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Fletch XXX

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#1

Trust & Holiday Drama

05-31-2004, 08:39 AM

drama dont stop, its like beer sales.

anyway, just made a very long post about trust and what I am having to wake up to today.

http://www.fletchxxx.com/blog/2004/0...-industry.html

long but if you plan on making deals with someone from this board you better move slow, be careful and watch your back.

read it all

http://www.fletchxxx.com/blog/2004/0...-industry.html

Wont name names, i know people are away and partying, it hasnt been addressed yet, but its pised me off enough to share without names involved.

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#2

05-31-2004, 08:44 AM

Fletch, because you used the word "scallywag", I'm going to have to ask you to name names.

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#3

05-31-2004, 08:52 AM

Sorry to hear of your misfortune. It's a shame to hear a story like this when so many of us work so hard at what we do

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#4

05-31-2004, 08:53 AM

Holy shit Fletch, that's some fucked up crooked bullshit. I hope whoever did that shit to you gets outed, and I hope they feel like sacks of shit for their criminal (and yes, it's a crime to steal designs) activities. Man that's some horrid shit. If I can help you in any way man, you know where to find me

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#5

05-31-2004, 08:55 AM

hahaha Lady Mischief love the sig
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Fletch XXX

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#6

05-31-2004, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by LadyMischief
Holy shit Fletch, that's some fucked up crooked bullshit. I hope whoever did that shit to you gets outed, and I hope they feel like sacks of shit for their criminal (and yes, it's a crime to steal designs) activities. Man that's some horrid shit. If I can help you in any way man, you know where to find me

I do not want this go too far before it can be dealt with but what infuriates me about this, I was told i would be contacted for multiple designs and multiple tours, so I came up with a good layout for the girl sites.

Now I see the same layout on all the sites, like they totally just cut me out.

I hate shit like this, and I hope this thread doesnt look like a premature pised off rant.

Ive seen the tours, they are launched, and they are all based on my first design.

Its not the knock off so much, as its the entire package of how things went down.

I cant stop someone from knocking off my work, hell its only tables and layout, but looking at the entire thing.

As a whole. I was offered a GENEROUS percentage. Which I was talked down, and then ultimately out of. Then I see the work i was supposed to have done being done by someone else who is basically copying my layout.

shitty lollipop to suck on this morning.

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Fletch XXX

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#7

05-31-2004, 09:03 AM

The sites were crap before me. I even said on the phone my designs would convert better... obviousy they did. They changed all their tours to look like mine.

The sites were shitty graphic heavy, no text, all text was graphics until they talked to me.

Thats what makes this so fucking blatant.

i saw their tours BEFORE they were changed, NOW THEY ALL LOOK LIKE THE ONE I DESIGNED.

simply not fucking cool with me.

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#8

05-31-2004, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX
I do not want this go too far before it can be dealt with but what infuriates me about this, I was told i would be contacted for multiple designs and multiple tours, so I came up with a good layout for the girl sites.

Now I see the same layout on all the sites, like they totally just cut me out.

I hate shit like this, and I hope this thread doesnt look like a premature pised off rant.

Ive seen the tours, they are launched, and they are all based on my first design.

Its not the knock off so much, as its the entire package of how things went down.

I cant stop someone from knocking off my work, hell its only tables and layout, but looking at the entire thing.

As a whole. I was offered a GENEROUS percentage. Which I was talked down, and then ultimately out of. Then I see the work i was supposed to have done being done by someone else who is basically copying my layout.

shitty lollipop to suck on this morning.

That fucking sucks! I would be beyond furious and ready to kick ass and take my money!

I will be waiting for you to expose the greedy fucks
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#9

05-31-2004, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by C_U_Next_Tuesday
That fucking sucks! I would be beyond furious and ready to kick ass and take my money!

I will be waiting for you to expose the greedy fucks

Hey Betty, I know I owe you some work, please be patient. I am dealing with tons of things, this is just one.

I have some clients to wrap up and I will get to your stuff ASAP, plenty things lined up thsi week, just wanted to touch base with you on that ;)

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#10

05-31-2004, 09:11 AM

the mob demands names
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#11

05-31-2004, 09:12 AM

Damn man this is one big surprise...I know exactly who you are talking about.

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Fletch XXX

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#12

05-31-2004, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by wdsguy
the mob demands names

people are away, my email has not been addrssed yet, I know for a fact persons involved are far from an internet connection right now.

i dont want this to get any more nasty than it already is.

I made a deal with someone, was cut out, and now see that the work I provided in that deal has been used as an example for all their sites, and is basically being used as a template for their sites.

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#13

05-31-2004, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX
Hey Betty, I know I owe you some work, please be patient. I am dealing with tons of things, this is just one.

I have some clients to wrap up and I will get to your stuff ASAP, plenty things lined up thsi week, just wanted to touch base with you on that ;)

no prob and I am very patient..take care of what you need to first.. I am in no big hurry.

I do however have a few ideas to throw your way. After this week.. you or cherry q me and see what we can brainstorm..
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Fletch XXX

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#14

05-31-2004, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by C_U_Next_Tuesday
no prob and I am very patient..take care of what you need to first.. I am in no big hurry.

I do however have a few ideas to throw your way. After this week.. you or cherry q me and see what we can brainstorm..

Thanks ;)

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#15

05-31-2004, 09:24 AM

you got fucked in the ass and you're holding names ?
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#16

05-31-2004, 09:26 AM

you shouldn't have gave up the percentage deal.
now the know that they can feed you you all kinds of bullshit and you'll swallow.
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Fletch XXX

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#17

05-31-2004, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by DarkJedi
you got fucked in the ass and you're holding names ?

i really do not know what to do in this situation.

i am trying to be a bit professional, I know i dont do that often, but in this case, I am debating which way to go.

i overlooked this a few days ago, I would have brought it up sooner, but the people involved are not around.

the answer isnt that difficult anyway

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#18

05-31-2004, 09:29 AM

thing is, it doesnt just involve my partner, it involves the partner that was involved in other sites.

and I do not know who to blame right now.

its a mess.... i wish i could explain it all.

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#19

05-31-2004, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX

i am trying to be a bit professional

while they cheat you.

come on now...
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#20

05-31-2004, 09:30 AM

Yup...

This similer sorta thing has happened to me a couple times regarding percentage "deals long" term.

My best advice bro is to work things in writing and retain Copyrights to your work with provisions that liscense the work to anyone you do business with. Now A days I do nothing until I send clients Cost Estimate Proposals, Invoice Forms, and information of rights for use and disclaimer agreements.

You might have a case concerning derivative works from the initial concept you provided and could get em for Copyright infringements if any documentation was passed that clarified the releasing of work to them for there websites.

There are alot of ways to do good professional work for people and protect yourself but none of it will apply if you do not set up agreements, work orders and terms to clients.

As a matter of fact providing work to companies without terms is very dangerous without clarifications as if something fails they can take you down in court claiming you provided faulty work!

Its unbelievable how some of the business law's run in the United States, soem of it makes sense some of it does not.

There is nothing easy about providing Design and Creative Services to companies and seriously most dsigners here at GFY open there assholes so wide anyone can ream them with no vaseling at any given time of day.

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Fletch XXX

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#21

05-31-2004, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by DarkJedi
while they cheat you.

come on now...

DJ, i admire your persistence, but I even said In my email I sent this morning that the sad thing is, despite this that if i was to bring it to GFY, they will most likely gain affiliates, because greed caused this, greed will fuel it.

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Fletch XXX

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#22

05-31-2004, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by AlienQ
Yup...

This similer sorta thing has happened to me a couple times regarding percentage "deals long" term.

My best advice bro is to work things in writing and retain Copyrights to your work with provisions that liscense the work to anyone you do business with. Now A days I do nothing until I send clients Cost Estimate Proposals, Invoice Forms, and information of rights for use and disclaimer agreements.

You might have a case concerning derivative works from the initial concept you provided and could get em for Copyright infringements if any documentation was passed that clarified the releasing of work to them for there websites.

There are alot of ways to do good professional work for people and protect yourself but none of it will apply if you do not set up agreements, work orders and terms to clients.

As a matter of fact providing work to companies without terms is very dangerous without clarifications as if something fails they can take you down in court claiming you provided faulty work!

Its unbelievable how some of the business law's run in the United States, soem of it makes sense some of it does not.

There is nothing easy about providing Design and Creative Services to companies and seriously most dsigners here at GFY open there assholes so wide anyone can ream them with no vaseling at any given time of day.

thanks for the post.

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#23

05-31-2004, 09:41 AM

Fletch. I know how you feel. I did some tour page layouts for this guy named brian who runs 2 sites that I know of.

sexxxhouse.net

and

mariahxxx.net

We discussed $170 for three relatively quick tour layout pages for mariahxxx.net. I did the work and put a sample of the layout on my host for him to take a look at and see if he wanted revisions. I had worked for the guy in the past on smaller projects such as banners and a few flash pieces, nothing major but he had always paid me.

So while I was waiting for an ICQ to discuss payment with him I decided to check out his site. There was my layout on the 2nd page in, ripped off my site and pieced back together with different images in place of the ones I had originally placed. Now when I contact him about payment I get no answer, its been about a week now and my design is still on his site hes still jerking me around about payment with not a dime payed to me.

I have chocked it up to a learning experience and portfolio work but the fact is you cant trust anyone you meet offering work online, nothing but a bunch of teenagers with shit domains trying to be so called "businessmen". Get your money upfront, if you make deals get signed contracts. Sorry to hear bout what happened to you fletch. You are a great designer and all your hard work shouldnt have been in vain,.
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Fletch XXX

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#24

05-31-2004, 09:42 AM

Okay, fuck it.

heres the tour I did as an example and a model I was to use in designing multiple solo girl sites.

http://www.fletchxxx.com/chloe/

and then here are the designs that were made from my original, copied from my design by in house designers. I was not paid and never compensated.

http://www.teenautumn.com/
http://www.teenlarisa.com/
http://www.kellyq.com/
http://www.teenkeera.com/
http://www.teenkayla.com/
http://www.teenashley.com/

is it just me? am i crazy?

Please keep in mind, this original tour I designed it with % in mind, I sat down and designed it not even thinking about getting paid flat out.

I was lured into this with a percentage, and then now see this.

anyone with a right mind can see who is right and who is wrong here.

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#25

05-31-2004, 09:44 AM

that's fucked up fletch.

That's why I don't go in for partnership things anymore. You seem to have the drive to put a program together yourself, rather than playing the odds that you'll get paid on partnership deals.

You can do great business on msg boards, but it is so easy to get misled. Some "Major Players," are really living paycheck to paycheck. A few of the old school "internet geniuses" are really lucky fucks whose money bales them out of bad business decisions.

Hope things work out.

Originally posted by Fletch XXX
i really do not know what to do in this situation.

i am trying to be a bit professional, I know i dont do that often, but in this case, I am debating which way to go.

i overlooked this a few days ago, I would have brought it up sooner, but the people involved are not around.

the answer isnt that difficult anyway

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#26

05-31-2004, 09:45 AM

Here Flech get THIS BOOK!

Its called "Business and legal Forms For Graphic Designers"

By Tad Crawford and Eva Doman Buck. Co Published with The Graphic Artists Guild.
ISBN 1-58115-274-4

Creative Services is really a tough gig and the powers of creative services hold is very overwelming when looked at from a business perspective.

Protecting your ass and clarifying whats yours and whats a clients and how those clients may use your work is the ultimate building block.

It scares away the scammers and hustlers pretty quick on the don side ya ill notice less orders but the orders that do come in are most often from professional worth while clients willing to pay for your services while at the same time realising they themselves are protected by having you work for them.

Good luck bro

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Fletch XXX

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#27

05-31-2004, 09:46 AM

most importanlty...

THESE SITES HAD DIFFERENT DESIGNS

they were crap.

graphic heavy bullshit that sucked ass.

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Fletch XXX

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#28

05-31-2004, 09:54 AM

man this shit has me so furious, i have to step away from the computer.

i havent been this mad in awhile.

i am seeing red.

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#29

05-31-2004, 10:01 AM

great template design.

and yeah, they ripped you off.
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#30

05-31-2004, 10:05 AM

Amazing they had to fuck you over to figure out a simple, pretty layout would convert tons better than what they had.

Get them however you can. That sucks.

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Fletch XXX

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#31

05-31-2004, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by DarkJedi
you shouldn't have gave up the percentage deal.

to clarify, I didnt really have a choice.

be stuck with a tour I couldnt use, or sell it to them? The tour was done, I was working on other projects with other people.

I wanted money for my time, I took it.

I had no option. I was cut out of the deal with no possibility of rejoining.

I only dealt with one partner, the *third partner* is the guy who was greedy and wanted to cut me out. And turns out he is the guy who owns all these knock off sites.

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#32

05-31-2004, 10:16 AM

don't worry to much about it, they are gonna prolly go fo broke anyway.

I mean really think about it.
a 50/50 program.

Cut 1/2 off for webmasters.
Cut Off bandwidth charges.
Cut Off Content aquisitions.
Cut Off Processor fee's.

Basically in those kinda partnerships your struggling over a lousy .25 cents per member split 3 ways.

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#33

05-31-2004, 10:46 AM

Fletch XXX hope everything works out. I am tempted to post a link to their affiliate program.

Last night, I almost joined since the tours looked so nice. I will definitely not join unless they work out something with you.

It bad enough to lead you into a partnership, renege and just pay for your services. But to use your original design for other sites is just wrong.
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#34

05-31-2004, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by cherrylula
hahaha Lady Mischief love the sig

Amazingly enough, apparently the thing REALLY works haha..

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LadyMischief

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#35

05-31-2004, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX
The sites were crap before me. I even said on the phone my designs would convert better... obviousy they did. They changed all their tours to look like mine.

The sites were shitty graphic heavy, no text, all text was graphics until they talked to me.

Thats what makes this so fucking blatant.

i saw their tours BEFORE they were changed, NOW THEY ALL LOOK LIKE THE ONE I DESIGNED.

simply not fucking cool with me.

They are assholes if they are pulling this shit on you, man. I hope they get theirs and you get what you've earned with your hard work and experience.

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LadyMischief

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#36

05-31-2004, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX
Okay, fuck it.

heres the tour I did as an example and a model I was to use in designing multiple solo girl sites.

http://www.fletchxxx.com/chloe/

and then here are the designs that were made from my original, copied from my design by in house designers. I was not paid and never compensated.

http://www.teenautumn.com/
http://www.teenlarisa.com/
http://www.kellyq.com/
http://www.teenkeera.com/
http://www.teenkayla.com/
http://www.teenashley.com/

is it just me? am i crazy?

Please keep in mind, this original tour I designed it with % in mind, I sat down and designed it not even thinking about getting paid flat out.

I was lured into this with a percentage, and then now see this.

anyone with a right mind can see who is right and who is wrong here.

You're not crazy man.. they ran with it..

And HOLY FUCK, that Ashley chick gets around more than a fly in a shitpile... She has many of her own sites, including Karendreams through solarcash, she's done shoots for Panchodog, ATK, and a bazillion others... I'm amazed they would open YET ANOTHER solo girl site for her.

This shit stinks man.

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#37

05-31-2004, 11:03 AM

That's fucked up Fletch, they'll get theirs in the end.

I found this amusing on their affiliate front page:

"My goal is to build a professional relationship with you, to establish trust, openness and, quite frankly, to make you gobs of money- because if you're making money, so are we. I'm willing to do anything I can to achieve these goals. I am available during normal business hours (Pacific Standard Time), either via the affiliate support desk or ICQ (202400104)."

what a cock!

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#38

05-31-2004, 11:04 AM

damn wheres the drama pics
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#39

05-31-2004, 11:09 AM

There is a whole lot more to this story than what appears. I am very disappointed with what's been posted so far. I am involved with all of this and have never screwed Fletch over. I'm a little disappointed that it went to the boards before I was even aware of Fletch's feelings. We're speaking about it on ICQ right now...
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Fletch XXX

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#40

05-31-2004, 11:13 AM

Let it be known, if i didnt mention it, I was in fact paid for my original design. I was udner the impression it was to be used for alternate tour, i was okay with that.

Thanks for paying me DOnny but right now how much I was paid doesnt really have anything to do with this matter in my opinion.

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#41

05-31-2004, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by DonovanPhillips
We're speaking about it on ICQ right now...

Donny - fuck the ICQ - pick up the phone and give him a buzz

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machinegunkelly

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#42

05-31-2004, 11:34 AM

Thats really shitty .
Guess you'll have to write it off as a lesson learned .

Good luck fletch .
Hope something good comes of it .

dead.
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Fletch XXX

GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!!

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#43

05-31-2004, 11:43 AM

Donny and I have spoken on ICQ for awhile now. Obviously this runs deeper than just between he and I.

Today is Monday and its a holiday, I can wait until people get back around to straighten this out but it will be dealt with.

I will start a thread about the outcome or progress.

I really hope for the best, but experience sometimes teaches us otherwise.

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Donny

As you wish...

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#44

05-31-2004, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX
Donny and I have spoken on ICQ for awhile now. Obviously this runs deeper than just between he and I.

Today is Monday and its a holiday, I can wait until people get back around to straighten this out but it will be dealt with.

I will start a thread about the outcome or progress.

I really hope for the best, but experience sometimes teaches us otherwise.

Either you are away or you are ignoring me. I just sent this:

DonovanPhillips (12:53 PM) :
I BCC'd you. I would say that ICQ conversation really makes him 100% aware of the situation, wouldn't you?

DonovanPhillips (12:54 PM) :
Still there?
DonovanPhillips (12:56 PM) :

I need to tell you, I really want to post our ICQ conversation:

URL TO ICQ CONVERSATION WITHHELD FOR NOW

in that thread. I am very disappointed this went to the board, but since it has, I think everyone should read that. What do you think?
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DeanCapture

Haters & Trolls SUCK!

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#45

05-31-2004, 12:01 PM

Donny - I thought you and Fletch were buddies - ???

If that's still the case, why don't you guys get on the phone with
each other and get to the bottom of this? I know that this is a
high-tech world, but some things need to be handled over the
phone, not over ICQ.

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SlickRick

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#46

05-31-2004, 12:03 PM

I have a question here.
I understand your frustration.

And don't like to see anyone getting ripped off.

For example say I went you and paid you to design my site. After all payments were made, would I be allowed to change/Mirror that site, using the template you created, with different images to give it a totally different look?

Just wondering, and dont mean to get off the topic of your issue.
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Donny

As you wish...

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#47

05-31-2004, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by DeanCapture
Donny - I thought you and Fletch were buddies - ???

If that's still the case, why don't you guys get on the phone with
each other and get to the bottom of this? I know that this is a
high-tech world, but some things need to be handled over the
phone, not over ICQ.

3 reasons:

1. I need to leave to take TeenKarma back home (6 hour round trip for me)

2. his number is at my office and I'm at home

3. I thought we had a better relationship than to go directly to the boards over something like this... and since I'm obviously wrong and Fletch wants to take this to the court of public opion, ICQ logs show the "public opinion" group a little more detailed information.
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Fletch XXX

GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!!

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#48

05-31-2004, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by DonovanPhillips
Either you are away or you are ignoring me. I just sent this:

DonovanPhillips (12:53 PM) :
I BCC'd you. I would say that ICQ conversation really makes him 100% aware of the situation, wouldn't you?

DonovanPhillips (12:54 PM) :
Still there?
DonovanPhillips (12:56 PM) :

I need to tell you, I really want to post our ICQ conversation:

URL TO ICQ CONVERSATION WITHHELD FOR NOW

in that thread. I am very disappointed this went to the board, but since it has, I think everyone should read that. What do you think?

Donny I was not ignoring you, I was taking a shower!

hahaha

I have been dealing with this since the minute I woke up, after our ICQ log I decided to take a shower ;)

Post the icq if you want here:

http://www.donovanphillips.com/images/fletch/

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Fletch XXX

GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!!

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#49

05-31-2004, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by DonovanPhillips

3. I thought we had a better relationship than to go directly to the boards over something like this... and since I'm obviously wrong and Fletch wants to take this to the court of public opion, ICQ logs show the "public opinion" group a little more detailed information.

"we" do but I have no deal with your parner.

You told me he is copying my design on sites you are not even part of.

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Donny

As you wish...

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#50

05-31-2004, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by SlickRick
I have a question here.
I understand your frustration.

And don't like to see anyone getting ripped off.

For example say I went you and paid you to design my site. After all payments were made, would I be allowed to change/Mirror that site, using the template you created, with different images to give it a totally different look?

Just wondering, and dont mean to get off the topic of your issue.

This, folks, is exactly what I believe to be happening in this case. My partner knows I paid Fletch (more than he asked, actually) and likely assumes we own exclusive rights to the design (as is the case when purchasing exclusive content). That would give him the right to duplicate the design, as is the case with TGP gallery templates.

BUT... since my partner is not in town today (being a holiday) I can't ask him. The new tours were done without my knowlege. I simply can't answer Fletch's questions today because I DON'T KNOW WHAT MY PARTNER HAD IN MIND. Simple as that.
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