the end of civilisation in middle east...

[SABAI]

damn...times will be hard in israel and palestine .....the fachists of the likud have won the elections and we can be sure they will have no merci for palestinians....
its scary to see that israelis have the "beaten child" syndrome (a beaten up child is most likely to beat up his own children) ...it means that they are doing to the palestinains exactly what the nazis did to the jewish people...

its a shame..israel is a country i like a lot but i cannot caution fachism..



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[Rose]

Hey it's their election,They have the right
to vote for whoever they want.

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Proud to be Canadian

[Rip]

Who said it was civilized in the middle east?

My ancestors are from Ireland and they've been killing each other for a hundred years, nothing changes

[SABAI]

are you guy's aware of world's events and their repercutions?

your reactions make me wonder

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[kush]

Oppression has been going on for thousands of years.... It's sad but true. I seriously doubt civilization will end.

[Exxxotica]

SABI....

Only the people of Israel and Palestine can create peace. No amount of politics or foreign aid can change things there.

Until they learn to find forgiveness in their hearts and accept each other's religion...there will be no peace.

Thousands of years of murder and hatred mixed with fundamental beliefs is a hard thing to change....There will never be peace in the Middle East.

I love what Religion does for humanity.

[This message has been edited by Exxxotica (edited 02-06-2001).]

[SABAI]

exxxotica...
i totally agree with you....finally someone replied smartly...

dagobah is not in the usa i must understand

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[kemp]

I agree Exxxotica - I really wish the US gov't would realize that we should not be meddling in their problems. The situaltion is so confused that neither side is truly "right" yet we seem to have a slant towards the Israelis...

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[SABAI]

usa always been friends with israelis beacause of the money...they have a lot of money to buy weapons and the weapons israelis don't build themselves they buy from america....when bush declared war to sadam husein HE KNEW (its a proven fact) that hussein would scud the israelis...it was a good opportunity to sell the patriots....US government don't want to end the conflict between palestinians and israelis because both sides buy american weapons (kar-15 rifles for palestinians and uranium ammo for israelis)

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[This message has been edited by SABAI (edited 02-06-2001).]

[Rip]

There are so many radicals on both sides, I doubt there will ever be peace

All it takes is one well placed bomb by a mental case, and they will ensure failure of any peace talks

A coward walks the road of terrorism, it takes the bravest of individuals to walk the road of peace

[SABAI]

well in the 40's french resistance were called terrorists...think about this...



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[SABAI]

also its not a bomb which fucked up the peace processus...its ariel sharon...the guy was so pissed that netanyahu was back on feet that he decided to take a walk on the mosques esplanade...which pissed the palestinians off (think about it, its like if menguele went to have a walk at the wall of lamentations)and that is how ,because of one guy's eagerness to beat his rival up,he caused the death of people and fucked the peace processus which was on a good way

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[12clicks]

Sabai,

don't pretend to know the motives of the US. It makes you look like an idiot and a borderline racist.

[wiZd0m]

The problem as I understand is this:

The temple of Salomon was destroyed and never rebuilded. The muslim builded a mosque on the holy ground where the temple was first erected and not rebuilded. The only thing thats left of the temple is the litle peice of wall. See thats where all the problems started. Now you tell me how you get out of this mess!

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wiZd0m

[rhizome]

Well Clinton was pretty easy to figure out and very predictable but with Bush, I don't think anyone could figure out his motives. All I know is that his administration would never dream of siding with the Arabs so the election of Sharon coupled with a Bush administration is definitely bad news for Palestine.

BTW, Sabai wasn't too far off with the first part of his remark. Israel, after all is the U.S.' little baby and the U.S. knows that scolding Israel is only going to reflect poorly on itself. IMO, Americans should just stop giving birth to nations. Sharon may just make Liberia look like a calm child.

[blackcat]

that's why i don't believe any gods or on any religion... men makes bad use of human's faith for it's own benefit...
How can't 2 religions coexist??

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--==The Black Cat==--
www.analfantasy.net

[SABAI]

12 clicks

i don't pretend to know the motives of the US....i just read a lot,i stay informed,and i look at foreign affairs and politics...it is not racism, its just facts...i could say exactly the same for france and them selling weapons to china AND taiwan even thought both countries are willing to fight each other...

you have just to be aware about what is going on on the planet...life is not only internet and howard stern shows

"When the wise man points at the moon, the fool looks at the finger."

meditate on this fellow webmasters


Regards

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[This message has been edited by SABAI (edited 02-06-2001).]

[wiZd0m]

[Begin Dumb of Quoted Text]

First some Koran Law (Developed from 8th century to 1354)


Do you want to know what will be your status under Muslim rule or what the majority of the guys around being Muslims will be allow to do to you? From the Koran law I give you the answer:



From the sources: Al-Maqrizi, Suluk, I, pp. 909-913. Al-Shafi?I, Kitab al-U, iv pp 118-119.

Abu Yusuf, Kitab al-Kharaj pp 140-141. Al-Tabari, iii, pp. 1389-1390. Al-Qalqashandi,Subh al-a?sha, xiii, p.386. Ibn al-Athir, ix, p81. al-Suyuti, Husn al-Muhadara, ii, p.129. Yahya al-Antaki, pp 235-236. Qadikhan, Fatawi, iii,p.616. Al-Qalashandi, xiii,pp376-379.



On fashion:

Christians should be distinguished by wearing blue turbans, Jews by wearing yellow turbans, Samaritans by wearing red turbans. Shall not ride with stirrups nor gird a sword, nor ride on a horse or mule but ONLY on DONKEYS. Christian woman who appears in public SHALL wear cotton veil, dyed bleu, and the Jewess a yellow veil; that none of them SHALL enter the bath except wearing a sign around his NECK which distinguishes her from the Muslims

You shall distinguish your and their headgear (qalansuva) by a mark, which you shall place on your headgear.



On Urban planning, manners and work opportunities
They SHALL NOT build themselves houses higher than the houses of the Muslims, nor equal them, but ONLY LOWER, that they SHALL knock lightly with their clappers and nor rise their voices in their churches; that they SHALL NOT WORK in the service of our exalted state, nor in the service of the emirs NOR SHALL any of them (Jews, Christians etc) hold a position which give him authority over any of the Muslims.



On taxes:

If you are not Muslim you SHALL PAY extra TAX and be HUMBLED and humbled means you have to be lower than Muslims. See point 3 Le Coran for the source of this law.

Every adult male 15 years and older SHALL have to PAY a poll TAX (jizya). You shall NOT be able to leave the city until you pay your poll tax.

This a Hindu complaining, so I am not inventing it: http://hindunet.org/alt_hindu/1994/msg00746.html
Mind you, jiziya is not a tax on the annual income but on total assets a zimmi (non Muslim) possesses. The tax rate is 6 percent of all your possessions. The net effect is that in mere 11 years more than 50 percent of the populations (non-Muslims) net worth is transferred to the Moslem ruler.


On free trade:

If you travel or trade, you SHALL PAY to the Muslims a tenth part of all your merchandise.

We shall supervise all your dealings with Muslims if anything is not lawful for a Muslim we shall punish you for it. If you sell a Muslim something forbidden (Wine, pigs, blood or carrion etc) we shall punish you for it and we shall NOT oblige him to pay for it to you.



On freedom of speech
If any one of you speak improperly of Muhammad, the Book (Koran), or of his religion then your property and your life are at the disposal of the Commander of the faithful.

If you are Christian you may not display crosses in Muslim cities, nor build churches or meeting places for your prayers, nor proclaim your beliefs to a Muslim.



On sexual matters and other ludicrous stuff
If you fornicate with a Muslim woman, or you married her or robs a Muslim or subverts a Muslims from his religion or gives aid to those who made war against the Muslims by fighting with them, or helping spies etc. then your life and your property are at the disposal of the Muslims. If you kill a Muslim your clan is liable for blood. Your clan is paternal kinsmen.



From the source: Ibn Hisham, al-Sira al-Nabawiyya, vol.1 pp516-518
On call naming and cool assumptions


The Jews are people given to falsehood (Mmmm?nothing new here jet)



They are a slandering, treacherous, lying and immoral people (Mmm?it is getting better!)



The God-Fearing Believers (Muslims obviously) shall be against whoever (Christians & Jews obviously) does injustice, whoever seeks power or oppression or sin, or enmity, or corrupt among the Believers (Muslims) (Mmm?I wonder why all these guys move to Christian countries then, little note: in Israel there are a million Arabs)



Any Jew who follows us (Muslims) shall have aid and comfort. Such a Jew shall not be oppressed nor his enemies aided against him.(now you get a glimpse of something here)

The Believers (Muslims) should avenge each other?s blood.



Same source Vol.2 p.58
A Cool Story in becoming Muslim


Ibn Ishaq relates: Kill any Jew who falls into your power So Muhayyisa (Muslim) fell upon Sunayna (Jew) one of the Jewish merchant with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. He said to him most of the fat on your belly came from wealth. By Allah had he commanded me to kill you. I would have cut off your head. This was the beginning of Muhayyisa?s becoming Muslim and Muhayyisa reply: Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful.(and you thought that the guy from the film silence of the lambs was a bad guy compared to this one it looks pretty harmless)

Let us look at the 20 disabilities Jiziya calls for:

1. Zimmis (people of the book) are not to possess arms;

2. They are not to build new places of worship;

3. They are not to repair any old places of worship which have been
Destroyed by Moslems;(Call it no rule of law)

4. They are not to prevent Moslem travelers from staying in their
(zimmi) places of worship; (Call it intrusion and invasion)

5. They are not to observe their religious practices publicly or
Mourn for their dead loudly;(even in your pain they still fuck you)

6. They are to entertain for 3 days any Moslem who wants to stay in Their homes and for a longer period if the Moslem falls ill;(Call it a free lunch)

7. They are to allow Moslems to participate in their private meetings; (Call it no privacy. Voyeurism 101)

8. They are not to ride horses with saddle and bridle.

9. They are to wear a distinctive dress, which shows their inferior (Call it apartheid Muslim style) Status and separates them from the Moslems;

10.They are not to dress like Moslems; (Who wants?)

11.They are not to wear signet rings or seals on their fingers;

12.They have to show respect to every Moslem; (Why? After all that as been written in their Koran law)

13.They are not to harbor any hostility or give aid and comfort to
Elements hostile to Moslem ruler;

14.They are not to prevent anyone from getting converted to Islam;

15.They are not to name themselves with Moslem names; (Who wants in any case?)

16.They are not to propagate their customs and usages among Moslems;

17.They are not to build their houses in the neighborhood of Moslems; (Kind of difficult being surrounded by them, remember you are in a Muslim country or where the majority are Muslims)

18.They are not to bring their dead near the graveyards of Moslems;

19.They are not to buy Moslem slaves;

20.They are not to sell or drink liquor openly.(they do not drink but can traffic with drugs?)

Some explanation of finer points is necessary at this time. First, Koran asks for Jiziya from Zimmis (people of the book) only. Zimmis or dhimmis are people of semitic religions (namely Jews and Christians).

By Koranic definition, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Animists, Pagans, Parsis and people of other nonsemitic religions are Kafirs. They are to be given choice (revealed by merciful Allah) of conversion to Islam or death. So strictly speaking, Jiziya is not meant for Hindus and other Kafirs of India. But when Moslem rulers of ancient India came across a vast population of Hindus which could not be exterminated quickly with the then available primitive means, the "merciful' Moslem rulers chose to impose Jiziya on the population to let them 'live and work' in the Islamic land, certainly a great privilage (sic).

Other humiliations imposed by Jiziya were that the zimmi must come on foot and make payment standing while the Moslem collector must be seated. If the zimmi sends the money thru an agent it was not to be accepted.

Source : Koran and Kafir - By A.Ghosh, pp.85-86, 1983
ISBN 0-9611614-0


I give you the definition from the dictionary:

Dhimmi

dhimmi


Muslim juridical term for Christians and Jews, sometimes Zoroastrians, Mandeans or even Hindus, living in a society governed by Muslims rulers and law.
Dhimmis have limited autonomy, but full rights to practice their religion and shall be secured full protection by the rulers. Earlier there was a specific tax, jizya ( Koran 9,29), that Dhimmis had to pay to receive these benefits. Dhimmis who did not pay this tax, should either convert to Islam or face death penalty. This tax, higher than the tax Muslims had to pay, was in several occasions one of the most important sources of income for the rulers, and therefore they were often little inclined to encourage conversion to Islam, as this would represent a decrease in their income.
It was early endeavour of the Sharia that added details to the regulations of the jizya. It involved that the Christians could keep all of their churches and convents, but were not allowed to erect new structures nor restore ruined buildings. The Dhimmis had to give lodging to Muslims for up to 3 days and they had to show Muslims their respect. They could not perform public ceremonies and no crosses could be used in Muslim quarters. They could not ride on horseback with saddles, they could neither carry weapons nor sell alcoholic beverages to Muslims.
Christians were not allowed to build houses taller than their neighbours' houses. In public they had to carry visible tokens of to the religion to which they belonged. If there was a case at the court, Muslim statements were considered of more value than the ones form Christians. But there were no limitations to the professions which could be performed.
Later there were more regulations imposed, like in 853, when Caliph al-Mutawakkil forbade Dhimmis to ride on horses they had to stick to donkeys and mules. In 14th century Egypt, Jews had to carry a a yellow turban, Christians a blue one.
But in practice, there was less distance between the people of the different religions: people lived side by side. Non-Muslims could hold the highest positions in society and this during times when Jews in Europe had few or no social rights.
Another word for Dhimmis, is ahlu l-kitaab, "people of the book", but this is more a theological term, than a juridical one


[/End Dumb of Quoted Text]

Disclaimer: The above may not reflect my personal view on the subject nor do i endorse or condome any of the previously quoted text.

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wiZd0m

[rhizome]

Haha, and we all know how objectively Hindus view the Muslim faith. The Jains will place the Hindus, however, in the same light, just as Christians do with Jews. Its an endless circle and its ludicrou arguing over which religion is better. If there is ever going to be piece in the Middle East, then religion must be put aside. The fact is, you just don't go into some land carrying the Western world in your palm and destroy that land and the people who live there.

[SABAI]

nice documentation wizdom,

but in fact every religions have their extremists ...

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[wiZd0m]

I'm just quoting it, I did not write this ;-)

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wiZd0m

[Exxxotica]

This thread has turned into a holy war!

[wiZd0m]

Holy? lol, some people take this stuff way to seriously. But people have been killing each other over this for ages

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wiZd0m

[SNOW]

UMMMM will the real slim shady please stand up
please stand up
please stand up
I think we need to Interview Sadam hussein On PLRRADIO...

Great Info Wizdom wow So much to learn, and see in the world......

[boneprone]

Lets stop fighting and enjoy boneprone, and its message for world peace..
http://www.boneprone.com

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[stangster]

They have been fighting with religious passion (and ideology) forever. You think they'll stop? not.

[wiZd0m]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=21118


see what your good friend saddam is doing, lol, no wonder i could not buy one for Xmas

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wiZd0m

[12clicks]

Originally posted by SABAI:
12 clicks

"When the wise man points at the moon, the fool looks at the finger."

"When the wise man points his finger, the fool pulls it"

[tha_timinator]

I will probably get much resistance to this opinion, but I really don't see where the Israelians their validation get from!

Coz it's simple as I see it: (chronologically)

1. Palestina is country of Palestians (such as Canada is country of the Canadians, Holland is country of Dutch people etc. etc.)

2. Israelians have a faith that tells them Palestina is predestined for the Israelian people

3. Israelians occupy Palestina

4. Israelians say Palestina is THEIR country and that Palestinians gotta move out because their faith tells them that. And the whole world seems to think it's ok.

I REALLY DON'T SEE THE LOGICAL STRUCTURE IN HERE!!
Coz if this is logical, the following would be logical as well:

1. My neighbour owns a nice Porsche

2. I have some kind of faith that tells me that my neighbours Porsche is predestined for me

3. I steal my neighbour's Porsche

4. I claim to be the rightful owner of my neighbour's Porsche BECAUSE MY FAITH TELLS ME SO!!

If I would steal my neighbour's Porsche in real life I don't give myself any chance that our law will think that's ok because my faith says so!!!!!

So WAKE UP WORLD or otherwise please tell me any any ANY reason why the Israelians should have ANY validation for stating Palestina is THEIR country!!



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Tha Timinator
IEP
http://www.iephosting.net/

[Animal]