Webmaster: "designers work your magic" Is just not enough information.

[eroswebmaster]

LOL I get this so often to questions like..."what exactly are you needing?"

"I don't know, just work your magic!."

This the beginning of a communication breakdown that will ultimately lead to you as the client being unhappy with the finished product more often than not.

Designers...or gallery makers..banner makers etc. We are there to translate your vision from though to reality.

It is not our vision you want, my vision will more than likely differ from yours.

So what's the point?

If you wish to contract a new designer/gallerymaker etc. Sit down and really think out what it is exactly you are wanting.

What is it you sell.

What ideas, thoughts, statements are you trying to convey.

What colors work best on your site, what fonts, what text?

Give this all to whoever it is you decide to work with and I guarantee you in the end you'll be much more happier than if the designer just worked his/her magic.

[TAMPA_TOKER]

Good advice Eros

[graphicsbytia]

these are the worst!

great post eroswebmaster

[EviLGuY]

I try to be really clear when I spec something out like this..

Not that I have ever needed a lot of graphic design type stuff done.. but there has been some over the years.

[TDF]

i cast level 3 eroticism on this thread

[Fletch XXX]

i simply do ther work and they never seem to complain when they say that.

"do your magic"

thats all i hear, just sit back and do it.

barbers get it, hairstylists, everyone with a service with any talent gets told "do your magic" see it in music studios and effect studios all the time ;)

just do it!

[Sly_RJ]

Hmm... I like being able to give someone a project, say "do what you think is best", and come out with something good.

"Do your magic" works fine for me. Designers must have an easy time picking up on what I like/dislike.

[eroswebmaster]

Originally posted by Sly_RJ
Hmm... I like being able to give someone a project, say "do what you think is best", and come out with something good.

"Do your magic" works fine for me. Designers must have an easy time picking up on what I like/dislike.

But who is to blame when they fail?

[Lord Helpus]

Eros, I can give you as much information to go on as you want, if you are interested in working on our TGPs - please ICQ me if you are interested: ICQ 125667290 , Vanessa - Adult Action Cash

[smack]

Thanks god i'm not the only one that gets that shit.

quite a good few professional relationships have been cut short because people do not know what they want. what they do know, however, is that it is nothing that you have showed them.

Why would you entrust the vision of YOUR site to someone else?

that's like going into a car dealership with $40k in cash, handing it to the man and saying, yeah i was a car, just pick me something good.

[Sly_RJ]

Originally posted by eroswebmaster
But who is to blame when they fail?

Who says I blame anyone? I work with the designer to find something that we both like and think will work well. I'm too busy to run around blaming people for problems.

[eroswebmaster]

Originally posted by Sly_RJ
Who says I blame anyone? I work with the designer to find something that we both like and think will work well. I'm too busy to run around blaming people for problems.

Ahh..but you are now saying you "work with the designer," to find something that will work well..that's far different than just saying..."work your magic."

[johndoebob]

I look at the portfolio and when I like what he does I'll tell him he should do it like he always does it,if I would really know what I want I wouldn't hire somebody to do it
If I wouldn't like certain parts I'm sure most designers would be happy to correct it,but I don't think it'll ever happen.

[eroswebmaster]

Originally posted by Lord Helpus
Eros, I can give you as much information to go on as you want, if you are interested in working on our TGPs - please ICQ me if you are interested: ICQ 125667290 , Vanessa - Adult Action Cash

Vanessa Marc my project manager is going to contact you right now.

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

"Do your magic" = "I aint paying if I don't like it"

[Sly_RJ]

Originally posted by eroswebmaster
Ahh..but you are now saying you "work with the designer," to find something that will work well..that's far different than just saying..."work your magic."

No. First I say "work your magic". If it isn't what I like, then I "work with the designer".

[Fletch XXX]

Originally posted by smack


that's like going into a car dealership with $40k in cash, handing it to the man and saying, yeah i was a car, just pick me something good.

we're nott alking about cars and 40k, we're talking about galleries and graphics.

I get the "do your magic" all the time too and have never seen anyone complain on this board.

I dont even see what the big rush is about.

I use to help paint murals on walls during art school, the people didnt pick us to do it because we could "do what they wanted" it was because they trusted us in our own performance to do a good project.

I have watched interviews with effect studios regarding lets say Jason VS Fredy, and its the effect studio who makes the cool pinball scene, not the director, you trust the guy you pay to create, not simply read your mind.

maybe we all work different, I prefer to be left to just create more often than told what to do per inch.

the more i am limited the slower i work.

[eroswebmaster]

Originally posted by Sly_RJ
No. First I say "work your magic". If it isn't what I like, then I "work with the designer".

Why waste your time?
Sure you may have not had issues just yet...but why not go ahead and be prepared?

Why waste the designers time?

This has nothing to do with talent..it has everything to do with communication.

[Amp]

Originally posted by eroswebmaster
LOL I get this so often to questions like..."what exactly are you needing?"

"I don't know, just work your magic!."

This the beginning of a communication breakdown that will ultimately lead to you as the client being unhappy with the finished product more often than not.

Designers...or gallery makers..banner makers etc. We are there to translate your vision from though to reality.

It is not our vision you want, my vision will more than likely differ from yours.

So what's the point?

If you wish to contract a new designer/gallerymaker etc. Sit down and really think out what it is exactly you are wanting.

What is it you sell.

What ideas, thoughts, statements are you trying to convey.

What colors work best on your site, what fonts, what text?

Give this all to whoever it is you decide to work with and I guarantee you in the end you'll be much more happier than if the designer just worked his/her magic.

so very true... and I've said this same thing for years.

But.... the hard truth is alot of them really don't know what they want, and it then falls on you to try and extract as much information as you can, information that they may not be able to think of themselves or even regard as important to the project, (because you are the expert, not them) and use it to "work the magic"..... or as we designers like to call it, "build a composition that fits exactly into the clients strategy and purpose for needing the site in the first place".

I have found that if you grill them for too many technical/incidental details like fonts and shadows, etc.... you will only end up with a frustrated client that is convinced you can't think for yourself and need someone to hold your hand every step of the way.

So, you're function should not be to read their mind about every detail, but to squeeze a general basic idea and plan out of them and think up the rest yourself, keeping the client's best interests in mind throughout the project.

They're function should be to be able and willing to give you that basic idea, and be available for questions you may need answered along the way. If someone is extraordinarily particular about controlling every last detail, they will do that from the start. They will tell you they want 12 point Arial at the top saying "Bitches that fuck like beasts!". They will tell you they want Periwinkle Blue. So, with the exception of the occasional control freak, yes..... "working the magic" actually does fall on you.

[Sly_RJ]

Originally posted by eroswebmaster
Why waste your time?
Sure you may have not had issues just yet...but why not go ahead and be prepared?

Why waste the designers time?

This has nothing to do with talent..it has everything to do with communication.

How am I wasting my time when my main designer hits it perfect almost every time? I'd be wasting time if I spent 2-3 hours prepping a design project for him since he already has a fairly clear idea of what I want.

Couple weeks ago he built me a FPA. I had absolutely no idea what I wanted. I gave him some basic specs and things that I expected. He came back with a pretty good FPA, I had him make a couple text changes (took 5 minutes of my time) and bam, project complete and it only took 10 minutes of my time.

Had I planned out "exactly what I wanted", how much time do you think I would have wasted? A lot.

To me, a designer is more of an architect than a house painter.

[eroswebmaster]

Originally posted by Amp
so very true... and I've said this same thing for years.

But.... the hard truth is alot of them really don't know what they want, and it then falls on you to try and extract as much information as you can, information that they may not be able to think of themselves or even regard as important to the project, (because you are the expert, not them) and use it to "work the magic"..... or as we designers like to call it, "build a composition that fits exactly into the clients strategy and purpose for needing the site in the first place".

I have found that if you grill them for too many technical/incidental details like fonts and shadows, etc.... you will only end up with a frustrated client that is convinced you can't think for yourself and need someone to hold your hand every step of the way.

So, you're function should not be to read their mind about every detail, but to squeeze a general basic idea and plan out of them and think up the rest yourself, keeping the client's best interests in mind throughout the project.

They're function should be to be able and willing to give you that basic idea, and be available for questions you may need answered along the way. If someone is extraordinarily particular about controlling every last detail, they will do that from the start. They will tell you they want 12 point Arial at the top saying "Bitches that fuck like beasts!". They will tell you they want Periwinkle Blue. So, with the exception of the occasional control freak, yes..... "working the magic" actually does fall on you.

Of course I only used things like fonts for example...I normally don't ask about such things unless I show something and they say..."I don't like the font." Then I try to get an idea of what it is they want or are looking for...and even at times ask if they have something in mind.

[eroswebmaster]

Originally posted by Sly_RJ
How am I wasting my time when my main designer hits it perfect almost every time? I'd be wasting time if I spent 2-3 hours prepping a design project for him since he already has a fairly clear idea of what I want.

Couple weeks ago he built me a FPA. I had absolutely no idea what I wanted. I gave him some basic specs and things that I expected. He came back with a pretty good FPA, I had him make a couple text changes (took 5 minutes of my time) and bam, project complete and it only took 10 minutes of my time.

Had I planned out "exactly what I wanted", how much time do you think I would have wasted? A lot.

To me, a designer is more of an architect than a house painter.

If this is someone you work with on a regular basis then we're discussing apples and oranges.

Sure that person has an idea of what it is you're looking for...but if you're working with a new designer you're going to have to give them some kind of direction.

[blueboy]

I think it has to do with the experience level of the client. People that have been around, tend to say "work your magic" and not complain about the end result. Mostly, I think, because they know it's a numbers game. The more galleries they push the more traffic they get. Thus it only wastes their time to complain over a background color. And wasted time means wasted traffic. They'd rather just hire somebody else to do them if they're not happy with the end result.

On the other hand it seems that new people are often the cheapest and bicker over the smallest detail in the end result. I think they haven't figured out yet that it's a numbers game. One gallery means so much more to them than to somebody that orders 30.

[mpulse]

The upside to the "work your magic" guys are they tend to be easier to deal with and please. When someone shows up with an exact list of what they want and how they want it, expect delays and redo's, because in their mind they envision something and you need to make it exact. I like these "magic" guys because they allow you creative freedom, whereas the other guy will put you in a box. I prefer to be creative and not guided.

[blueboy]

Originally posted by mpulse
The upside to the "work your magic" guys are they tend to be easier to deal with and please. When someone shows up with an exact list of what they want and how they want it, expect delays and redo's, because in their mind they envision something and you need to make it exact. I like these "magic" guys because they allow you creative freedom, whereas the other guy will put you in a box. I prefer to be creative and not guided.

That's true too.

[eroswebmaster]

Originally posted by blueboy
I think it has to do with the experience level of the client. People that have been around, tend to say "work your magic" and not complain about the end result. Mostly, I think, because they know it's a numbers game. The more galleries they push the more traffic they get. Thus it only wastes their time to complain over a background color. And wasted time means wasted traffic. They'd rather just hire somebody else to do them if they're not happy with the end result.

On the other hand it seems that new people are often the cheapest and bicker over the smallest detail in the end result. I think they haven't figured out yet that it's a numbers game. One gallery means so much more to them than to somebody that orders 30.

This is very true.

I don't think anyone here is looking for the control freak to work with on either end..designer or client.

But I do enjoy those guys that order like 100+ galleries and not one single complaint out of them

[Amp]

Originally posted by blueboy
I think it has to do with the experience level of the client. People that have been around, tend to say "work your magic" and not complain about the end result. Mostly, I think, because they know it's a numbers game. The more galleries they push the more traffic they get. Thus it only wastes their time to complain over a background color. And wasted time means wasted traffic. They'd rather just hire somebody else to do them if they're not happy with the end result.

On the other hand it seems that new people are often the cheapest and bicker over the smallest detail in the end result. I think they haven't figured out yet that it's a numbers game. One gallery means so much more to them than to somebody that orders 30.

Bang. Dead on the money.

Given that the client is experienced, and the designer is experienced, there may be normal minor changes here and there, but usually nothing extreme unless something is just obviously really wrong.

But the inexperienced (both client and designer) just like you said, tend to nipick over every last pixel. And this doesn't mean someone should do sloppy work instead, but 14 color & font changes to decide which one you like best is absurd and the mark of inexperience. (on both sides)

[smack]

Originally posted by Fletch XXX
we're nott alking about cars and 40k, we're talking about galleries and graphics.

I get the "do your magic" all the time too and have never seen anyone complain on this board.

I dont even see what the big rush is about.

I use to help paint murals on walls during art school, the people didnt pick us to do it because we could "do what they wanted" it was because they trusted us in our own performance to do a good project.

I have watched interviews with effect studios regarding lets say Jason VS Fredy, and its the effect studio who makes the cool pinball scene, not the director, you trust the guy you pay to create, not simply read your mind.

maybe we all work different, I prefer to be left to just create more often than told what to do per inch.

the more i am limited the slower i work.

i love being left to create, but i like to make sure that the website/gallery/logo i'm making has a good deal of personal feedback from the buyer. because in the end, that site or piece of art you make represents them.

and i know if i had someone creating something for me, that i would want my hand in it from step one to completion.

but i tend to be a control freak about anything of my own.

[eroswebmaster]

Originally posted by mpulse
The upside to the "work your magic" guys are they tend to be easier to deal with and please. When someone shows up with an exact list of what they want and how they want it, expect delays and redo's, because in their mind they envision something and you need to make it exact. I like these "magic" guys because they allow you creative freedom, whereas the other guy will put you in a box. I prefer to be creative and not guided.

So far this hasn't been my experience.

The easiest people to work with are the ones who are ready.

They have images/videos all zipped up..psds..fonts...tour links etc and shoot them to you without even asking.

It's the ones who say..."work your magic," that I have to come back and draw all of the info out of them.

The point is moot now for me...we have an order form that pretty much gathers all that info now...and my project manager works with the client until everything is ready to hand over to me.

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Someone work this in there design business model philosophy and watch someone in this thread end up riddled with a complaint on a "Work your Magic" order next week on GFY

[eroswebmaster]

Originally posted by AlienQ
Someone work this in there design business model philosophy and watch someone in this thread end up riddled with a complaint on a "Work your Magic" order next week on GFY

LOL we see it daily here...complaints in one form or another and it all derives from lack of communication.
oh and scammers...LOL

[Sly_RJ]

Originally posted by eroswebmaster
So far this hasn't been my experience.

The easiest people to work with are the ones who are ready.

They have images/videos all zipped up..psds..fonts...tour links etc and shoot them to you without even asking.

It's the ones who say..."work your magic," that I have to come back and draw all of the info out of them.

The point is moot now for me...we have an order form that pretty much gathers all that info now...and my project manager works with the client until everything is ready to hand over to me.

One thing to keep in mind is everybody works differently, both clients and designers. Some designers barely need anything more than a user name and password, while others need a great deal of "stuff". I've worked with both.

[eroswebmaster]

Originally posted by Sly_RJ
One thing to keep in mind is everybody works differently, both clients and designers. Some designers barely need anything more than a user name and password, while others need a great deal of "stuff". I've worked with both.

Of course..I can deal with both..but the point still stands..communication or lack of is one of the main downfalls of business transactions..outside of scammers or course.

[cherrylula]

Originally posted by eroswebmaster
So far this hasn't been my experience.

The easiest people to work with are the ones who are ready.

They have images/videos all zipped up..psds..fonts...tour links etc and shoot them to you without even asking.

It's the ones who say..."work your magic," that I have to come back and draw all of the info out of them.

Yeah it sucks when magic translates into reading their mind.

Or the best is when someone wants a good deal, but uses another designer's killer tour design (more $$$$) as an example of what they are looking for. Especially when you don't even design like that and are not charging those prices either. That's the best type of client

[Amp]

For the designers, keep in mind, if you do a comp for someone and they don't like it for whatever reason, you don't need to look at that as a failure. Stick that comp away in your toolbox because someone somewhere WILL like it. You simply adapt it to the new guy, drop in his content and logos, and there ya go. Save everything you do whether it sells or not. If it sells, it's best to keep copies of everything for obvious reasons, and if it doesn't sell.... someday it will.

[blueboy]

One thing to keep in mind is everybody works differently, both clients and designers. Some designers barely need anything more than a user name and password, while others need a great deal of "stuff". I've worked with both.

And thus the advantage of working with the same designer over a period of time, or the experienced designer that you've really taken the time to go over their portfolios.

[Theo]

i'm like that on graphics. I lack imagination when it comes to designs, so it's very good if the designer has ideas to share and create.

[blueboy]

If it sells, it's best to keep copies of everything for obvious reasons

As long as your shit doesn't become too templated. That's one of the big disadvantages of referencing your old work to do new stuff. It becomes easier to copy old ideas, than think fresh.

[freeadultcontent]

Why can't I say "work your magic"?

Many people are forced to wear many hats in this business. Designers get to be like an advertising studio, heck they actually should be called that instead of designers.

If I was running a large company and wanted exposure for my widgets. I would go to a design firm and tell them here are my widgets help me sell them. They may ask what kind of ads I will be running or they may suggest a package that they think is best.

They then will try to get some information from me about the widgets. Then they go and do their thing. They come back with a few concepts and I would say yes that is it, or no change this and so on.

They should not be asking me what font I desire for my ad, or what pictures should I use to sell my product. They shouldnt have to ask what copy to use or what shade of baby blue do I want.

I may not be a creative type, I may not get what consumers like or dislike. I should be able to leave that vision to professionals in their field. If it does not work, yes it is either the ad firms fault or my product just sucks. I then have the choice of trying another firm or eventually relizing my product has no future. It just is not my duty to hold the ad companies hand throughout the project giving my 2 cents every step of the way.

[Fletch XXX]

where would all the rock bands be without engineers and producers?

Mutt Lange must hate it when people tell him to "work his magic"

but Back In Black sounds sooo good!

[pornstar2pac]

40 is the magic number

[eroswebmaster]

Originally posted by freeadultcontent
Why can't I say "work your magic"?

Many people are forced to wear many hats in this business. Designers get to be like an advertising studio, heck they actually should be called that instead of designers.

If I was running a large company and wanted exposure for my widgets. I would go to a design firm and tell them here are my widgets help me sell them. They may ask what kind of ads I will be running or they may suggest a package that they think is best.

They then will try to get some information from me about the widgets. Then they go and do their thing. They come back with a few concepts and I would say yes that is it, or no change this and so on.

They should not be asking me what font I desire for my ad, or what pictures should I use to sell my product. They shouldnt have to ask what copy to use or what shade of baby blue do I want.

I may not be a creative type, I may not get what consumers like or dislike. I should be able to leave that vision to professionals in their field. If it does not work, yes it is either the ad firms fault or my product just sucks. I then have the choice of trying another firm or eventually relizing my product has no future. It just is not my duty to hold the ad companies hand throughout the project giving my 2 cents every step of the way.

If you went to a an ad company to promote your product they would charge you to gather that information.

I worked in commercial production for a number of years.

There are story boards, demographics, tests that are ran...they know the ins and outs on how to sell the product.

Same thing goes from what I understand with mainstream design.

yeah in my case we're only talking galleries...but this applies to paysites as well.

I have an idea of what sells and what doesn't..but this game is surely not perfect.

I don't often have problems with clients...but when if and when I do I can guarantee you 9 times out of 10 it has to do with lack of communication.

That was one of the key things I addressed over the last couple of months and so far it's a lot smoother.

I only used fonts etc as an example....but we're talking about a general concept here...to just say..."work your magic" in response to client/designer discussions then you're leaving room for mistakes.

[NickPapageorgio]

Originally posted by eroswebmaster
LOL I get this so often to questions like..."what exactly are you needing?"

"I don't know, just work your magic!."

This the beginning of a communication breakdown that will ultimately lead to you as the client being unhappy with the finished product more often than not.

Designers...or gallery makers..banner makers etc. We are there to translate your vision from though to reality.

It is not our vision you want, my vision will more than likely differ from yours.

So what's the point?

If you wish to contract a new designer/gallerymaker etc. Sit down and really think out what it is exactly you are wanting.

What is it you sell.

What ideas, thoughts, statements are you trying to convey.

What colors work best on your site, what fonts, what text?

Give this all to whoever it is you decide to work with and I guarantee you in the end you'll be much more happier than if the designer just worked his/her magic.

Amen Brotha...can I get a witness!!

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Rules of Engagement:

If they are newbies. Don't take there money.
Anyone can make a web page. If a "Business" man has to lean on you to create his business run far away.

The killer website dreamer.
Might have money and will micromange you to lost income.
These are the guys that envision one website that will bring back Jesus to smite all competition.
There understanding of "Version control" is Zero.

The Cheap skate.
These guys are hard to identify, but often are the guys that come at you like they got huge money and big things going on and you should take a personal involvement with there project and build for them because "They are good for the money".

The I'm your friend type.
These are the guys that expect you to do design for them because "Your friends". These are the guys that are hard to say no to but trust in the fact that when you bust for em they want a discount.

Listen designers...
Seriously listen. You run a business, treat it like a business and you wont fall into the traps above.
Evaluate a client before even taking a first check.
Keep a firm rule on getting 1/2 to get a project started.
Get a reasonable amount of information on a project till your comfortable starting (With check in hand).

[freeadultcontent]

I feel there was a reason I chose you the designer. I am not going to nitpick over every detail. On average I may have 2 minor changes when I see a design. Ussually it is just something I feel when I look at it.

I keep in mind I chose you. If I do not like the final product it is my fault since I hired you to get it done. I will go back to places that worked for me or not hire those that I was unsatisfied with before.

[blueboy]

There's a lot of truth in that.

[blueboy]

Originally posted by freeadultcontent
I feel there was a reason I chose you the designer. I am not going to nitpick over every detail. On average I may have 2 minor changes when I see a design. Ussually it is just something I feel when I look at it.

I keep in mind I chose you. If I do not like the final product it is my fault since I hired you to get it done. I will go back to places that worked for me or not hire those that I was unsatisfied with before.

Yeah but believe it or not there are a lot of people that aren't careful in looking at a designer's portfolio.

[freeadultcontent]

Originally posted by blueboy
Yeah but believe it or not there are a lot of people that aren't careful in looking at a designer's portfolio.

That is their fault, not the designers though isnt it?

[snowpimp]

I want to throw in my two cents here cuz I have designers design over 20 to 30 sites/year for me. Not everyone works the same way but in my case if I want something specific, i'll let tell you exactly what I want but that's rarely the case.

But if I say "work your magic", it's cuz i have no idea or don't care what this perticular site should look like, that i like work you've done on other sites before and that I trust you to come up with something that will be creative and effective.

It's certainly important to say which sites of yours I liked and what the overall goal of the site is (IE. Gather emails, sell plugins, promote xxx, optimize conversions, give away free porn, etc) It's also important to take the time to say what key phrases I want used, what menu options i want created, exact 2257 statements, if I want SSI or php or SQL used, etc. I also find it useful to show the designer other sites that I feel achieve the objective well and voila: Work Yer Magik!

You have to understand that that's why I pay you to design. I've almost always been happy with what the designer has come up with and often have zero changes, except for the too common spelling mistakes. In 6 years, only once was it so bad that I said thanks, paid him and had someone else work their magic.

I don't have time to hold hands, I'm always in a hurry and I'm easy to please so in my case, "Work your Magic" works well for me and my designers. I can't pick fonts and colors and I'm terrible with layout, that's why I"m hiring a designer. Learn to work effectively with the buyer, ask the right questions off the bat and you'll save both a lot of time, money and aggravation.

[Amp]

Originally posted by snowpimp
I want to throw in my two cents here cuz I have designers design over 20 to 30 sites/year for me. Not everyone works the same way but in my case if I want something specific, i'll let tell you exactly what I want but that's rarely the case.

But if I say "work your magic", it's cuz i have no idea or don't care what this perticular site should look like, that i like work you've done on other sites before and that I trust you to come up with something that will be creative and effective.

It's certainly important to say which sites of yours I liked and what the overall goal of the site is (IE. Gather emails, sell plugins, promote xxx, optimize conversions, give away free porn, etc) It's also important to take the time to say what key phrases I want used, what menu options i want created, exact 2257 statements, if I want SSI or php or SQL used, etc. I also find it useful to show the designer other sites that I feel achieve the objective well and voila: Work Yer Magik!

You have to understand that that's why I pay you to design. I've almost always been happy with what the designer has come up with and often have zero changes, except for the too common spelling mistakes. In 6 years, only once was it so bad that I said thanks, paid him and had someone else work their magic.

I don't have time to hold hands, I'm always in a hurry and I'm easy to please so in my case, "Work your Magic" works well for me and my designers. I can't pick fonts and colors and I'm terrible with layout, that's why I"m hiring a designer. Learn to work effectively with the buyer, ask the right questions off the bat and you'll save both a lot of time, money and aggravation.

that's exactly what I was trying to say farther up the page. Experienced clients do not want to babysit the designer.