The US is ***So*** Owned In Iraq

[Paul Waters]

I have finished watching Russert's Meet The Press, and it is loud and clear.

Both religeous groups are opposing you. Even the one Hussain oppressed.

The Iraqi army will not fight Iraqi insergents.

You are regarded as an invading occupying force, and you are very unwelcome.

The leader of the proposed provisional government is being paid 350,000 a month, and is related (brother?) to the *source* of the WMD intelligence.

*Victory* is totally undefined. Closest definition is peace and order...... which existed before the invasion.

**Democracy** is painted as the holy grail, but there is no evidence that the people want it.

Iraq stikes me as more tribal. The leaders will end up being the religious leaders. They will inevitably oppose the US.

This is a total fuck-up.

Saddam was the best dictator ally that the US has had since Batista, and it all got fucked up.

All because of a misunderstanding in which he thought he had your permission to invade Kuwait, after spending all his country's assets fighting Iran for you.....

[zzgundamnzz]

Who's Hussain?

[dav555add]

Problem is, the United States does not want to offend the "Muslims" people.
When you fight a war, people get killed. If you are not prepared to kill people, then don't start a damn war !
US troops have to be shot at before opening fire, in other words, once Iraqi shoot 'em and kill a couple of US soldiers, then US troops can return fire.
If the United States put their foot down and razed a few villages, the Iraqis insurgents would get the message, but the way it's going, no one is affraid of the US and the war will drag on.

[zzgundamnzz]

Originally posted by dav555add
Problem is, the United States does not want to offend the "Muslims" people.
When you fight a war, people get killed. If you are not prepared to kill people, then don't start a damn war !
US troops have to be shot at before opening fire, in other words, once Iraqi shoot 'em and kill a couple of US soldiers, then US troops can return fire.
If the United States put their foot down and razed a few villages, the Iraqis insurgents would get the message, but the way it's going, no one is affraid of the US and the war will drag on.

It would be easier if they did that for sure. But it doesn't insure victory. Remember what happend to the Russians

[slackologist]

Originally posted by dav555add
Problem is, the United States does not want to offend the "Muslims" people.
When you fight a war, people get killed. If you are not prepared to kill people, then don't start a damn war !
US troops have to be shot at before opening fire, in other words, once Iraqi shoot 'em and kill a couple of US soldiers, then US troops can return fire.
If the United States put their foot down and razed a few villages, the Iraqis insurgents would get the message, but the way it's going, no one is affraid of the US and the war will drag on.

yeah and i'm sure all the people that died in the bombings shot out the window at the plane just before it dropped the bomb.

[jpwhits]

is that USD350,000

[Doctor Dre]

No doubt that will be one of the worst thing to ever happen to the states with Vietnam.

[DaLord]

The US (and many many many of you guys) wanted the war. Now you got it. Deal with it.

[NoCarrier]

They don't give a fuck about democracy.

At least in Vietnam you had the south vietnamese that didn't want the NVA controlling the country. There was at least support from one side .

[dav555add]

Originally posted by zzgundamnzz


It would be easier if they did that for sure. But it doesn't insure victory. Remember what happend to the Russians

It's different in Afghanistan, different terrains and landscape.

Plus, the Russians are paper tigers, can't fight for shit, at least not since WW2.

[dav555add]

Originally posted by slackologist


yeah and i'm sure all the people that died in the bombings shot out the window at the plane just before it dropped the bomb.

What he said?

[dav555add]

Originally posted by NoCarrier
They don't give a fuck about democracy.

At least in Vietnam you had the south vietnamese that didn't want the NVA controlling the country. There was at least support from one side .

That's correct, it's like they have the battered wife syndrome, they got beat so much under saddam that they can't envision living free...

[BeHeadR]

No, this is actually the beginning of WWIII, 9/11 will be considered the start.

[Lane]

Originally posted by dav555add
If the United States put their foot down and razed a few villages, the Iraqis insurgents would get the message

keep believing that

[dav555add]

Originally posted by Lane


keep believing that

Israel kick the shit out of Syria, Jordan, Egypt...
Do you see them trying anything?
Mouhamarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Kadahfiiiiiii, pissed in his pants when he saw his boyfriend Saddam with American fingers in his mouth, that's why he became a peace lover suddenly.
The only reason Palestinians are still planting bombs is because the world is pressuring Israel not to crush them like they crushed Egypt, Syria and Jordan.
Arabs are just like every hahahaha else, you give them a good beating and they will shut the fuck up

[anton69]

what's your point?

of course they're all opposed to us being there, we're an invading army. we haven't left yet because our government hasn't gotten what it wants yet. it wants to set up a government that we can control. why would they want that?


I can define "victory" for you easily. it is the word a president uses to define the ambiguous end of a war occuring during his term. See re-election for further definition.

why would they want democracy? they've never had it before. people don't embrace change. Also it is what the U.S. is (but not really...) and that has been demonized. I'm not saying they should have a democracy- i don't really give a fuck. people never know what's best for them, regardless of reality. the iraqi people are most likely not even ready for a democracy.

what is a total fuck-up? it was retarded from the beginning. it's a war about economics, power, and rhetoric. In my personal experience most of us Americans think that we're in Iraq because they blew up the world trade center.

This entire situation is a clear example of how most people will believe whatever they are immersed in. The rest of the world thinking that the US is so fucking "owned" don't realize that your smug happiness over "our" failure in this war doesn't take into account that you are being just as manipulated by your country and media as Americans are. Learn some critical thinking skills.

[dav555add]

Originally posted by anton69
what's your point?

of course they're all opposed to us being there, we're an invading army. we haven't left yet because our government hasn't gotten what it wants yet. it wants to set up a government that we can control. why would they want that?


I can define "victory" for you easily. it is the word a president uses to define the ambiguous end of a war occuring during his term. See re-election for further definition.

why would they want democracy? they've never had it before. people don't embrace change. Also it is what the U.S. is (but not really...) and that has been demonized. I'm not saying they should have a democracy- i don't really give a fuck. people never know what's best for them, regardless of reality. the iraqi people are most likely not even ready for a democracy.

what is a total fuck-up? it was retarded from the beginning. it's a war about economics, power, and rhetoric. In my personal experience most of us Americans think that we're in Iraq because they blew up the world trade center.

This entire situation is a clear example of how most people will believe whatever they are immersed in. The rest of the world thinking that the US is so fucking "owned" don't realize that your smug happiness over "our" failure in this war doesn't take into account that you are being just as manipulated by your country and media as Americans are. Learn some critical thinking skills.

This war is senseless. I don't give a shit about the freedom of the Iraqi people, just like every one here.
The Iraqi people want a dictator, if not saddam then they'll elect some fucking mullah or ayatollah.
If I was the President, I'll put back saddam in power and tell those sand fuckers to go fuck them selves and see how saddam cronies deal with those that beat his portrait with their shoes.
I will not vote for Bush again, but I will not vote for Kerry either.
Fuck this war, bring back our troops home and FUCK THE IRAQI PEOPLE.
I am sick and tired of hearing our government leaders talking about our troops dying for the liberation of iraq
Fuck Iraq

[Axeman]

yep the US is very unwanted there. Its just going to get worse.

[KRL]

You quacky haters need to go fuck yourself for real.

The US is the most powerful country on the planet. Not bragging about that, but you should be thanking your lucky stars its us and not some dictatorship at the wheel.

And I'm not saying we're perfect as a country nor in the role of the planets primary superpower, but what country is? Everyone has their good and bad.

Hopefully at the end of the day the world will be a little more advanced and better off than it was yesterday.

[slackologist]

Originally posted by KRL
You quacky haters need to go fuck yourself for real.

The US is the most powerful country on the planet. Not bragging about that, but you should be thanking your lucky stars its us and not some dictatorship at the wheel.

And I'm not saying we're perfect as a country nor in the role of the planets primary superpower, but what country is? Everyone has their good and bad.

Hopefully at the end of the day the world will be a little more advanced and better off than it was yesterday.

Who is hating what exactly?

[bhutocracy]

when the shiites and sunnis teamed up together in the 20's rebellion Winston Churchhill called Iraq the "Ungrateful Volcano". It's the same this time around - people think the Iraqi's have something to be grateful for because it's what we were told repetitively how we'd be greeted with flowers etc and we were bringing them "freedom"(as long as we still controlled them), Iraqi's are starting to want Saddam back. Lets face it we'll never let them have a real democracy because they'll vote the people we don't want in.

[KRL]

Originally posted by slackologist


Who is hating what exactly?

The people on this board that do nothing but constantly knock the USA.

Maybe we should let the Islamic Extremists take over the planet and let you all have a taste of what hell is like.

[dav555add]

Originally posted by KRL


The people on this board that do nothing but constantly knock the USA.

Maybe we should let the Islamic Extremists take over the planet and let you all have a taste of what hell is like.

I conccur
But, when you are the most powerful nation in the wolrd, you shouldn't be affraid to use your power. When threatened with anihilation the arabs will do like the Japs, surrender...

[anton69]

what's your point?

of course they're all opposed to us being there, we're an invading army. we haven't left yet because our government hasn't gotten what it wants yet. it wants to set up a government that we can control. why would they want that?


I can define "victory" for you easily. it is the word a president uses to define the ambiguous end of a war occuring during his term. See re-election for further definition.

why would they want democracy? they've never had it before. people don't embrace change. Also it is what the U.S. is (but not really...) and that has been demonized. I'm not saying they should have a democracy- i don't really give a fuck. people never know what's best for them, regardless of reality. the iraqi people are most likely not even ready for a democracy.

what is a total fuck-up? it was retarded from the beginning. it's a war about economics, power, and rhetoric. In my personal experience most of us Americans think that we're in Iraq because they blew up the world trade center.

This entire situation is a clear example of how most people will believe whatever they are immersed in. The rest of the world thinking that the US is so fucking "owned" don't realize that your smug happiness over "our" failure in this war doesn't take into account that you are being just as manipulated by your country and media as Americans are. Learn some critical thinking skills.

[slackologist]

Originally posted by KRL


The people on this board that do nothing but constantly knock the USA.

Maybe we should let the Islamic Extremists take over the planet and let you all have a taste of what hell is like.

Maybe if you look further into some people's arguments ( perhaps not all ) you might see they are not against the U.S but the abuse of power that occurs.

Just because someone does not agree with something in it's entirety does not mean they want the opposite. Just because people want change in something does not mean they dislike the whole. I'm sure you understand that.

[slackologist]

It's not a black and white/ 2 sided argument.

[Ash@phpFX]

in summary:

bush is a fucking idiot

[dav555add]

Originally posted by asher
in summary:

bush is a fucking idiot

[FuckFind]

Originally posted by KRL
You quacky haters need to go fuck yourself for real.

The US is the most powerful country on the planet. Not bragging about that, but you should be thanking your lucky stars its us and not some dictatorship at the wheel.

And I'm not saying we're perfect as a country nor in the role of the planets primary superpower, but what country is? Everyone has their good and bad.

Hopefully at the end of the day the world will be a little more advanced and better off than it was yesterday.

Very true and good post, and at the end of the day, that was our only intention, perceive how you like.

No one on this board lives in Iraq (at least i'm assuming not) so ANY opinion you so freely offer is tainted from 3000 miles away, blanked by media coverage and "targetted" interviews to get you thinking what you do.

If you were in a soldier's shoes, a politician's shoes, or a citizen of Iraq shoe's, I guarantee you'd laugh at everything you've posted.... whether for, against, neutral, pissed, or upset.

Either way, I know a few people fighting the war now, and have many friends here that are training and preparing to go into similar situations.

With great power comes great responsibility, we can only hope our chosen authorities make decisions based on correct and justified set of priorities.

A Realistic FF!

[directfiesta]

Originally posted by asher
in summary:

bush is a fucking idiot

Best Cliff notes to date...

[dav555add]

[Paul Markham]

Originally posted by dav555add
Problem is, the United States does not want to offend the "Muslims" people.
When you fight a war, people get killed. If you are not prepared to kill people, then don't start a damn war !
US troops have to be shot at before opening fire, in other words, once Iraqi shoot 'em and kill a couple of US soldiers, then US troops can return fire.
If the United States put their foot down and razed a few villages, the Iraqis insurgents would get the message, but the way it's going, no one is affraid of the US and the war will drag on.

Problem is you are dealing with a religion that believes to die for it ensures a place in heaven, they are fighting for THEIR country and the US soldiers don't give a dam and just want to get home.

Look back at Vietnam and see what a 3rd world country can do.

Anyone who thinks the US will get out of Iraq looking good, with a profit and without the loss of a lot of American lives is a fool. Just like the guy who decided to send the troops there in the first place.

[Paul Markham]

Originally posted by KRL
You quacky haters need to go fuck yourself for real.

The US is the most powerful country on the planet. Not bragging about that, but you should be thanking your lucky stars its us and not some dictatorship at the wheel.

And I'm not saying we're perfect as a country nor in the role of the planets primary superpower, but what country is? Everyone has their good and bad.

Hopefully at the end of the day the world will be a little more advanced and better off than it was yesterday.

Just because I oppose Bush and this war does not in any way mean that I hate the US. In fact if given the choice I hate Muslims more.

I oppose the war in Iraq and supported the war in Afghanistan.

I love the US and visiting there, in fact there are parts I would love to live in, just noparts I would like to work in. I own a US home, business, bank account, SSN and pay US taxes. Plus have a mother I support living there and a brother.

Critism is not hating.

[Paul Markham]

Originally posted by FuckFind


With great power comes great responsibility, we can only hope our chosen authorities make decisions based on correct and justified set of priorities.

Very true.

However the decisions on Iraq were flawed at best. The thinking behind it was even more flawed. With no "Intelligence and Advisors" I said;

The peace will be harder to win than the war.
I said there are no WMDs.
Fundamentalist will take over and run Iraq after the war.
It will create more hatred against the US.

Now tell me I was wrong.

[m00d]

Originally posted by BeHeadR
No, this is actually the beginning of WWIII, 9/11 will be considered the start.

[B40]

[broke]

Originally posted by charly
Problem is you are dealing with a religion that believes to die for it ensures a place in heaven, they are fighting for THEIR country and the US soldiers don't give a dam and just want to get home.

Look back at Vietnam and see what a 3rd world country can do.

Do you honestly think for a second the GIs in Vietnam couldn't have taken everything they wanted, if they didn't have their hands tied behind their backs?

Vietnam was the advent of 'modern warfare'...

Don't let troops do their work without waiting for some 'leader' to view some public opinion polls.

The 'Marshall Plan' would never work today...

Smart bombs and selective warfare will never break a population to the point where they accept a reconstruction plan.

Originally posted by charly
Anyone who thinks the US will get out of Iraq looking good, with a profit and without the loss of a lot of American lives is a fool. Just like the guy who decided to send the troops there in the first place.

More Charly blah, blah, blah...

I don't care about looking good, profit was never a concern, and people die in war.

[BlueDesignStudios]

Originally posted by B40

Hahhahaha

[Pleasurepays]

Originally posted by anton69
what's your point?

of course they're all opposed to us being there, we're an invading army.

huh?

i thought we were a "liberating" army.

[m00d]

Originally posted by B40

i hope that is photoshopped, if not that soldier should be court martialed immediately

[pornstar2pac]

40- I'm proud to be an american. hang in there US Soldiers.

[BlueDesignStudios]

Any idiot who things they can impose a 'democratic' government on a muslim country is just that... an idiot..

The whole basis of the islamic religion is inconsistant with a democracy.

[BlueDesignStudios]

Originally posted by m00d
i hope that is photoshopped, if not that soldier should be court martialed immediately

I'm 99.99% sure it's one of those caption pic things where you can enter your own text..

[Paul Markham]

Originally posted by broke

Do you honestly think for a second the GIs in Vietnam couldn't have taken everything they wanted, if they didn't have their hands tied behind their backs?

Vietnam was the advent of 'modern warfare'...

Don't let troops do their work without waiting for some 'leader' to view some public opinion polls.

More Charly blah, blah, blah...

I don't care about looking good, profit was never a concern, and people die in war.

One of the reasons they never marched into North Vietnam and bombed it relentlessly was the world as it was then. LBJ was frightened of involving the Russians and Chinese. Remember the Cold War? Remember what happened in N. Korea when the US troops rolled up the country and the Chinese army rolled them back?

What did Lincoln mean when he said "Goverment of the people, by the people and for the people" or something similar. Does that mean ignoring public opinion?

Vietnam was a stupid, usless, unwinnable war that achieved nothing but the deaths of over 2 million people, to be followed in Cambodia by Pol Pot.

What is this war about then?

[FuckFind]

Originally posted by charly
Very true.

However the decisions on Iraq were flawed at best. The thinking behind it was even more flawed. With no "Intelligence and Advisors" I said;

The peace will be harder to win than the war.
I said there are no WMDs.
Fundamentalist will take over and run Iraq after the war.
It will create more hatred against the US.

Now tell me I was wrong.

There is no telling what will happen, "right and wrong" is an opinion, it'll come down to the resulting factual information after the war in terms of health, per capita GDP, and specifically...

ENTITLEMENTS, something which Iraqs have lacked, that the majority of us so freely take for granted.

Entitlements, if you didn't know, is a concept attributed to Amartya Sen which basically captures the idea that if a person can work or sell his product and earn $200 bucks, he can save this money in terms of endowment, or can freely trade this money in exchange entitlements. This gives him economic capability, which can spring load TRUE development.

Though most people focus on INCOME, it is an a true representation of a person's entitlements. Income cannot give you the capability of seeing a doctor, going to school, participating in politics, living a long and healthy life, etc..

In the case of Iraq, true development cannot occur for the mass population without intervention because of the dictatorship of the Husseins, and entitlements or capabilities are not an option for these people without the removal of this system and the building of some sort of organized foundation and structure of improvement.... which, as I see it, is the goal. I think too many people lean on the idea that we are trying to turn Iraq into an American counterpart, not just a "better place to be."





FF!

[FuckFind]

"Though most people focus on INCOME, it is an a true representation "

should read

Though most people focus on INCOME, it is not a true representation ...

damn 1 minute edit

FF

[slackologist]

Originally posted by FuckFind

I think too many people lean on the idea that we are trying to turn Iraq into an American counterpart, not just a "better place to be."

What a 'better place to be' is should be defined by the people that live there not external powers.

[broke]

Originally posted by charly
One of the reasons they never marched into North Vietnam and bombed it relentlessly was the world as it was then. LBJ was frightened of involving the Russians and Chinese. Remember the Cold War? Remember what happened in N. Korea when the US troops rolled up the country and the Chinese army rolled them back?

I remember LBJ giving into many paper tigers... and your point is? My main point was not about LBJ and his hand tying of troops that could have and would have done their job militarily...

My point was you will never again see (after the advent of 'modern warfare') a population accept a rebuilding plan.

Originally posted by charly
What did Lincoln mean when he said "Goverment of the people, by the people and for the people" or something similar. Does that mean ignoring public opinion?

You are the one ignoring public opinion.

[Paul Markham]

Originally posted by FuckFind


There is no telling what will happen, "right and wrong" is an opinion, it'll come down to the resulting factual information after the war in terms of health, per capita GDP, and specifically...

ENTITLEMENTS, something which Iraqs have lacked, that the majority of us so freely take for granted.

Entitlements, if you didn't know, is a concept attributed to Amartya Sen which basically captures the idea that if a person can work or sell his product and earn $200 bucks, he can save this money in terms of endowment, or can freely trade this money in exchange entitlements. This gives him economic capability, which can spring load TRUE development.

Though most people focus on INCOME, it is an a true representation of a person's entitlements. Income cannot give you the capability of seeing a doctor, going to school, participating in politics, living a long and healthy life, etc..

In the case of Iraq, true development cannot occur for the mass population without intervention because of the dictatorship of the Husseins, and entitlements or capabilities are not an option for these people without the removal of this system and the building of some sort of organized foundation and structure of improvement.... which, as I see it, is the goal. I think too many people lean on the idea that we are trying to turn Iraq into an American counterpart, not just a "better place to be."

FF!

Basically imposing Western, Christian values on a Middle East Muslim country. Now I see why the US is spending billions a week. It's crystal clear now thanks.

At the moment the only fly in the ointment are the Iraqi people, but they can be won over when they see the reasons you have applied.

[slackologist]

Originally posted by broke


I remember LBJ giving into many paper tigers... and your point is? My main point was not about LBJ and his hand tying of troops that could have and would have done their job militarily...

My point was you will never again see (after the advent of 'modern warfare') a population accept a rebuilding plan.

Are you saying that the U.S was not defeated in NK by China?