The problem with auditing PPS sponsors (re PIBCash)

[$5 submissions]

The problem with auditing sponsors so webmasters can gain some sort of peace of mind with their programs is the inherent conflict of interest involved. If an auditing company asks for money FROM the sponsor companies, who is their REAL boss? Who are they trying to please? This conflict of interest is similar to Insurance arbitrators. My girlfriend's father is an attorney and he tells me that arbitrators FEAR judging for the plaintiffs because if they do that too often, then Insurance companies won't hire them anymore. California arbitrators are selected by BOTH insurance companies and plaintiffs' counsels.

Same thing with sponsor auditing companies. If they take payments from sponsors, then EVEN IF there is no OVERT pressure, there would be subjective pressure to not piss off the hand that tosses you bread.

Clicktruth.com, and other companies, while they are good ideas and are well intended, definitely may want to look into either being self funded or nonprofit organizations to gain more credibility with the webmaster community.

What we should look to is an online adult version of the Better Business Bureau with no identifiable or implied loyalties to anybody. If anything, it's the consumer that should pitch in to pay for the audit through some sort of industrywide fee system.
One proposal would be that for every PPS sale, some pennies are paid to a general pool which certified auditors are paid from.

[msg]

and what about liability? What if they say the sponsor is cheating when infact they aren't? If the sponsor loses any business due to false information I would expect one hell of a lawsuit

[$5 submissions]

Originally posted by msg
and what about liability? What if they say the sponsor is cheating when infact they aren't? If the sponsor loses any business due to false information I would expect one hell of a lawsuit

Again, this adds pressure to the auditing company, in addition to being on the payroll of the sponsor.

If the auditing company was following 1) precise audit methodologies with 2) publicly available report records and 3) was NOT funded directly by the sponsors, then online auditing may have a shot.

The drawback with the current model is it may just become another TheStatistician.com

Statistician made a big splash a while back but somewhat faded because they were perceived as being tied to companies that buy ad space on their site. In the audit or site review game, perception of bias is always around the corner and every step must be taken to kill it.

[RogerV]

Originally posted by $5 submissions


Again, this adds pressure to the auditing company, in addition to being on the payroll of the sponsor.

If the auditing company was following 1) precise audit methodologies with 2) publicly available report records and 3) was NOT funded directly by the sponsors, then online auditing may have a shot.

The drawback with the current model is it may just become another TheStatistician.com

Statistician made a big splash a while back but somewhat faded because they were perceived as being tied to companies that buy ad space on their site. In the audit or site review game, perception of bias is always around the corner and every step must be taken to kill it.

Who can you really trust? Meet the Companies face to face and see who pays you out more.

One sponsor might work better for another it's not always shaving.

I personally think webmasters should work with the sponsors of there choice one on one to accomplish great conversions since the sponsor knows what works best for there sites etc.

I personally want to see webmasters converting great to earn more business which makes the patnership flourish

[rastakit]

Originally posted by $5 submissions


Again, this adds pressure to the auditing company, in addition to being on the payroll of the sponsor.

If the auditing company was following 1) precise audit methodologies with 2) publicly available report records and 3) was NOT funded directly by the sponsors, then online auditing may have a shot.

The drawback with the current model is it may just become another TheStatistician.com

Statistician made a big splash a while back but somewhat faded because they were perceived as being tied to companies that buy ad space on their site. In the audit or site review game, perception of bias is always around the corner and every step must be taken to kill it.

$5...I appreciate your thoughts, and would love to chat more with you on this. We have taken every measure we could think of to not bias ourselves in our reporting.

(1) We do not touch any of the traffic or payouts (i.e. commission)
(2) We perform the same audit to everyone, and we're happy to make that public. The most important feature is the random, blind tests with live traffic which will show on our site as we progress.
(3) We charge a flat fee for every sponsor based on the number of affiliates who choose to promote them and this fee begins at $25/month so we are not beholden to any one sponsor. And, if you think about it, with multiple sponsor programs...we'd have to know exactly how each shaved (to the join detail) and lie for every one as a group, as any discrepancy would be obvious.
(4) Any affiliate can run their own traffic tests, you don't just need to "take our word for it" that a program is clean. We have built a tool to re-direct your own traffic (if you want, it is not required). We can even work with you without the re-director (hit me up if interested).
(5) We have also gotten approval to get the stats directly from the processor. Although, in my opinion, the source of the stats is not the problem if you have random, audit capability.

As I stated above however, we are VERY interested in feedback. The Porn Posse is a third-party consulting firm, we do not run paysites. We handle ACH processing for some of the largest Third-party processors in the business and we frequently organize Marketing efforts for programs such as Flashcash and others. But, above all, we're here to bring sound business practices to the space, make money, and help others make money. To do this, it is in our very best interest to treat everyone honestly.

As always, I can be reached at 173121828 and will be in Vegas with bell's on...:-)

Edge

[- AFN -]

conflict of interest is a bitch. With that said, most webmasters don't really care until a sponsor gets flat out busted. Until then, its business as usual.

[bret]

Originally posted by rastakit


$5...I appreciate your thoughts, and would love to chat more with you on this. We have taken every measure we could think of to not bias ourselves in our reporting.

(1) We do not touch any of the traffic or payouts (i.e. commission)
(2) We perform the same audit to everyone, and we're happy to make that public. The most important feature is the random, blind tests with live traffic which will show on our site as we progress.
(3) We charge a flat fee for every sponsor based on the number of affiliates who choose to promote them and this fee begins at $25/month so we are not beholden to any one sponsor. And, if you think about it, with multiple sponsor programs...we'd have to know exactly how each shaved (to the join detail) and lie for every one as a group, as any discrepancy would be obvious.
(4) Any affiliate can run their own traffic tests, you don't just need to "take our word for it" that a program is clean. We have built a tool to re-direct your own traffic (if you want, it is not required). We can even work with you without the re-director (hit me up if interested).
(5) We have also gotten approval to get the stats directly from the processor. Although, in my opinion, the source of the stats is not the problem if you have random, audit capability.

As I stated above however, we are VERY interested in feedback. The Porn Posse is a third-party consulting firm, we do not run paysites. We handle ACH processing for some of the largest Third-party processors in the business and we frequently organize Marketing efforts for programs such as Flashcash and others. But, above all, we're here to bring sound business practices to the space, make money, and help others make money. To do this, it is in our very best interest to treat everyone honestly.

As always, I can be reached at 173121828 and will be in Vegas with bell's on...:-)

Edge

how does this solve anything??


you could run a million tests a million times a day and get trillion different results. what does that prove?? jack shit.

if a sponsor is going to shave, they are going to do it at the join level, not the raw/unique hit level... if they shave hits the deserve to get caught. shaving joins can not [currently] be proven unless you specifically sign up for the program under code X and code X does not get credit for the join. but even that can be explained away by "malfunctioning hardware/software", "bugs", "cookie problems", etc.

[bret]

oh... and how does click truth solve anything either? having the sponsor send your servers "transactional data"??? wow. thats like sending in a narc wearing a police badge and a standard issue.

all they have to do is omit/alter the "transactional data" when they shave and you are none the wiser.

[Adult Site Traffic]

Originally posted by msg
and what about liability? What if they say the sponsor is cheating when infact they aren't? If the sponsor loses any business due to false information I would expect one hell of a lawsuit

Yes, but .. They would have collected data to back it up. At least, they better if their service is supposed to ensure accuracy.

[- AFN -]

Originally posted by bret
oh... and how does click truth solve anything either? having the sponsor send your servers "transactional data"??? wow. thats like sending in a narc wearing a police badge and a standard issue.

all they have to do is omit/alter the "transactional data" when they shave and you are none the wiser.

There's really no "Double blind" type audit where SUBCONCIOUS bias and conflict of interest are done away with...using the current model.

Good first try though but it SEEMS its more "damage control" rather than REAL reform.

[bret]

Originally posted by - AFN -
... SEEMS its more "damage control" rather than REAL reform.

bin-FUCKING-go

[MetaformX]

you cant trust pornographers...they are dirty

[EscortBiz]

For a few bucks some programmers will not only tell you the truth but provide proof (not a screenshot but rather a video clip of how the stats system works)

Figure it out

[- AFN -]

Originally posted by MetaformX
you cant trust pornographers...they are dirty

Nice sig (ironic smirk)

[- AFN -]

Originally posted by EscortBiz
For a few bucks some programmers will not only tell you the truth but provide proof (not a screenshot but rather a video clip of how the stats system works)

Figure it out

Video clips can be edited

[JoeS]

I agree with Roger. Work with sponsors directly and get to know them and if they are worth a dam they will work with you to help you succeed. As far as shaving goes what does it really matter. What matters most is who sends you the biggest paycheck at the end of the day. Who consistantly makes you the most money for the clicks you send out. Thats the only stat that matters. Now if someones bragging about shaving and fucking over people I dont care how much they could make me I wont do business with them. So for now the best auditing you can do is to audit your bank deposit slips and see who makes you the most over the long haul.

Joe

[- AFN -]

What does it matter? Its called PRINCIPLE... some people have it.

So you're saying people should just accept the fact that they will be/or are being shaved?

Originally posted by FileSafeGuard-Joe
As far as shaving goes what does it really matter.

[EscortBiz]

Originally posted by - AFN -


Video clips can be edited

One day you might understand how many here get real information.

[- AFN -]

Originally posted by EscortBiz


One day you might understand how many here get real information.

Yeah, okay. What's wrong with DEMANDING more accountability from sponsors?

[Rich]

AFN, why are you bumping a bunch of old threads? Trying to get banned?

[JoeS]

Originally posted by - AFN -
What does it matter? Its called PRINCIPLE... some people have it.

So you're saying people should just accept the fact that they will be/or are being shaved?

Hello AFN,

Yes sadly enough in this industry I think if you dont just accept the fact that you are likley being shaved you are living in denile.
Its the dirty little secret we're not supposed to talk about. Like I said if I have proof or hear a sponsor bragging of shaving as some have done to my face believe or not, I wont do business with them even if they could make me a profit.

So I think our time is better spent auditing our own business practices to maximize our sales and finding a few people/sponsors we do well with and you believe demonstrate some degree of integrity.

This is a hard industry to be in if you focus too much on your principles and hoping everyone is honest. Sure be principled in your dealings but dont expect everyone else to or you will be disapointed. Money makes people funny and wherever there is a concentration of it you find greedy people looking to take advantage of others.

Joe

[- AFN -]

Originally posted by Rich
AFN, why are you bumping a bunch of old threads? Trying to get banned?

Just looking for interesting thread discussions. Not trying to get banned.

[- AFN -]

So basically it all boils down to settling for the lesser of evils...or at least the less publicized of evils....

Is this the only route around this problem?

Originally posted by FileSafeGuard-Joe


Hello AFN,

Yes sadly enough in this industry I think if you dont just accept the fact that you are likley being shaved you are living in denile.
Its the dirty little secret we're not supposed to talk about. Like I said if I have proof or hear a sponsor bragging of shaving as some have done to my face believe or not, I wont do business with them even if they could make me a profit.

So I think our time is better spent auditing our own business practices to maximize our sales and finding a few people/sponsors we do well with and you believe demonstrate some degree of integrity.

This is a hard industry to be in if you focus too much on your principles and hoping everyone is honest. Sure be principled in your dealings but dont expect everyone else to or you will be disapointed. Money makes people funny and wherever there is a concentration of it you find greedy people looking to take advantage of others.

Joe

[JoeS]

Well you could start your own paysites.


Joe

[- AFN -]

Originally posted by FileSafeGuard-Joe
Well you could start your own paysites.


Joe

True. you raised some good points though. Unless there's some sort of objective third party system, there's really no way around the trust problem. Its all a leap of a faith.

[JoeS]

Thanks. Not to hijak the thread but what does AdultWebware do? (your sig)..


Joe

[- AFN -]

Originally posted by FileSafeGuard-Joe
Thanks. Not to hijak the thread but what does AdultWebware do? (your sig)..


Joe

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