HAHAHAHAHA yeah I know some good choreographers too. You know this is just forms being practiced in a school somewhere right? It has nothing to do with real fighting. Kung Fu looks pretty and graceful too, but when the other guy isn't cooperating it's a whole different story.


http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...wnload&ci d=1

here's some BJJ guys against KF and Karate guys, and a clip of a pressure point guy trying to knock out someone besides his own students. It doesn't work so well.

For BJJ guys kicking the crap out of Aikido guys you need the Gracies in Action tapes because I'm too lazy to search for online clips.

You mean the same tapes of the guys that have all their information highly inflated like their weight and heights? The ones that most real martial artists NEVER enter nor would ever enter even with the big pay outs? The ones with story lines and antics becoming more and more like wrestling? Most martial artists watch this stuff just because we enjoy conflict but UFC and even the once venerable K1 have fallen to the allurement of money. The Gracies are a respected family in most circles of fighting but even the old man has been beaten before as has the poster boy Hoyce, you win some and you lose some. I will say that I personally judge an art on how well common people can do it, how long you have to train to be proficient and its general efficiency against multiple forms of skilled and "unskilled" fighters.
I trained in TKD and Karate first, they were crap, it takes forever be fighting efficient and you have to weed out all the bad things you will learn like kicks over the head, mentally going over and picking strikes, POINTS SPARRING. I train in boxing now, very unatural and not effective against anyone who is going to kick or pick something up and hit you with it, just good for mancho toe to toe guys or in the ring where you can use endurance and the ropes. The day I walked out of my first training day in my kung fu school i had a back fist that would break a nose, I had been shown how to punch with way more power, control and efficiency by rolling my fist over and a ridge hand that would stop most people from breathing for a second. It took my natural ability and cleaned it up and made it effective, this is as much the teacher as the art itself. If you devote the time the originators put into developing of the art you will be a great fighter, but people have work and a lack of ethic and discipline now so i go with arts that allow you to learn how to defend youself as second nature and can be practiced while still having a life. These have worked well for people I know and are EXCELLENT because I have and will devote major chunks of my life to it giving me an advantage over other fighters.

:1orglaugh

Are you kidding me? I love the way they all do the over hand punch and just blindly run at the defender.

And how they all wait their turn during the multiple attacker part.

If I trained hard for 10-15 years, I wouldn't want to end up like that.

one last time and then I'm putting you in the loony file:

Kung Fu guys have fought in the UFC. They got whipped, easy and fast, as if they had no training at all. Which part of that is so difficult to understand? HERE is a clip of a KF guy getting pOWNED by a BJJ guy. You can find these on any martial arts site.

here's another clip of a Wing Tsun guy getting owned, this time in an early UFC. All the fights with these guys against submission fighters go the same way. Takedown, sidemount, lights out for KF guy. Every single time. This is a particularly brutal beatdown.

http://www.ufc.tv/learnUFC/rulesUfc.asp

gracies work great in that environment

All martial arts have strong and weak points. The future of martial arts is MMA (mixed martial arts)

MMA is a combination of all martial arts combined. MMA takes the best of each martial art and combines them into one.

Using MMA you can eliminate the holes and weak points that each martial has.

-Tony

I agree, with all the rules in NHB tournies now, it has become a sporting event like boxing. And with weight divisions, there is even less real fighting elements to it.

I always refer to the early UFC's where there wasn't many rules at all, and traditional MA guys got chewed up.

I respect traditional MA, and I appreciate the culture and history, but when my ass is on the line, I'll stick with what works.

MMA is just BJJ with a standup technique added imho. Even the guys that call themselves wrestlers are using BJJ, they use their wrestling technique for takedown and position then start using BJJ subs to try to end it.

As far as the rules go, the less rules there are the better the Gracies like it. Especially the time limits, they HATE time limits. There is very little difference between an NHB match and a streetfight except you can't pick up a weapon. In both cases it's bare-handed mano-a-mano. In the early UFC's they even allowed groin shots, it never made that much of a difference. And eye-gouging (which is what everyone always points to when they try to say there's a difference between the ring and the street) is way harder than it looks. People tend to move their head when you're scrabbling your fingers around their eyes, and a BJJ guy will armbar you in a second if you try it.

what were the rules ?
eyes, throat, groin, knees are all prime targets to be practiced aiming for and defending in a streetfight

well I think there HAD to be weight divisions sooner or later, don't you? When the bigger guy knows what the smaller guy knows, he's going to win the vast majority of the time, and we're at that point now.

throat, groin and knee attacks were legal in the early UFC, eye-gouging wasn't although a couple people tried it anyway. It's not as effective as you would think.

Attacking the knees and throat is still legal, as far as I know...

that was lame from start to finish. I have a black belt in Go Ju Ryu and can't stand people who do lame ass, sucky demonstrations with poorly staged, 1/2 speed attacks and people making motions as if they were using their arms as golf clubs... and then pretend that it has any relation to an actual confrontation.. i would stab any one of those fuckers in the face and then go eat lunch.

:2 cents:

Striking the throat is illegal. Yes you can choke and press the throat just not strike.

Knees are legal with the exception of knees to the head when the opponent is laying on the ground.

-Tony

throat is #11 and it's worked for me

Two rules: no biting or eye-gouging

And there was 10 minute rounds, but back in that day the fights lasted like a maximum of 3 minutes unless it was a snoozer like a Shamrock fight.

Wing chun

I don't need to say anymore

i think its very fair to say that any fighting art is "usefull" if you have the benefit of sparring or having contact with other people in a fighting situation. just having the experience of interaction gives you a tremendous advantage over those who don't.


other than that... anyone that thinks a particular style is better than another is naive or inexperienced. more important that the style being teached... is WHO is teaching it. people can suck or kick ass in any style depending on who taught them and depending on their own character.

:2 cents:

the bjj guy in my brothers wing chun class is there because he fought a guy he couldn't get on the ground

if that's true, then why did BJJ fighters own every other style 100% of the time until the other styles started incorporating BJJ?

This just got posted: http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...p=getit&lid=15



In my opinion, the main things that count in typical bar/street fights are size, strength and insanity. Since you probably won't be fighting against a world champion in kickboxing or whatever, technique won't matter nearly as much as those things.

As I said, it was only a demonstration and the video clip does suck. It's not just an art you train and that can't be used. If you know some more about it you would feel different about it. Apparently I can't explain it to you and not show it to you so whatever..

Jiu Jitsu, Kick boxing, Kung Fu
are the most useful martial arts.
but wrestling? def. not... :1orglaugh

yeah Randy Coutoure and Matt Hughes are just bitches :1orglaugh

:thumbsup

Martial arts styles are not as important as the stylist. NHB is not really NHB. Your two bro's can't jump in the ring and help you. The guy you are wrestling can't knife you while you are fighting. Self defense, and sport fighting are two different things.

http://www.rmcat.com

Adrenal dump training. When you train in a dojo, those guys are usually your buds. Fighting someone that wants to kill you takes away a lot of your fine motor skills. Sport/Self Defense - two different things.

I was answering the question in the thread. if you are 100% correct in your perfect black and white world... then there would only be one style or weaponless fighting systems... not hundreds.

BJJ was marketed well and did well by a select group of related psychopaths who shared the same genes named Gracie. what does BJJ have to do with the fact that these guys can also take an incredible beating without getting knocked out? simple... nothing.

I train with those psychopaths every day, and they're the nicest guys you'd ever want to meet. Besides, if BJJ was all about the Gracies being homicidal and 'taking a beating' well, why are all the other fighters using BJJ now and beating Gracie family members?

if you get jumped by multiple guys you're fucked regardless of what you know, assuming they're really out to kick your ass and aren't just blowing smoke. There's a reason why every fighter who steps in the ring uses BJJ when they hit the ground (with the exception of a couple Sambo fighters) - it works better than anything else. If Kung Fu worked better than everything else, then everybody would be using it, but they don't. They use BJJ.

The guys who actually fight for a living use BJJ damn near exclusively. Doesn't that ring any bells for you at all?

Over the past 26 years I have studied and trained in Jeet kune Do, Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Wing Chun, Judo, Aikido, Ninjitsu, and Boxing. Like anything it is not what you do but the way that you do it. It is about the stylist and how they interpret the art. Some people have incredible focus and some do not.

Like Bruce said never restrict yourself to a style, be styleless. Be like water.

And above all practice the art of fighting without fighting.
:thumbsup

Will post pictures of my Katana tomorrow. Go to watch the movie Hero now, I hope to see some nice Kung Fu action. :glugglug

If it's about the stylist and not the style then how does little 170 lb Royce Gracie beat the shit out of all these giant guys from other styles in the early UFC's? Why aren't there any JKD, TKD, Karate, Wing Chun, Aikido, Ninjitsu (hehehehehehe) or boxers doing well in the UFC?

It's all about the stylist right? Then the toughest guy should win regardless of style, right? So why do BJJ guys always kick their ass?

thai boxing is awesome! I've seen it in the fight club around the corner...

you are confusing "fighting" and "martial arts" with UFC. getting taken down inside a small octagon cage, pushed up against the fence and getting hit or choked is not quite the same as fighting on the street or against multiple attackers or people weilding weapons... and does not mean that every other style of fighting is worthless or somehow less effective.

BJJ proved to be very successful in that arena... nothing more.

i feel much safer in my skills for example against multiple attackers on the street (which has happened) than i would knowing BJJ and being forced to lay on the ground choking someone while his friend kicks me in the face.
:2 cents:

Muay Thai has been pretty much proven to any rational person's satisfaction to be the king of the standup martial arts.

I repeat: nothing will save you against multiple attackers if they're actually attacking you and aren't just frat boys suddenly realizing they're in over their head. Nothing will save you if somebody cracks you in the dome with a baseball bat.

How is the ring different than the street? Both guys got two naked fists, two naked feet and elbows and knees. They're both hitting each other and grappling with each other.

you ninjas crack me up.

Dig, he often got his ass completely fucking kicked and took a lot of really hard shots that few could have taken. Same with some of his relatives. not every person can do that. there is a high degree of individuality and athleticism that you summarily dismiss and attempt to pass 100% credit for those things to BJJ.

thats funny... you know you don't have an argument so you dismiss it completely.

Have you ever seen a serious Akido demonstration? I have... i saw a guy here in Seattle fight 12 people from different styles who thought he was full of shit and he let them all attack him and he destroyed them.

but in the world of Dig... thats impossible.

yeah, and I'm sure you have some video of this incredible Aikido guy beating up on 12 BJJ guys :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

I, on the other hand, can point to every UFC and Pride event and about 500 clips on the web of BJJ guys beating Aikido guys, KF guys, even NINJAS!!!!

The whole POINT of the UFC, the entire reason Rorion started it, was to show that it's the style, not the man, that wins the fight. That's why Royce was in there instead of Rickson, it's a better demonstration to show an average sized guy beating monsters than an obvious athlete like Rickson.

I mean really, if seeing it demonstrated live over and over and over again doesn't convince you, what chance do I have? :1orglaugh

now you have come full circle and are arguing my point about individuals and arguing against yourself and BJJ by saying its the "man, not the style"

i agree completely.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh

A combination of Thai Boxing, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Wrestling :thumbsup

you act like a 12 year old addicted to BJJ comic book heroes.

you said no one could defend themselves against multiple attackers. I did not say ANYTHING about BJJ and that was hardly the point.... nice attempt at redirection though.

:Graucho

I think you should re-read what you quoted.

Look for the 'style, not the man' part.

That said, I'm just gonna let you Ninjas go on your merry way. If the Gracies didn't prove anything to you yet, I'm sure not going to make an impression.

These are the 3 fighting styles that MODERN MMA/NHB fighters train in.

Muay Thai is the best for free form action

Wrestling is the best for Clinching/takedowns

Brazillian Jiu Jits is the best for ground fighting.

All 3 are proven.

Aikido relies on willing opponents.

I studied it for 2 years, and believed in the hype.

Have someone in your school actually come at you, not in a damn overhead karate chop and see how good your aikido is.

The only good thing I got ouf of Aikido is that I can do mean ass forward roll, either than that, it's useless in the real world.

dig, I don't know if you are getting my context or not. Not everyone is Roy Gracie just like not everyone was Bruce Lee and for example if Gracie wasn't quick enough to grapple with Bruce Lee then he would have to be able to take all the punishment someone with the speed and technique of Bruce Lee could inflict.

It's about how the stylist uses that style and how they focus at any given moment. I have been attacked and had to protect people from multiple attacks too many times to count. I was attacked from behind in front of 400 people at the markets. I was hit with a solid steel pole, around the back of the head, then the next blow broke my 5th and 6th rib. While on the ground I was temple kicked by 2 guys who had black belts in Ninjitsu, Tae Kwon Do, and Shotokan. I flipped onto my back, crossed my arms and brought my legs up to protect my vital regions. I was able to get to my feet, grab the iron bar and knock one of them out before they hit one of my friends who tried to stop them. If I had not been able to focus and stop them and kept sustaining blows to the head the medics said I would have died.

I have been king hit by people who are 300 pounds. It's good for me that I have been able to take those hits but what is more important is knowing what to do after that and being able to use my focus and use whatever moves or aspects of styles to counter someone who is often 30% or 40% bigger.

I have always respected the effectiveness of BJJ and look forward to having a friendly spar with you one day. :)

What he said MMA is the way. I have studied Aki-Jitsu, KungFu for years. I have been training 5 days a week MMA for 4 months now:
( MMA: Brazillian Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, Wrestling, boxing combined)and could beat down any of my old instructors with the little training I have received so far.

-Tony

I have been studying Aikido for many years. I am fortunate to have an 8th dan instructor, one of the highest ranked in the world. One of the important things to realise is that Aikido takes many many years to become competent at.

It is very effective because you are using the attackers momentum against them. The more force they direct the more effective your counter is. While they are expending energy, you are not.

I wouldn't recommend limiting yourself to one style. That is why Aikido is only one of the many Martial Arts I have trained in.

MMA baby, You guys should get the bas rutten book on street fighting :winkwink:

WAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! YOU FOOLS!

Everyone knows it's tai chi - I kick you ass any day.