Im trying to understand exaclty what you mean here.

It's Not extracting more sales from the surfers you say? (makes sense, CCs doesn't get invented cause of trading).

But yet you say sales go up?

In my above basic example with site A and B, just how exaclty would the sales go up for both just by switching some traffic?

Im not out to bash skimming as a method, I just want to understand what the users of it find so good about it.

How hard it's to understand?
..or are you playing dumb?

As hard as it might be to understand TGP's are created to make the TGP OWNER more money, not the sponsor. Now, if you get 1000 visitors per day you have 1000 opportunities to sell. If you get 10000 visitors, you get 10000 opportunities. Granted those 10000 might have been someplace else and not buy.. but so could those 1000. People don't just magically appear from thin air. Why do people trade anywaysm, hard links or skimming.. the point is to grow your TGP so you'll have the opportunity to trade with new and bigger sites, and again get fresh traffic coming in. If everything goes well and people like your site (the new people coming in) they might become bookmarkers, and then you have one 'free' person you can send again and receive more fresh people..


I feel dumb explaining the very principles of trading that has been around for years to ppl. Please... try to understand. Better yet, if you don't own a TGP or aren't a sponsor.. it doesn't concern you, so jump off the bandwagon.:2 cents:

you're looking at it from the tgp industry as a whole. whats good about it is from the individual perspective, they can create a tgp with more traffic by skimming which results in more sales.

now to your example, skimming could in theory increase sales to say 11 or more. if the surfer didn't find what he wanted on site A, maybe he'll find it on site B. a sort of tgp synergy. whether or not it works in practice, who knows it would be fairly hard to measure with accuracy.

hah, calm down there cowboy, we're just having a discussion.

Of course the TGP is created to make the TGPowner money, that's not what we're talking about.

I can see the point in trading if you run a better site then the ones you're trading with. Send away a surfer that doesn't like what he sees and closes down but get a fresh one back that will think your site is the shit and stay.

"People don't just magically appear from thin air."

No, but from google ;).

Actually what this thread was really about from the start was that some ppl claimed that using sponsorcontent to promote their skimms (and not the sponsors sites) was ok since it generated more sales for that particular sponsor in the end anyhow. (win-win).

I fail to see how and why that should be the case.

That it's better for the TGPowner is clear to see, but that wasn't the basic disagreement that this thread got started because of.

Seems there's just as many clueless people here as on GG's board when it comes to TGP's.

I only read the first page of this thread but I can't believe some of the arguments.

In the words of the infamous Irwin M. Fletcher "Maybe you guys need a refresher course"

Cowboy eh? lol. I'm not upset. I just find it amazing how many don't have a clue. :)

Your site does NOT have to be better than the next guys to trade traffic. Many people I know have the principal of getting rid of surfers as soon as possible. Therefor adding volume to your site.

Targetting SE traffic to TGP's isn't a way to grow a site.

As for the original topic... Think, it's pretty obvious if you give it some thought.

a finnish cowboy? hmm, finnish cowboy twinks?

If you think I'm a twink you need to check your gay vocabulary.

mmmm gay cowboys, yumm.

You might be good with trading and running paysites. My arena is google. I do have free sites but trading with blindlinks somehow doesn't arouse me. Maybe I've just missed the potential.

Seems to be a obcession with "growing" sites, by any means. What good are thoose numbers if you have to send away the majority? Whatever the surfer could expect to find on that other site, couldn't you just add that yourself?

Each time you send someone away, sure, you get a new surfer back. But couldn't you as well be sending away a sale?

As for the original topic, which I felt was the major defence from TGPowners that using sponsorcontent in skimmingthumbs was ok since it would generate more sales for the sponsors in the end,(win-win), I still haven't heard any good arguments against me. But oh, nevermind.

What don't you get? As the site grows, more traffic goes to the galleries. A 60% skim on a 10K TGP sends 6K to the galls and a 60% skim on a 100K TGP sends 60K to the galls.

If a TGP grows it's good for the site owner and the sponsors he pushes.

It's just funny how I get more money the more I get traffic.
Skimming = more traffic
When I make money the sponsor makes money
Skimming = more money for sponsor

I can't understand the hard thing about this.

Let's start from the beginning of a new site, and say the owner has 0 traffic and doesn't know google.

How is he to promote a sponsor? Getting traffic? Great! Let's do that? How? Let's put a link to shemp.com, link-o-rama.com, worldsex.com and a few other places and see the traffic flow in? No? Why not? because you're not sending them anything.. uh oh.. where can you send when you have none?

Let's buy some!! okay. We buy 100k hits. We have a fucking great site with a toplist. We take 10k hits/day.. out of those 10k, 3k clicks to toplist and the sites on the other end send 4k back to us since our traffic was targeted (toplist, not blind). So, that 10k purchased traffic ends up being 14k right? Now this goes on for 10 days and our traffic is nice and growing. The feeding ends!! oh no.. say we have 20k hits/day out of which 10k click on toplist (very generous number). We get 12k back.. So our traffic drops, right?
This is what happens after the feeding ends:
day 1: 20k in -> 10k trades -> 40k galleries
day 2: 12k in -> 6k trades -> 24k galleries
day 3: 8k in -> 4k trades -> 16k galleries
day 4 : 6k in -> 3k trades -> 12k galleries
etc etc.. get the point?

NOW.. let's say that same site skims

we buy that 10k/day for 10 days
The first day we send out 15k hits to trades of the 10k we get in.. and so forth, traffic keeps growing = long term money

this is what happens when feeding ends (although the numbers would be bigger than 20k in the beginning.. just making this so it's comparable). Also as the traffic is skimmed it's lower prod on the other site, lesser returns.

day 1: 20k in -> 30k trades -> 30k galleries
day 2 : 25k in -> 33k trades -> 33k galleries
day 3: 27k in -> 35k trades -> 33k galleries


Can you NOW figure out why it'd make more money for the sponsor? ..or do I have to draw you a picture? You also need to stop thinking this TGP as a whole, but instead concentrate on ONE tgp.

I'm thru with this thread.. if you don't get it, you don't get it... but as a sponsor I have NO objections whatsoever on having our hosted galleries on a tgp that skims 90% 80% 10% as long as the thumbs go to our galleries or trades. it's free traffic. We're not paying the bandwidth on the thumb they have on their site:2 cents:

In my theory there's X sales per day on the net. If a shitload of TGPs start sharing traffic between them and therefore pumping up their hits doesn't make that global sale# go up or down.

Meaning there's no black magic process where sponsors gains from TGPs using their content "illegally" to skim.

hits to galleries should be something likewise.

--------
siteA has 1000 hits. 50% skim.

500 => siteX
500 => galleries
Gets 500 back from siteX. 50% skim.

250 => siteX
250 => galleries
and repeat. in the end that "traffic session" it will be 1000 hits to the galleries right?
--------

--------
siteB has 1000 hits. 0% skim.
1000 => galleries.
same as first example.
--------

Why would the global amount of clicks to galleries be higher just because TGPs skim?

Who gives a fuck about global numbers?
See my post above and try to understand it. Besides your numbers are off. 1000 non-skim and 1000 skim site are not comparable. as one is stable traffic, and one should be growing by the day.

Regardless of the debate for and against thumb preview TGP traffic trading methods... each to his own patch of thin ice. :2 cents:

The sponsor was upset about the use of a thumb being used to send traffic to a URL which attempted to install something Norton didn't like and he didn't appreciate the skimming for trades off his content.

The sponsor contacts the affiliate and the hosting company asking for the thumb to be removed.

In the normal scheme of things the host would have informed their client that there was a problem and not closed down the account without fair investigation.

But the host was actually a FREE HOST so they just switched the guy off.

I've read it twice. All your numbers are somewhat confusing.

About global numbers, guess it's my way of attacking the subject mentaly.

If there is, like I think, a static number of ppl with CCs ready to buy porn (sales) per day (even though it get's divided into different sites/accounts) it's mathematicly impossible for everyone to gain extra $$$ from trading.

Someone has to loose sales for another to gain them.

siteA with 5 sales per day starts trading with siteB with 5 sales per day can Not magicly produce 20 sales per day just cause they switch/recycle traffic? And the same should go for a more complex trade setup.

You send traffic around and inflate certain hit logs everywhere but your example and the following conclusion (that skimming auto makes you more cash) feels impossible as a generic example (since someone has to loose for someone else to gain).

there isn't a static number for one.
..and my numbers couldn't be clearer.

If you don't have a clue on how tgp's work nowdays, why do you argue?

I do have a clue about tgps. And google. Trading is still somewhat vodoo for me. I argue cause I want to learn.

So you're saying that since sites skimm there's more sales on a whole then if they shouldn't?

tgp1: 5 sales/day
tgp2: 5 sales/day
tgp3: 5 sales/day

add trade:

tgp1: 10 sales/day
tgp2: 10 sales/day
tgp3: 10 sales/day

? (or other numbers but the point beeing that the total sales are higher after the trades started)

You think the internet is static? There's x number of people with cc's on the web today and that's how many there will be next month and next year.

Your logic is severely flawed and I don't think you're gonna figure this out. It's been explained perfectly by tgf.

No. Skimming has nothing to do with the amount of sales per day, but the amount of CC users are increasing byt the day. Therefore, traffic = money

You're missing the point all together.
Forget about tgp1 tgp2 tgp3
Just concentrate on your OWN tgp.. you don't have to care what others do.

Therefore, you have 50k/day skimmed traffic you make 5 sales/day.. now, wouldn't you rather grow that to 100k/day and make 10 sales per day?

If you have a 5k non-skimming site and make 5 sales per day, wouldn't you rather grow it to 10k/day for 10 sales?

Guess which is easier.

Now you missunderstood me.

What I meant was for ANY given day, there's ~X (give or take a few) amount of sales that all the pornpeddlers out there will share.

Fair enough, but everyday that number grows and if your traffic grows with it (thru traffic trades and skimming) then you're signups will also increase.

Wouldn't you rather have a larger amount of those on your site than smaller amount.

More visitors on your site, more potential customers. I *really* don't understand why you have such difficulties grasping this.

To the simple question "More visitors is of course better?" I would of course say yes.
But thoose IN visitors comes at a price -- sending away visitors OUT. That makes the issue complex.
Your OUT is tgpB's IN who thinks exactly like you. (hey, more skim, more $).

And if both you and the guys you're trading with are Gaining sales from thoose trades, it's like $$$ is created out of thin air from trading. $$$ that shouldn't have been there if the trading wasn't there. I think that's the fact I have a hard time grasping.

Yes you still think im still rambling from the global perspective (and more about sales then traffic) but the global perspective is just made up by all the single units (applying your same rules of logic to all).

I do see your points, so you dont need to explain more.

But maybe it's not so complicated. Maybe sales Are created cause of trading. Sharing common traffic exposes the surfers to more TGPs and he'll find something on tgpB that he didn't find on the tgpA. And if the tgpA hadn't traded away that surfer he would had put his CC back in the wallet and went to sleep. Meaning the trade actually "created" a sale.


When I start to trade I'll hit you up on ICQ for a gothrough. Maybe I can teach you som SEO hah :winkwink:

Argh.. Sales are NOT created from thin air. Trading does NOT create sales. TRAFFIC creates sales. More traffic = more sales

Now, as for traffic coming in at a price. The principal of trading is that your trades make YOUR site grow. So a hit you send out, you should get more back (it doesn't always work like this but it should). IF that was not the case then there wouldn't be a point in trading.. but the WHOLE point of it is to get more visitors.

There was a thread on that earlier that i saw.

trading creates traffic (makes your site grow)

traffic creates sales.

..but trading doesn't create sales?

it's been going on for years.

do I think it's right NO.

Lazy asswipes.

Thanks man i love you so much.

yep I know. that alone should be bad enough 2 loose his hosting.

come on man!!! :1orglaugh

You most likely WOULD see more sales since you are showing the surfer more options. Maybe he comes to your site and it features small tits mostly.. he doesn't like small tits, maybe the next site he gets skimmed to has a great big tits gallery that catches his eye?

Sponsors could always ask tgp's that use trade scripts to kindly not use their galleries; I am sure that more than a handful of others would go out of their way to make up for the empty real estate.

Comparing trading to stealing, as I read in this thread earlier, is insane if you ask me. Most of the surfers that are skimmed, at least in the larger networks, are not forced into any pop up hell or fraudulent conditions. They can easily backout and reclick the thumb.

I understand your point Elli and it isn't the first time I have seen it posted by someone such as yourself. I just think you have to look at it from a little more logical perspective: it is a part of the business hiearchy now, and it is not going away anytime soon. There are far enough sponsors, sites and what not that would gladly take the place of those that did not want to be placced on sites that trade. A lot of large sites trade.

Just my 2 cents however, certainly not calling you out because I do understand how it may appear....

See you in Florida :winkwink:

wow I'm truly amazed that their are just as many people on GFY that are out of the loop in how TGP's work..

I think one of the biggest things some of the people calling wolf here are missing is this...

Say I have a site that is set at 70% skim as my sites are. I send 70% of my hits to galleries and 30% to traffic trades. What I believe some of you unaware of how TGP's work are missing. Is most guys open the galleries and trades in a new window. So just because you do send a surfer to another page, doesn't mean you lost him.

He may click around on your trade and come back and click more on your site, therefore giving you twice the benefit of more traffic and clicks to galleries. On top of this, TGP surfers know that if they click a thumb and get a trade, they can continue to click that thumb and they will eventually get to that gallery. It's not like the thumb is 100% blind clicks, the surfer will see the gallery if he clicks the thumb a few times.. So calling this content theft is way off..

I skim traffic and I play with google a bit on my TGPs.. I will give you a example of both sources of traffic across one of my sites..

I pull roughly 3k a day to this one site via SE traffic, that traffic is generally has a productivity of around 3.5-4.0% meaning that traffic produces 12k a day to either trades or galleries (if you take out 30% sent to trades that's somewhere around 9k day going to galleries from my SE traffic)..

Now on that very site I traffic trade, it's not a big site but has roughly 25k a day in traffic trades.. which has a rough estimate of 2.0- 2.5% productivity. Meaning that 25k turns into 50k in clicks to both galleries and trades. If you then take out the 30% as above for trades that leaves me with 35k going to galleries and potential sales.

Now my math may be off just a bit but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that 35k to galleries is better than 9k.. we are talking almost 4 times the amount of traffic per day produced, by skimming on my site. Now I will agree SE traffic is of course better than traffic traded on TGP's but face the facts, their is a limited amount of search traffic out there and a small percentage of guys have that wired up. However traffic coming from traffic trading is almost an endless supply.

bump so more people can get frustrated :)

:1orglaugh

Jebus, is this an amusing thread. I actually thought that most people here knew how trading worked.

The 2004 surfer is perfectly used to trades, and being rediected to other sites. It's all good as long as they are CLEAN sites.

Surfer can always back out and go back where they came from!

Now LOOK, let's take the averages of the above statement:
If that is the case (meaning surfer comes back to me), the productivity of that surfer on the other TGP will be 0 and I won't be getting anyone in return (since productivity is 0), because he likes my TGP more, and he stays here!
BUT if he likes the other TGP more, I get credited for productivity and get a productive surfer(s) back! The better productivity, the more surfers I get back in return.

It's a god damn win-win situation that both improves traffic and gives you quality surfers in return!

And if a sponsor is stupid and doesn't realize that, and doesn't like me using a thumb to send more traffic to them, I can find another one :thumbsup

You hit the nail here :) (it was about time ;))

so when the sponsor complains he's a fool or doesn't know the game or is a newbie or whatever name, because it's too hard to understand that TGP Owner is looking to make money from sponsor's effort without something in exchange (at least secure, all hypothetical theories are another discussion, I'm arguing with just simple plain facts). btw, I had linklists and TGPs since 1997, I'm also a program owner, so I hope I can express an opinion ;)

I think this thread has taken some good points in consideration. Plus, I'm sure that right now there are some sponsors or content producers going behind big thumbs TGPs, after all this one at GG board may have no TOS, but 99.99% of sponsors I know have very clear TOS, and of those, at least 90% say "content cannot be cropped or altered, only resized" "content can be used only to promote our site" and/or "you cannot use this content in other domain but ours".

As for the "everybody's doing it, so it's OK" argument, try to explain that to a judge. Same said spammers fined with multimillion dollars, or RJB Telcom (maxcash) when fined by FTC, and they lost big time. The fact that MadThumbs started this trend doesn't means it's OK, legal or not subject to discussion/revision, it only means they started the trend. Nothing more. Nothing less. All other concepts is plain subjectivism, and if you ever had something with lawyers or courts, you'll know by now that subjectivism is the mother or losses.

I've a lot more considerations on this, but for now let's see how this goes. I'm just pointing this to help people find a solution to an eventual matter, else there's a quite big possibility you'll find another Acacia. And who will lose? The honest and well intended, the usual players who knows all the tricks cannot even be located or they've enough money to answer back.

As for Crockett's initial post, it seems like what you think is so clear is not shared by a lot of people on at least 2 boards :winkwink:

btw, if you want to send traffic to us using our content, I'll gladly give you an express consent to do it so you are sure you'll avoid future trouble :)

interesting, never thought about this :helpme

Damn... I never realized so many people didn't like money.

harvey you are right it's truly amazing that people still don't get the benefit this is for all involved, I guess a lot of people still live in 1998... however as much as you can try to justify what you are trying to say. There is one simple clear fact.. with this topic on 3 boards that I know of.. I haven't seen a single sponsor other than the one the orginal post was started by, come out and tell TGP's whom skim traffic with thumbs, to not send them hits because they are cheaters or content thief's..

In fact several have posted in the various topics to send them your traffic if the other sponsors don't want it.. So all in all I think that should clear it up for everyone as the sponsors are the ones that send the checks. So you can wink and call it illegal or what ever but the sponsors just don't seem to mind the traffic :winkwink: