50 ready webmasters

if rebills are against MC's and VISA's regulations any recurring
billing reported by clients will be marked as fraud charges. (since
rebills werent supposed to happen.. remember).

So unless you want to lose your merchant account, think of something else Einstein.

I beleive that in the future you will be billed via your connection as apposed to a 3rd party product such as a credit card.

It makes total sense, the carrier should charge the surfer a 'tax' to view other networks and then pay the site owner.

Theres no reasons for chargebacks as the connection is logged blah blah blah.....

One key issue remain, the revenue share who gets what.

The futures bright :-)

your keep surprising me hooper.

First the 'auto recurring' software you were selling with the
rebill part of the purchase hidden in the terms and now this:

i would be VERY worried if i was one of your affiliates..you seem to
have the business strategy qualities of a fucking tomato.

The day rebills are impossible, is the day GFY freezes over...

and you are who?

What he said. It's unlikely it will happen any time soon and if/when it does sites will still be allowed to offer a rebilling option OF COURSE, like others said mainstream all over is just as depedant on rebilling. And when you allow sites to offer a rebilling option its just about have the right type of business mind to exploit that. Shouldn't worry about it really though my site with verotel doesn't rebill auto anyways a lot of ppl still choose to extend.
I'm ready!

BTW, I see threads like this every 4 months :2 cents:

yeah, these threads have been posted since 98-99.

the end is near. the sky is falling. run.

First I think if you have a exclusive content not plugin crap and tired bought content, I think no rebills wont be the end of the world. This one case where the small single girl sites will do better than the big mega site. The members connect with the girl and they will keep coming back. My wife has active members (meaning they belong to the site and she chats with them at least once a week) that are over 24 months recurring. Big sites cant create that personal experience. Also some depend on cross selling trials, which would stop. I think the affilliates lives would change the most. Then on the other hand there is checks, if they have a credit card they have a checking account. I think third party billers should really be focusing on taking that to the next level.

Good point. :)

Its very interesting how many people insist that rebilling is the Sacred Cow and that CC companies would not kill it. Or how its the bedrock of this industry.

I don't think its effective to use ad hominem attacks to dispel notions that certain people can't "think outside the rebill box"

If the premise is faulty, I won't even touch the conclusion.

Doesn't vitiate their message or the importance of looking ahead

Come on guys (Hooper, Mr Thumbs) let's keep this thread out of the ad hominen school of "reasoning" and keep to facts/observations/trends to back up your arguments.

We're all here to learn. Well, at least I am.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. If you're interested in reducing your chargeback and other liability, let me know. Any time there are obstacles in the way, it just leads to someone finding an opportunity in them...

Good post, man. Very eye opening. The possibilities are definitely there. However, there are technical issues as well re security/fraud prevention. However, the 'per use' model definitely may work.

I wonder what the impact would be on cookie cutter programs / mega sites out there

I agree, KK. That's why hopefully threads like this will push this issue to the forefront. The answer(s) are out there.

Just have to sidestep the denial and constricted thinking and negativity to get to the good stuff.

BTW, perhaps ( and I hope so ) some companies are already working on a possible solution, just don't post about it on GFY. :2 cents:

IMO i don't think that VISA/MC will ever eliminate rebilling. even with a 15% charge back rate, they are still making too much money to eliminate it completely. I think they will tighten restrictions on chargebacks, just like the phone companies have. They will not issue a refund or charge back if a person complains about a dialer. (my dad unknowingly downloaded one) even with threats of canceling the account. (we now use MCI) They have already started putting stricter regulations in:

check out VISA's website, http://usa.visa.com/media/business/e....pdf?it=search they are a few hints that this will be the next step.

Glad to see I'm not the only one looking at the silver lining in the storm cloud :)

:thumbsup
For once, I agree with you mrthumbs! :winkwink:
(although I pray rebilling continues forever)

Possible give access by Dialers with International numbers for example.

SMS BILLING?? hahaha.. maybe when the fucking telco's stop taking 50%+ of the transaction.

WRONG, Visa makes $10-50 million a year max, that is fuck all from the online porn biz.

$1 billion in sales x 65% (visa) = 650 million
$650 million x 1.5 % visa makes per transaction (banks take the rest) = $9.75 million.

1 billion in sales and 10 million in revenue NOT profit. And the porn biz is a pain in the ass compared to other online purchases.

Visa doesn't give a rats ass about that and will require more rules as the year goes on.

I get quite a few 6 month, non-recurring sign ups. Losing rebills would hurt, but for sites with good content & member interaction, it definitely wouldn't be the end of business.

The math's not quite right but it will work for a hypotheses.

The problem isn't Visa or the few banks that still acquire high risk, the problem is the fact that the issuing banks and the acquiring banks that don't take high risk are the ones ending up losing money on the whole deal.

thanks for the backup plan

Just wondering why the issuing banks and the acquiring banks that don't take high risk would be losing money if Visa/Mastercard stopped taking adult? Not sure how those banks would be affected, since they are already not taking adult.

i signed up some months ago for a WEBMASTER service that aol offers with the help of a 2nd company and they give you a 2 months free trial or a limit of usage.

When you exceed it your credit card is billed. I dont remember if they notify you (i need to check my card statement if already got billed). Most probably it's auto-recurring as well.

The first thing you read is the way they bill you. It's impossible not to be aware of it and proceed to signup.

Mainstream industry makes use of rebills as well, but in a much lower degree. It's going to be time consuming for many to signup every month or so for their isp connection, music services like napster and so on.


** what makes adult webmasters to bring so often the rebills topic on table while mainstream ones they have never thought of it? But of course the abuse is done by the adult industry and none else **

backup plan : check processing/ach debit

Great post! Very informative.

Definitely makes more sense than the wishful thinking drivel many PPS webmasters.

The larger PPS guys out there have widely divering strategies in dealing with this HUGE meteor headed our way.

Some would rather attack people for bringing up this very real possibility ("Sky is falling" "You are nobody" "You are an idiot" school of thought)

Others like Marc De are pushing the frontier with innovations that may be a good jumping point for a post rebill world.

Things will continue, its just going to look very different.


Also there's many ways to kill something other than outright banning the practice.........

Interesting that it took so long for someone to start this thread the way the jungle drums have been banging away.

Of course it won't be the end if/when it happens. It'll simply mean a lot of changes - those who are smart will get richer, those who are dumb and/or won't realise time are a changing will slowly start to vanish.

Aactually there is a good one, though you need to do about 90% of the development/coding on your end =)

They won't mind if porn or whatever passes through though....they don't monitor it, you just use their gateway and pay your fees.

Thats like asking " what would happen if all the women on earth died tomorrow "

You cant really know how it will affect you until its done. )

First I think its alot more than 10-50 million, I think we are told this so we feel powerless. Think about it , the adult industry is a 4 billion dollar industry, two things caused the explosion first was the vcr and then the internet.
I highly doubt out of that 4 billion dollar pie, online is a very small piece. Larry Flynt said his sites do 1.3 million a month in the xbiz interview, Danny Ash does 7 million together they do over 22 million.
You also have to figure there are at least 50,000 adult websites the big and the small .If they earned a avg of 6000 a year thats 180 million dollars and I am being very conservative but since we are so splintered we are weak. Adult webmasters have their little kingdoms and they rule with ego and cheapness. Good example IMPA imagine if everyone who made a dollar off adult donated $100 to them ,the amount of money would be huge they would have to fight the good fight.

Also mainstream uses recurring alot and they make it very hard to cancel a example the only way to cancel a audible account is to call I sat on hold for 45 mins to cancel.

interesting.. I guess they could pick on adult related companies again... but from what I see now:

my gym auto rebills
my auto insurance auto rebills
my life insurance auto rebills
my direct tv auto rebills.. (NFL package auto rebills)
my aol auto rebills
my toll tag auto rebills
my wifes cell phone auto rebills

basically lots of business models work on auto rebill

so for it to go away.. would hurt our entire economy as a whole..

not just porn sites :2 cents:

we all hope it does not go away, but always have a back up plan.

We have your check needs covered, read more below


http://www.probilling.com/documents/...ol1/index.html

thats pretty much what i was trying say driven. Rebilling is too mainstream for them to ban it out right. Will they step up restirictions in adult websites, possibly, and probably. I think the route they are taking is stopping people from charging back for things that they know they are going to be charged for. They have already shown steps in that direction last october. And i get the feeling that visa does alot more in sales than 1 billion a year, but i dont know for sure.

To those that posted great info/analysis, thank you!

The future is out there and no amount of denial will prevent it from happening.

The biz will survive. There's tons of creative people in this biz. Who else can pimp the Net better than adult webmasters?

I think people are more ready for this eventuality than you guys give them credit for. I say "BRING IT ON!"

WTF? :helpme

Which part don't you understand? I thought it was pretty clear.

Dude you are on crack. A 15% chargeback rate and you would be TMF'd INSTANTLY...

My guess is that someone decent sized is terminated in the next 60 days, both for their ratios and as a warning to everyone else in the business.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see the end of 5967 billing before the end of the year.

I'm not betting it will happen, just saying I wouldn't be at all surprised if it did.

The way it may come about will be surprising perhaps, but anything is possible.

Well said, KK!

I understand that you can have the impression that some companies are alread working on new payment solutions, but that is one thing, but wishing that Visa stopps rebills soon, is something which I completely cannot understand.

Wishing is completely different from just pointing out an inevitability.