anything with numbers is less likely to indicate that you've made duplicate pages -- failing that then you might try using subfolders for each set of pages you are making -- i.e. domain.com/beach/index.html, domain.com/blondes/index.html, etc.

If you intend to leave the pages up and you do any kind of se work at all, getting as much description into the url is a good thing too.

2. The effects are probably a personal choice thing -- I'd try making versions with and without them and seeing what did better with the acceptances.

3. That's alot of graphics for a free site -- while it is a good looking site, remember that the idea is to move the traffic elsewhere just as quickly as you possibly can. Giving a guy the chance to stick around and not hit the paying sponsors isn't making you any money.

4. Content same as #3 -- if you want to keep that much stuff in it, then by all means make it an avs site and work it from that angle --

5. Make the surfer work to find the free porn. Not so much that you won't get listed, but a clear set of text links that direct him will save you on bw, make him less likely to keep sitting there without going to a sponsor (since he's not able to look at the pics and get a clear idea of what he's doing). You're building a mousetrap here, think like a cat, not a mouse When I first started in this business, Tommy (bookmarks) taught me to build free and avs sites, and if I didn't pare it down to what was minimally needed to get listed but make the sales, he had no hesitation in picking up the phone and calling me to yell in that awful NY accent about all the things I was doing wrong.

6. I would consider a totally different structure for the site itself, one with lots of duplicate entries that all led to the same gallery pages -- this way you don't use up your space with clutter -- page set one might get Tommy and 2 other smaller links lists as the recips, then on another site, put Greenie and 2 smaller ones, and so on -- the smaller guys will give you better placement since they see that they aren't fighting like hell to get any traffic from you against those big boys, and the big boys, well they know they are the ones sending you the traffic anyway.

7. Your first page is your first contact with the surfer -- where is the advertising? It should be in the space where your logo is! This is the prime spot to peel the surfer out and send him to a sponsor, especially those newbie surfers who've never seen a page before and are confused on what to click.

8. Where are your text links top and bottom of ALL the banners? Surfers see banners they don't think click -- you have to entice them to click and do your best to make the fucker want to click I notice you've got it on some of them but not all of them, and these links are what will make you money.

9. Why on this page -- http://www.sunsetbeachbabes.com/ok/blondes.html -- which is about blondes is Nikki Nova the main girl on the ad? She's not blonde -- you've got a surfer looking at blonde chicks, he is probably not going to be inclined to click a brunette on a banner.

10. I'd make a page called Links or Favorites or whatever that contains all the trade pages and non standard sponsor stuff instead of scattering it around -- you might even make a bogus link list of your own to do this and use one of your recips on each set of pages to push traffic over there -- remember that you can never send yourself too much traffic

11. Leave the counters to the inside pages. I think Paycounters a wonderful idea, and if the other counters aren't paying you then don't give up prime real estate to them. Same thing with the per click sponsors -- use them as a last resort with a free site, the quality of traffic should be better than tgp, so don't give your traffic away...

12. Last and maybe most importantly -- I can't figure out what the theme of this site is -- I see a beach type deal to begin with but then there are ebony girls, chicks on cars that aren't at the beach, lesbian centerfolds, and amateurs. You can't effectively target a surfer unless you narrow down what you're offering him -- make several free sites out of this, no more than 30 pics each (I wouldn't do more than 20 for anyone other than people that can send alot of traffic and require more) and narrow down the target and the advertising on them to match up to the content.

Well I know it looks like I've ranted here but I just thought to make a few suggestions -- this isn't a criticism of what you've done -- if there weren't alot of ways to make sales there wouldn't be alot of successful webmasters

Theo

look cdsmith,you asked for help and I gave you some tips I think will help you get listed easier and also will make you a better profit. Don't take it everything personal and try to be more polite next time. I'm not the one that makes the rules for linklists. If you follow the instructions I gave you, all LL will give you good placements (except PK who needs more content). I can bring here many experienced webmasters that will agree with my words and this is for one and only reason. They follow them and they're doing good. Honestly, I didn't like your reply.

XXXforU

CD, I believe you misunderstood what I was saying, I wasn't calling the links garbage, I merely meant that the buttons weren't needed. I too provide links to NetNanny, Cyberpatrol, Surfwatch and Safesurf on my index, but I only provide TEXT links. The index is there as a mere formality, use minimal graphics on that page. All the "newbies" will be hitting that page, as most your bookmarkers usually bookmark an internal page. Hit them with a sponsor banner and some juicy text right off the bat as they wait for the page to load!

KimmyKim, what are you giving away ALL the secrets on one post? I think you should divide that up into 3-4 posts so that new webmasters will have to search a bit.

Peace,
-Paul

Kimmykim

Hahahahaha! xxxforu -- once this thread gets to the pages in the back, they'll really have to search since most of the time I'm too busy with ratios and other assorted numbers to stop and take a look at any of the sites

dada

I think your site is great

but that's not a free site for link lists...
that is a site you want to use to convert traffic from all your other free sites.
If you want to see how a free site looks like go and make some searches on dmoz

Xanobyte

The design theives are not stupid though. If they want your design, they will simply view the source and take it, or even simpler, "File- Save As". And there ya go. Source, pics, script, css, and all. Open that fucker up in an editor and have at it. The only way you can truly stop the bulk of design theives is to create the entire thing in Shockwave and set your options to prevent opening by all but the creator. But that, of course, is not really a viable option for most porn webmasters. By disabling right click, all you really accomplish is pissing off some horny surfer cuz he can't save the pics to jerk off to later.



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It's all good.

RockDaddy

Excellent post Kimmy! All the things I wanted to say but was either too lazy or too selfish to type


RD

CDSmith

All I can say is, thank god for Kimmykim.

Give me half an hour or so, and I'll have that page cleaned up some.

Soul, telling someone to lose all of their link trades and content is....bizzare. Just what "experienced webmasters" are you referring to? As someone above said, this is NOT a CJ site, it is a FREE site, so some pages of content are not inappropriate, and having a few link trades for actual traffic is not inappropriate either.
Some of what you wrote may yet prove useful though, thanks. And sorry, I put a lot of work into this site over the past year, it used to see over 15k daily, so rejection is not someting I take well with regard to this particular site. I KNOW it has potential, and I know it's a good fun interesting site for surfers to come to (I've had email, believe me, I've had email) and it makes me the most money of ALL my sites, believe it or not. I got a bit pissy due to the big guy's obvious rejection of what I see as a pretty good site, and I am not without my own experience in this area.

I'll get busy, but one of my fears is that all sites end up looking the SAME, borrrringggg. MY logo on the index1 page IS the site, really. It sets it apart from all the "banner-banner-enter-leave-banner-banner" sites out there. I could care less about the b/w it uses, my deal is very very good where I'm hosted. ($24/mo CANADIAN)

I'll be bock...
<font face="Verdana">___________
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kush

Nice post Kimmykim, let me just reflect on a couple things and make small disagreements
If you're going to create a LOT of free sites, which is want you need to do to bring in more $, make mirror entry pages with subfolders of more generic names, like
free/index.html
host/index.html
xxx/index.html
Saves time and will work with lots of different types of sites. It's all about speed and accuracy - if somethign takes too long and really isn't work it then dont do it (I dont notice a significant difference from having niche-specific subfolder entry names)
Be very careful with this... if ANYTHING looks misleading then your chances of becoming listed significantly drop. (while misleading links increase clicks sometimes, they also GREATLY lower conversions) Dont make your content links STAND OUT on the page, but don't make them impossible to find either.
I disagree I'd put counter links ONLY on entry pages at the bottom of the page, below the enter link. This way you know which sites send you the most traffic (if any) and you can go from there.


------------------
Kush is brewing up a wicked $urpise for everyone...

Kimmykim

"And sorry, I put a lot of work into this site over the past year, it used to see over 15k daily, so rejection is not someting I take well with regard to this particular site. "
---------------------------

cdsmith -- why don't you seriously consider making the site into an avs? It wouldn't take much work to get it done, you might later even want to take it platinum or gold or whatever the one you choose calls it --

it really is way too chock full of stuff to be a plain old feeder site and if it'll convert the hits, then why not try the double whammy -- collect on the avs and on the upsells?

You know me, always trying to squeeze the most buck outta the surfer

Theo

i'm glad you realised my will that's why I'm going to explain you some more things in order to fully understand my words.
- Disable Right Click: LLs reviewers use right click when they preview your site, they automatically reject it for this reason. If someone wants to copy your site, he can view the source from the IE/Netscape options or do a simple save as. You don't gain anything this way, you just make your site more difficult to navigate and mad the reviewers.
- Get rid of trade: the traffic you get from LL is considered the most quality traffic you can get in a short term period unlike tgps. A good number of surfers come from search engines and by doing trades you're risking to trade them. Your main target should be to send them on the sponsor ASAP.
- Get rid of much content: use the minimum possible that will make you get listed, not a single picture more. I repeat "Your main target should be to send them on the sponsor ASAP".
"Experienced webmasters": Are the guys that make more than 2 years free sites and they shared with me great tips. Some of them which of course I didn't mention here make the difference. With their combined help I had my 1st free site listed on Tommys-Bookmarks and Greenguy bringing me 12 sales. I expect to post this site also in RR and get some more sales from there too. More sales than these guys got from a single site all these years. And of course the credits belongs to them and mostly to my friend McSpike which I consider him one of the top free site builders. He shared with me some valuable tips that i'm sure i would never figure even in 2 years from now.

[This message has been edited by Soul_Rebel (edited 08-13-2001).]

Kimmykim

not sure how I missed your post kush, I must have skipped right by it --

couple things I'm not sure are contrary points or perhaps you are just reiterating them?

"If you're going to create a LOT of free sites, which is want you need to do to bring in more $, "
------------------------
No IF here -- the only way to get ahead with feeder sites, gallery pages and standard avs is to have many many many many and then build some more.


"make mirror entry pages with subfolders of more generic names, like
free/index.html
host/index.html
xxx/index.html.....
It's all about speed and accuracy - if somethign takes too long and really isn't work it then dont do it ....'
----------------
Lists get pickier every day, I haven't had to deal with submissions on a daily basis in a long time now, but I read threads like these and I know they want way more than they did three years ago. In some cases I'm sure the subs dont work any more than the other way.


My comment about finding the porn was pretty clear on making sure it didn't keep you from a listing -- if you can't get traffic you can't make sales any way you look at it

As for the counters? I'll stick by what I said -- your host has stats, and one thing I am absolutely not going to change my mind about is the fact that free and avs sites need to be on paid hosting PERIOD. Link list and se traffic is way more productive than anything I hear on ratios from tgp or picpost traffic I wouldn't dream of wasting the traffic by giving it away to the free host.

I've got hundreds, probably even thousands of free sites and avs sites tucked away on cd down in my garage -- 85% of them template generated -- before I had software programs to do the substitutions for me, I went in and did search and replace on a mass scale to make the changes.

I used a little perl script to rename all my images and make them substituble too, based on the layout of the site and the structure of the html -- many of these sites ran cgi scripted ads which are instantly changeable with almost no one on my part, after I entered all the banners and link codes into rotation. Alot of work but once it was set up it would nearly run itself -- upload the images, change a few things around and be ready to submit... have enough different templates to not burn one up with over submissions...

I was on the phone today with Steve and one part of the conversation came around to how things that we take for granted are still new to the newbies -- and that one of the problems with the conversions might be that the newbies haven't learned how to market to the surfers they have just yet.

I still believe the same simple formula that worked two or three years ago would do just as well today with very little tweaking