How will the tortured Iraqi detainees affect the war?

[Ironhorse]

All the people in the know seem to think we have already lost the war and at best we should organize a speedy power handover, call in the UN and pull our troops out before it gets worse.

And I'm not talking about the GFY 'leet intelligencia' but people I've seen interviewed by Charlie Rose, high profile reporters both in the states and abroad, as well as ambassadors, heads of state, etc.

What do you think? Seems Americans don't attach too much weight to what happened, whereas that kind of humiliation has really touched a nerve in the Arab world and likely beefed up Al Queda recruits. Discuss..

[eroswebmaster]

The only good thing about all of this...it's just cinching Shrub's defeat.

[Ironhorse]

Originally posted by eroswebmaster
The only good thing about all of this...it's just cinching Shrub's defeat.

Damn, I guess nobody else cares about this too much, really says volumes..

[theking]

In answer to the topic title...it will not affect the outcome.

[TheFrog]

Originally posted by eroswebmaster
The only good thing about all of this...it's just cinching Shrub's defeat.

so true

[Steve]

about as much effect as the recent murder on video tape of that Euro reporter

more people are bitching about what the soldiers did than that incident

[Steve]

Originally posted by eroswebmaster
The only good thing about all of this...it's just cinching Shrub's defeat.

I'll make a friendly wager of $50 that says GW wins

I'm not saying he should, or shouldn't - I'm just saying I think he'll win another term

[zzgundamnzz]

It won't effect the war that much. But it will lower the surrender rate... they'll be willing to fight more than to surrender now.

[GonePhishing]

I think it will have a very strong effect both on an international and national level. I don't think here or abroad that support for our being there was overwhelming. I think that our soldiers behaving like this not only upsets large amounts of Americans, but also gives a world who is not behind us on this action more reason to be against us. Moreover, the Iraqi people would most likely not consider this liberation.

[bufferover]

I also think that UN shoud take the control of Iraq because like you said the situation in Iraq get worst very day plus there are too many new killed US soliders and Bush oneday must pay for that war

[latinasojourn]

people with any sense should care about this.

the stupid antics of a few US Army personel could up killing several thousand men, women, and children.

the aggregate loss in human suffering will be 100-fold over what those prisoners suffered.

many innocent people who have nothing to do with the beef will become involved.

the ONLY good thing about it, is that it may sensitize enough people to vote, and make a change in US politics.

not saying Bush is all bad, but in the international arena he is VERY clumsy, with little understanding of other cultures, and very little empathy.

the war is a personal beef---the head camel jockey tried to kill his father---and the US taxpayers got taken for a ride.

"war on terror" just made it plausible.

[Queen of Hearts]

After all the brutal things that are done to our GIs, I can't get too upset about 'mistreatment of Iraqis'. There was no uproar about the rape of Jessica Lynch so why should I care about their soldiers? It would be interesting to see photos of how the Iraqis treat their prisoners but that won't happen anytime soon.

[Ironhorse]

Originally posted by Queen of Hearts
After all the brutal things that are done to our GIs, I can't get too upset about 'mistreatment of Iraqis'. There was no uproar about the rape of Jessica Lynch so why should I care about their soldiers? It would be interesting to see photos of how the Iraqis treat their prisoners but that won't happen anytime soon.

I appreciate your thoughts on this, but myself, I'm not so worried what the US citizens think about this but rather how the 1billion+ muslims (most of them under 19, undereducated and unemployed) will react to this and how it will influence the war in Iraq.

So far most people seem to think it's no big deal, even as the climate in the muslim world is reaching a boiling point. Nobody watches the news??

[Paul Waters]

Originally posted by Ironhorse


What do you think? Seems Americans don't attach too much weight to what happened, whereas that kind of humiliation has really touched a nerve in the Arab world and likely beefed up Al Queda recruits. Discuss..

I think this is a profound observation.

How to motivate the enemy in ways you never dreamed......

[reynold]

The Iraqis will definitely have to think twice before surrendering or getting captured alive. This incident will leave an ugly mark on them.

[Rochard]

Tib....

Have you read Bravo Two Zero by Andy McNab? If not let me know. I'll send it to you.

You'll be in tears as you read it.

[Ian]

No effect.

The Arab propaganda machine is working overtime and the US is doing damage control over a bunch of reservist idiots.

Last week the Palestinians murdered a pregnant Israeli woman and her children.

Bet that didn't make many headlines in the Arab World Press.


PS: I don't think the guerrillas who are currently contesting the US forces in Iraq would even consider surrender.

It's not written anywhere in their training manual.

[Mr.Fiction]

It is pretty obvious that the damage is huge when you have Bush out there trying to kiss the Arab's asses on Arab TV stations.

Anyone who can't see how big this is, just take a look at the White House response. These Bush administration idiots never apologize for anything, but they are scared to death of this issue.

The Washington Post has 1000 new photos from Iraq, so this is going to get even worse:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4908787/

[xenophobic]

Originally posted by RocHard
Tib....

Have you read Bravo Two Zero by Andy McNab? If not let me know. I'll send it to you.

You'll be in tears as you read it.

I read it, wasn't in tears though :|
you should also check out "No one Left Behind" the story of Scott Speicher, likewise talks about the atrocities the Iraqi's committed at the same prison the photo's of the American soldiers were taken.

However, if we are going to bring "Freedom" to Iraq, and denounce treatment of the people of Iraq, by Saddam it would be wise to not follow in his footsteps.

[Fletch XXX]

ARE THEY EVEN HUMAN?

[newsdude]

For sure, it didn't stop the war!

[Paul Markham]

Originally posted by theking
In answer to the topic title...it will not affect the outcome.

No he's right for once. Bush was going to lose in Iraq in the post war era. This will only make it come faster for him.

He made a big mistake and the US is going to have to pay for it. Bush asks for $25bn for war costs

[Giorgio_Xo]

Do you know that the Bush Administration hasn't even issued a formal apology? They are avoiding it at all costs. Pathetic.

[Mr.Fiction]

Originally posted by Giorgio_Xo
Do you know that the Bush Administration hasn't even issued a formal apology? They are avoiding it at all costs. Pathetic.

Bush is doing interviews on Arab TV telling the Middle East how much we love them - that's probably as close to an apology as he's ever been.

When you see Bush speaking Arabic, you know the shit has hit the fan.

[directfiesta]

Originally posted by Queen of Hearts
There was no uproar about the rape of Jessica Lynch so why should I care about their soldiers?

" rape of Jessica Lynch " ???? hahahaha you must be kidding??? read her story, the one she says.

" their soldiers"???? Most prisonners are civilians rounded up because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time

And don't forget: Americans called themselves " liberators" and " defensors of the justice". Your president repeated time after time that he " closed" the " rape" rooms....

Get informed

[Paul Markham]

Originally posted by Ironhorse

So far most people seem to think it's no big deal, even as the climate in the muslim world is reaching a boiling point. Nobody watches the news??

You have to remember US news is controlled by corperations, most of whom support Bush.

American News coverage is very poor, except for CNN and a few exceptions. The problem is most Americans watch Good Morning America for their News.

[Paul Markham]

Originally posted by Giorgio_Xo
Do you know that the Bush Administration hasn't even issued a formal apology? They are avoiding it at all costs. Pathetic.

Not true.

White House apologises for abuses

See what I mean? You want to know what's happening go to the BBC.

[sumphatpimp]

I think there is alot more to this than what we are being told.
Not once did I hear on the news or on this board "are these pics real or photoshop" you know damn well they could be. They could be faked just to give Bush a chance to get out of the middle east or they could be staged if not photoshoped for a lot of reasons. No 1 questioned the authenticity of the pics.

Bush is stuck and needs to find a way out. Now he has an excuse to go over there a cut a deal. He will turn it over to the UN and the iraqi's and run like hell, and hope to get reelected.

[directfiesta]

Originally posted by sumphatpimp
I think there is alot more to this than what we are being told.

Army reveals wider abuses

Criminal probes targeted 10 cases of suspicious death
By Douglas Jehl and Eric Schmitt
New York Times News Service

WASHINGTON ? In the last 16 months, the Army has conducted more than 20 criminal investigations into misconduct by American captors in Iraq and Afghanistan, including 10 cases of suspicious death, 10 cases of abuse, and two deaths already determined to have been criminal homicides, the Army's vice chief of staff said Tuesday.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595060929,00.html

LIBERATION : PRICELESS!

[bhutocracy]

there will definately be an effect.. just probably not a huge one.
I mentioned earlier that this will help terrorist recruitment stiffen resolve turn the iraqi moderates against us etc.. but one of the other concerns is seeing the so called "coalition" crumble further as support for the war in coalition countries took significant hits after this latest round of "torture" disclosure.
Most of these countries residents didn't want to follow the US in in the first place and now it's getting harder for them to rationalise staying there and having this "rub off" on them.

Not that the coalition members mean fuck all to the actual effort however.

[The Truth Hurts]

only people making a stink about this are US..

the rest of the world coundn't give a fuck about this trivial bullshit.

Bush did his little apology.. and Frankensteins monster Kerry didn't think that was enough... I'm guessing Kerry would've personally gone down on each of the "tortured" prisoners as a gesture of good will...

[directfiesta]

Originally posted by The Truth Hurts
only people making a stink about this are US..

the rest of the world coundn't give a fuck about this trivial bullshit.

Bush did his little apology.. and Frankensteins monster Kerry didn't think that was enough... I'm guessing Kerry would've personally gone down on each of the "tortured" prisoners as a gesture of good will...

As usual.... Sure, nobody cares ... lol ....

BTW, can you link to the " apology" that BUSH made ( please, not his army general or even speaker, but HIM) ... Just like when "TheKing" says : Bush never said that... because the afdministration said it, not him...

SO " text and link of apology....

[theking]

Originally posted by charly
No he's right for once. Bush was going to lose in Iraq in the post war era. This will only make it come faster for him.

He made a big mistake and the US is going to have to pay for it. Bush asks for $25bn for war costs

You lying...cluless...old man...the"mission" in Iraq will only be lost if the American people withdraw their support and demand a withdrawal. If this happens it will not be the Administration's loss alone...but a loss for the Democratic Nations of the World.

[The Truth Hurts]

Originally posted by directfiesta
please, not his army general or even speaker, but HIM

Why? Every fucking time ANYONE in his admin does or says anything you disagree with, you auto-fucking-matically pin it right on Bush... so stick with your fucking routine like the well trained monkey you are, and pin their apologies to bush.

[KRL]

I think I have a headache from hearing about the entire Middle East for the past 40 years.

It basically is one of the most fucked up places on the planet. I don't think anything will change no matter what we do or what anyone else does over there.

[Mr.Fiction]

Originally posted by theking
You lying...cluless...old man...the"mission" in Iraq will only be lost if the American people withdraw their support and demand a withdrawal.

The NBC News-Wall Street Journal poll found that 42 percent of registered voters say it was worth the cost to get rid of Saddam and 47 percent felt it was not worth it.

More than half, 55 percent, said they favor withdrawing U.S. troops within 18 months. The number willing to say troops should stay as long as necessary has fallen to 44 percent from 56 percent in January.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2553058

[theking]

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
The NBC News-Wall Street Journal poll found that 42 percent of registered voters say it was worth the cost to get rid of Saddam and 47 percent felt it was not worth it.

More than half, 55 percent, said they favor withdrawing U.S. troops within 18 months. The number willing to say troops should stay as long as necessary has fallen to 44 percent from 56 percent in January.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2553058

I am aware of the numbers and the variance of numbers on different polls...but withdrawing support is not usually enough in and of itself to change policy...their has to be a "demand" such as took place during the Vietnam era.

[Ironhorse]

Originally posted by Paul Waters
I think this is a profound observation.

How to motivate the enemy in ways you never dreamed......

Are you implying the US Army did this on purpose to boost up enemy recruiting and escalate the war?

[pure energy]

It seems as if the US Army has been doing a lot of fucked up things lately with Iraqis. Is this part of their training?

[jayeff]

Originally posted by KRL
I think I have a headache from hearing about the entire Middle East for the past 40 years.

It basically is one of the most fucked up places on the planet. I don't think anything will change no matter what we do or what anyone else does over there.

Ummm... isn't most of what is going on over there a consequence of what we have been doing for the past 40, make that 80, years?

It wasn't maybe the smartest thing to base the whole economy on a declining natural resource. And perhaps we should have settled for just cheap oil and not also wanted American companies to take most of the profits for getting it out of the ground.

But the reason so many chickens are flying home to roost these days, is not what US foreign policy set out to achieve, but the sheer arrogance of attempting to act as a puppeteer for an entire region of the planet. If you are uncomfortable with arrogant, perhaps stupid would be better.

Did we really think because we were able to buy Manhattan for a few beads, that we could get away with the same trick 300 years later in the Middle East? Yet apparently someone thought the Arabs would go on living the life of desert savages and not notice, or if notice, not care, that the US got richer and richer from their oil?

One obvious flaw is that the Arabs were not savages. They had a different culture, but it was much older than that of the West. The Arabs knew about writing and medicine long before our ancestors did. By the time we did our beads for land trick, the Middle East had been the crossroads of the world's most important trade routes for 300 years. Arab traders were famous across the whole of Northern Africa and throughout the Mediterranean.

Sure there were tribal and religious differences in the region. And in the vacuum left after the First World War, when for the first time in two thousand years there was no occupying power, it wasn't surprising these would surface. But again such arrogance and stupidity to think no-one would notice that we were trying to manipulate all these factions and play them off against each other. The rise of Arab nationalism is just the sound of more roosting hens flying home.

Now Iraq, a country with 60% of its population Shi'ite moslems. A country to which we are supposedly bringing Western-style democracy while knowing full well that we cannot allow the Shi'ites to take power. The Shi'ites spiritual home is Iran and for 50 years the US has done everything to keep Iran and Iraq apart. But what has actually been achieved is to make a hitherto impossible alliance between Arab Iraq and Persian Iran, not only possible, but almost inevitable.

In Iran, the US is known as the "Great Satan". Iran and Iraq have the 2nd and 3rd largest oil reserves in the world (top is Saudi Arabia). What a victory for foreign policy when these two nations are allied against a common enemy.