Why pimpdog was banned!!

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  • DatingGold
    $6 PER EMAIL JOiN
    • Feb 2003
    • 13185
    #1

    Why pimpdog was banned!!

    IMO Lensman did it cause if he didn't Loryn could sue for a pretty penny.

    This is California and any court room would say her employer did nothing to stop the harassment, if he didnt ban pimpdog.

    GFY is a liability for Lensman, especially with degrading comments towards any female employee. hopefully things stay cool.

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    • European Lee
      Confirmed User
      • Dec 2002
      • 7133
      #2
      Originally posted by DatingGold
      GFY is a liability for Lensman, especially with degrading comments towards any female employee. hopefully things stay cool.
      Truth of the matter is any forum is a liability for any forum owner.

      Regards,

      Lee
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        Comment

        • Donny
          As you wish...
          • May 2002
          • 13754
          #3
          The real truth is that Lensman loves and respects his employee and Pimpdogg crossed the line with what he said.

            Comment

            • JustJen
              Confirmed User
              • Aug 2002
              • 1233
              #4
              Originally posted by DatingGold
              IMO Lensman did it cause if he didn't Loryn could sue for a pretty penny.

              This is California and any court room would say her employer did nothing to stop the harassment, if he didnt ban pimpdog.

              GFY is a liability for Lensman, especially with degrading comments towards any female employee. hopefully things stay cool.

              It is silly. I think most of the women here are capable of handling themselves and most women here are smart enough to know the GFY plays out.... but oh well.....


              icq:175766581

                Comment

                • boobmaster
                  So Fucking Banned
                  • Jul 2003
                  • 6185
                  #5
                  Originally posted by DatingGold
                  IMO Lensman did it cause if he didn't Loryn could sue for a pretty penny.

                  This is California and any court room would say her employer did nothing to stop the harassment, if he didnt ban pimpdog.

                  GFY is a liability for Lensman, especially with degrading comments towards any female employee. hopefully things stay cool.
                  Exactly how much shit was he giving her anyway?

                    Comment

                    • exposed
                      Confirmed User
                      • Aug 2004
                      • 1449
                      #6
                      OoOOooooO!
                      "I felt victimized by the Ian Eisenbergs of the world" - Mary Burger

                        Comment

                        • arial
                          Confirmed User
                          • Jul 2002
                          • 4012
                          #7
                          Originally posted by boobmaster
                          Exactly how much shit was he giving her anyway?
                          http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...adid=347918&s=

                            Comment

                            • fris
                              Too lazy to set a custom title
                              • Aug 2002
                              • 55705
                              #8
                              his epic trash lackeys will still be here defending him
                              Since 1999: 69 Adult Industry awards for Best Hosting Company and professional excellence.

                                Comment

                                • boneprone
                                  Hall Of Fame
                                  • Jan 2001
                                  • 34415
                                  #9
                                  For pimpdog its free marketing once again..

                                  For the next week everyone will be talking about em and it wont cost em a cent..

                                  Then in 3 weeks from now he'll be back and posting becasue the public backlash will be so great..

                                  Him and Loryn will become friends, and we'll start all over again..

                                  Appears Pimpdog is the master sheep hearder.. Hearding the sheep at all costs but he does it well and in bulk.

                                  Has been since day one.

                                  Its a shame but with the amounts of times he's done this over and over again and the amount of times lensman has unbanned him, he's made lensman look like the biggest sheep of all.

                                  I wonder when lens will realize that and be done with it.

                                  Anyhow I give it 3 weeks.. 5 weeks max..

                                  Just watch and mark my words. History repeats iteself..

                                  With pimpdog it has at least half a dozen times now.

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                                    Comment

                                    • pornJester
                                      Confirmed User
                                      • Mar 2001
                                      • 6138
                                      #10
                                      See sig


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                                        Comment

                                        • DatingGold
                                          $6 PER EMAIL JOiN
                                          • Feb 2003
                                          • 13185
                                          #11
                                          Originally posted by boneprone
                                          For pimpdog its free marketing once again..

                                          For the next week everyone will be talking about em and it wont cost em a cent..

                                          Then in 3 weeks from now he'll be back and posting becasue the public backlash will be so great..

                                          Him and Loryn will become friends, and we'll start all over again..

                                          Appears Pimpdog is the master sheep hearder.. Hearding the sheep at all costs but he does it well and in bulk.

                                          Has been since day one.

                                          Its a shame but with the amounts of times he's done this over and over again and the amount of times lensman has unbanned him, he's made lensman look like the biggest sheep of all.

                                          I wonder when lens will realize that and be done with it.

                                          Anyhow I give it 3 weeks.. 5 weeks max..

                                          Just watch and mark my words. History repeats iteself..

                                          With pimpdog it has at least half a dozen times now.
                                          his marketing efforts must pay off.. its hard to brand anything in this biz, so what he does probably works better.
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                                            Comment

                                            • Doctor Dre
                                              Too lazy to set a custom title
                                              • Jan 2001
                                              • 51692
                                              #12
                                              Off course he's gonna get unbanned ... I'm wondering sometimes if it's not a setup with adult.com lol

                                              His techniques are working ... and his program converts ... and he puts some life into the board

                                              So I see nothing wrong with that
                                              Originally posted by rayadp05
                                              I rebooted, deleted temp files, history, cookies and everything...still cannot view the news clip. All I see is that fucking gay ass music video from "Rick Roll". Anyone else have a different link to the news clip?

                                                Comment

                                                • baddog
                                                  So Fucking Banned
                                                  • Apr 2001
                                                  • 107089
                                                  #13
                                                  I think it would be a tough sell to try and sue your employer because of harrassment from a customer.

                                                  That would be like me going into McDonald's, giving the girl at the counter a hard time, and then her trying to sue her boss because he still sold me a Big Mac.

                                                  Not going to happen

                                                    Comment

                                                    • European Lee
                                                      Confirmed User
                                                      • Dec 2002
                                                      • 7133
                                                      #14
                                                      Originally posted by baddog
                                                      I think it would be a tough sell to try and sue your employer because of harrassment from a customer.

                                                      That would be like me going into McDonald's, giving the girl at the counter a hard time, and then her trying to sue her boss because he still sold me a Big Mac.

                                                      Not going to happen
                                                      In America you can sue anyone for anything no questions asked.

                                                      Winning the suit however is a different story

                                                      Regards,

                                                      Lee
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                                                        Comment

                                                        • Manowar
                                                          jellyfish  
                                                          • Dec 2003
                                                          • 71528
                                                          #15
                                                          Originally posted by baddog
                                                          I think it would be a tough sell to try and sue your employer because of harrassment from a customer.

                                                          That would be like me going into McDonald's, giving the girl at the counter a hard time, and then her trying to sue her boss because he still sold me a Big Mac.

                                                          Not going to happen
                                                          Nice comparison

                                                            Comment

                                                            • johndoebob
                                                              Confirmed User
                                                              • Mar 2004
                                                              • 3405
                                                              #16
                                                              Originally posted by boneprone
                                                              Just watch and mark my words. History repeats iteself..
                                                              Cause he's an advertiser here, if he'd be a nobody with no business relations to lensman he probably would never be unbanned again.

                                                                Comment

                                                                • pornguy
                                                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                  • Mar 2003
                                                                  • 62910
                                                                  #17
                                                                  Think about how many people show up just for the drama.

                                                                  There are people that love that and come by just for a daily dose.
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                                                                    • detoxed
                                                                      vip member
                                                                      • Jan 2003
                                                                      • 17798
                                                                      #18
                                                                      Originally posted by baddog
                                                                      I think it would be a tough sell to try and sue your employer because of harrassment from a customer.

                                                                      That would be like me going into McDonald's, giving the girl at the counter a hard time, and then her trying to sue her boss because he still sold me a Big Mac.

                                                                      Not going to happen
                                                                      Even if the employer didnt do anything to stop the harrassment? Say a guy kept coming into your business, and harrassed the girl on a daily basis, the boss doesnt care or do anything. She could easily sue and win.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • AGF
                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                          • Jul 2004
                                                                          • 971
                                                                          #19
                                                                          Originally posted by DonovanPhillips
                                                                          The real truth is that Lensman loves and respects his employee and Pimpdogg crossed the line with what he said.
                                                                          that just makes lensman a good boos
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                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • baddog
                                                                              So Fucking Banned
                                                                              • Apr 2001
                                                                              • 107089
                                                                              #20
                                                                              Originally posted by detoxed
                                                                              Even if the employer didnt do anything to stop the harrassment? Say a guy kept coming into your business, and harrassed the girl on a daily basis, the boss doesnt care or do anything. She could easily sue and win.
                                                                              you want to provide a reliance, case precedence perhaps?

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • stevecore
                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                  • May 2003
                                                                                  • 6130
                                                                                  #21
                                                                                  i really don't think you can say he was banned. he's just not allowed to post for awhile... he'll be back as always.

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • detoxed
                                                                                      vip member
                                                                                      • Jan 2003
                                                                                      • 17798
                                                                                      #22
                                                                                      Originally posted by baddog
                                                                                      you want to provide a reliance, case precedence perhaps?

                                                                                      Its the boss's job to stop sexual harrassment from happening in the workplace, no matter who is doing the harrassment. If it happens and the boss doesnt do anything to stop it, any jury would be sympathetic.

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • CET
                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                          • Jul 2003
                                                                                          • 2754
                                                                                          #23
                                                                                          Originally posted by baddog
                                                                                          I think it would be a tough sell to try and sue your employer because of harrassment from a customer.

                                                                                          That would be like me going into McDonald's, giving the girl at the counter a hard time, and then her trying to sue her boss because he still sold me a Big Mac.

                                                                                          Not going to happen
                                                                                          That analogy fails. If the customer gave the cashier shit, and the manager did nothing while the customer continued to give the cashier shit, that would be more comparable, and that is something that can be successfully sued.
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                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                            • CET
                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                              • Jul 2003
                                                                                              • 2754
                                                                                              #24
                                                                                              Originally posted by detoxed
                                                                                              Its the boss's job to stop sexual harrassment from happening in the workplace, no matter who is doing the harrassment. If it happens and the boss doesnt do anything to stop it, any jury would be sympathetic.
                                                                                              Especially if the recipient of the harassment told the boss and the boss enabled it.
                                                                                              Alt Journals, Blogs for Perverts!

                                                                                              Fitness and nutrition writer, and UNIX/Linux Sys Ad in training

                                                                                              "Just as a man who has fallen into a heap of filth ought to seek the great pond of water covered with lotuses, which is near by: even so seek thou for the great deathless lake of Nirvana to wash off the defilement of wrong. If the lake is not sought, it is not the fault of the lake."

                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                • xxxdesign-net
                                                                                                  My hips don't lie
                                                                                                  • Nov 2002
                                                                                                  • 10129
                                                                                                  #25
                                                                                                  Originally posted by DatingGold
                                                                                                  IMO Lensman did it cause if he didn't Loryn could sue for a pretty penny.

                                                                                                  This is California and any court room would say her employer did nothing to stop the harassment, if he didnt ban pimpdog.

                                                                                                  GFY is a liability for Lensman, especially with degrading comments towards any female employee. hopefully things stay cool.
                                                                                                  uh.. this is not the work place... their office is the work place.. and pimpdog is not an employee of Lensman...

                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                    • evanmorgan
                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                      • Aug 2004
                                                                                                      • 2490
                                                                                                      #26
                                                                                                      Originally posted by EpicJen
                                                                                                      It is silly. I think most of the women here are capable of handling themselves
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                                                                                                        • detoxed
                                                                                                          vip member
                                                                                                          • Jan 2003
                                                                                                          • 17798
                                                                                                          #27
                                                                                                          Originally posted by xxxdesign-net
                                                                                                          uh.. this is not the work place... their office is the work place.. and pimpdog is not an employee of Lensman...
                                                                                                          I'm sure part of her job is posting at GFY

                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                            • myneid
                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                              • Jan 2003
                                                                                                              • 736
                                                                                                              #28
                                                                                                              the lawsuite could be filed but i really think that it would not be won. if you look at the tone of gfy it goes right along with it.
                                                                                                              depends on the lawyers really.
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                                                                                                                • Halo18
                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                  • Jul 2004
                                                                                                                  • 312
                                                                                                                  #29
                                                                                                                  "Someone talked shit about me on the internet and nothing was done about it. I want to sue."

                                                                                                                  ...A lawyer would listen to that and take it seriously?


                                                                                                                  Seriously...no sarcasm, I'm asking.

                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                    • baddog
                                                                                                                      So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                      • Apr 2001
                                                                                                                      • 107089
                                                                                                                      #30
                                                                                                                      Originally posted by detoxed
                                                                                                                      Its the boss's job to stop sexual harrassment from happening in the workplace, no matter who is doing the harrassment. If it happens and the boss doesnt do anything to stop it, any jury would be sympathetic.
                                                                                                                      where was the sexual harrassment?

                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                        • baddog
                                                                                                                          So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                          • Apr 2001
                                                                                                                          • 107089
                                                                                                                          #31
                                                                                                                          Originally posted by CET
                                                                                                                          That analogy fails. If the customer gave the cashier shit, and the manager did nothing while the customer continued to give the cashier shit, that would be more comparable, and that is something that can be successfully sued.
                                                                                                                          For what?

                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                            • baddog
                                                                                                                              So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                              • Apr 2001
                                                                                                                              • 107089
                                                                                                                              #32
                                                                                                                              Originally posted by CET
                                                                                                                              Especially if the recipient of the harassment told the boss and the boss enabled it.
                                                                                                                              okay, you are blonde I guess . . . where was the sexual harrassment?

                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                • cali_22
                                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                  • Oct 2002
                                                                                                                                  • 2330
                                                                                                                                  #33
                                                                                                                                  i doubt he ment it he was prolly drunk or something

                                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                                    • MicroChick
                                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                      • Nov 2002
                                                                                                                                      • 1277
                                                                                                                                      #34
                                                                                                                                      Lensman does his best to eliminate the harassment of females. He has protected the contestants for the Miss GFY Contest, and he is trying to protect Loren.

                                                                                                                                      Baddog, as usual, you don't know what the hell you are saying. If an asshole harasses your employee over and over and you do nothing to stop it, you are as guilty as the harasser. Why don't you get off your lazy ass and look up the legal research yourself.

                                                                                                                                      Epic Jen, it's true that women should be able to take care of themselves on GFY, or look for a different board. However, Loren is not just another poster, she is part of the Lensman team. Lensman did the right thing by protecting her from extreme verbal abuse from a clown who is a worthless attention seeker.

                                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                                        • baddog
                                                                                                                                          So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                                          • Apr 2001
                                                                                                                                          • 107089
                                                                                                                                          #35
                                                                                                                                          Originally posted by cali_22
                                                                                                                                          i doubt he ment it he was prolly drunk or something
                                                                                                                                          ignorance is no excuse . . . and you obviously were not here for it . . .he knew what he was doing

                                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                                            • Manowar
                                                                                                                                              jellyfish  
                                                                                                                                              • Dec 2003
                                                                                                                                              • 71528
                                                                                                                                              #36
                                                                                                                                              Originally posted by detoxed
                                                                                                                                              Its the boss's job to stop sexual harrassment from happening in the workplace, no matter who is doing the harrassment. If it happens and the boss doesnt do anything to stop it, any jury would be sympathetic.
                                                                                                                                              Sexual Harrasment ?

                                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                                • baddog
                                                                                                                                                  So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                                                  • Apr 2001
                                                                                                                                                  • 107089
                                                                                                                                                  #37
                                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by MicroChick
                                                                                                                                                  Lensman does his best to eliminate the harassment of females. He has protected the contestants for the Miss GFY Contest, and he is trying to protect Loren.

                                                                                                                                                  Baddog, as usual, you don't know what the hell you are saying. If an asshole harasses your employee over and over and you do nothing to stop it, you are as guilty as the harasser. Why don't you get off your lazy ass and look up the legal research yourself.

                                                                                                                                                  Epic Jen, it's true that women should be able to take care of themselves on GFY, or look for a different board. However, Loren is not just another poster, she is part of the Lensman team. Lensman did the right thing by protecting her from extreme verbal abuse from a clown who is a worthless attention seeker.
                                                                                                                                                  I knew I was going to regret clearing my ignore list . . . welcome back to it you dumb bitch

                                                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                                                    • detoxed
                                                                                                                                                      vip member
                                                                                                                                                      • Jan 2003
                                                                                                                                                      • 17798
                                                                                                                                                      #38
                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by baddog
                                                                                                                                                      where was the sexual harrassment?

                                                                                                                                                      That was just an example, harrassment, sexual harrassment, doesnt matter.

                                                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                                                        • baddog
                                                                                                                                                          So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                                                          • Apr 2001
                                                                                                                                                          • 107089
                                                                                                                                                          #39
                                                                                                                                                          Originally posted by Manowar
                                                                                                                                                          Sexual Harrasment ?
                                                                                                                                                          exactly

                                                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                                                            • detoxed
                                                                                                                                                              vip member
                                                                                                                                                              • Jan 2003
                                                                                                                                                              • 17798
                                                                                                                                                              #40
                                                                                                                                                              Originally posted by Manowar
                                                                                                                                                              Sexual Harrasment ?
                                                                                                                                                              EXAMPLE.

                                                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                                                • baddog
                                                                                                                                                                  So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                                                                  • Apr 2001
                                                                                                                                                                  • 107089
                                                                                                                                                                  #41
                                                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by detoxed
                                                                                                                                                                  That was just an example, harrassment, sexual harrassment, doesnt matter.
                                                                                                                                                                  well yeah, I think it matters a lot

                                                                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                                                                    • detoxed
                                                                                                                                                                      vip member
                                                                                                                                                                      • Jan 2003
                                                                                                                                                                      • 17798
                                                                                                                                                                      #42
                                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by baddog
                                                                                                                                                                      well yeah, I think it matters a lot
                                                                                                                                                                      Want to get technical? he called her a stupid bitch.

                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.uwec.edu/affirm/Affirmative/harrassment.htm


                                                                                                                                                                      Thats sexual harrassment.

                                                                                                                                                                      The following are examples of behaviors which are generally viewed as sexual harassment when they are unwanted.

                                                                                                                                                                      Name calling, such as "bitch," "whore," and "slut"

                                                                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                                                                        • Halo18
                                                                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                          • Jul 2004
                                                                                                                                                                          • 312
                                                                                                                                                                          #43
                                                                                                                                                                          Originally posted by baddog
                                                                                                                                                                          I knew I was going to regret clearing my ignore list . . . welcome back to it you dumb bitch
                                                                                                                                                                          he said dumb bitch!

                                                                                                                                                                          I'm totally telling...

                                                                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                                                                            • tranza
                                                                                                                                                                              ICQ: 197-556-237
                                                                                                                                                                              • Jun 2003
                                                                                                                                                                              • 57559
                                                                                                                                                                              #44
                                                                                                                                                                              Finnaly he was banned..... Who cares about the reason??
                                                                                                                                                                              I'm just a newbie.

                                                                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                                                                • MicroChick
                                                                                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                  • Nov 2002
                                                                                                                                                                                  • 1277
                                                                                                                                                                                  #45
                                                                                                                                                                                  Detoxed, don't waste your time trying to explain harassment to doggy man. He harasses women all the time, especially those who ignore him. Baddog's big thing is telling the world that everyone who disagrees with him is on his ignore list, yet he conveniently wipes out the names of those on his ignore list weekly.

                                                                                                                                                                                  You see, doggy wanted to be an attorney a lifetime ago. He took a few law classes like MikeyAI from Oprano, and now he claims to be an expert on the fine points of harassment.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Doggy, why not give your computer a break and take your little cheapo camera to the beach and take some cute shots of pretty women (with their consent) and then return to GFY to show your stuff. Once in a while you do come up with some decent photos.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                                                                                    • detoxed
                                                                                                                                                                                      vip member
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Jan 2003
                                                                                                                                                                                      • 17798
                                                                                                                                                                                      #46
                                                                                                                                                                                      steps out of the thread

                                                                                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                                                                                        • MicroChick
                                                                                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                          • Nov 2002
                                                                                                                                                                                          • 1277
                                                                                                                                                                                          #47
                                                                                                                                                                                          Halo, doggy breath has called me many names. Baddoggy !!

                                                                                                                                                                                          Doggy goes with the flow. He gets into trouble everywhere he goes if someone disagrees with him. He becomes defensive and starts attacking without merit.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Baddog, I have a suggestion for you. Bill Handel graduated from an unacredited law school in Southern California, and he has become a millionaire by calling people names on KFI-AM radio. Why don't you give him a call and find out the name of his law school. I've been told they take scum like you for the right price. Get some education, and then return to tell us what harassment means.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                                                                                            • pornstar2pac
                                                                                                                                                                                              Omaha Hi/Lo
                                                                                                                                                                                              • Nov 2003
                                                                                                                                                                                              • 17380
                                                                                                                                                                                              #48
                                                                                                                                                                                              Originally posted by DatingGold
                                                                                                                                                                                              IMO Lensman did it cause if he didn't Loryn could sue for a pretty penny.

                                                                                                                                                                                              This is California and any court room would say her employer did nothing to stop the harassment, if he didnt ban pimpdog.

                                                                                                                                                                                              GFY is a liability for Lensman, especially with degrading comments towards any female employee. hopefully things stay cool.
                                                                                                                                                                                              that may be true. first good thing I've heard from in a while
                                                                                                                                                                                              Trump haters gonna hate. that's all they can do

                                                                                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                                                                                • Shoplifter
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Richest man in Babylon
                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Jan 2002
                                                                                                                                                                                                  • 5849
                                                                                                                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by DonovanPhillips
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The real truth is that Lensman loves and respects his employee and Pimpdogg crossed the line with what he said.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  A gentleman would never say anything like that at all to a woman. The manners and attitudes of 90% of the posters here make them seem like pure nouveaux riche trash.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  As if a few zeros in the bank are the measure of the man.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyways if it puts a stop to this sort of atmosphere here I am all for a mass purge.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I Like Blondes

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                                                                                                                                                                                                    • baddog
                                                                                                                                                                                                      So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                                                                                                      • Apr 2001
                                                                                                                                                                                                      • 107089
                                                                                                                                                                                                      #50
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by detoxed

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Name calling, such as "bitch," "whore," and "slut"
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Defining sexual harassment is not easy. Individuals see it from their own vantage point, based on their unique experiences, and context is important.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I think it would be a tough sell . . . who knows

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