Is PIBCash an Isolated Case? - GoFuckYourself.com

$5 submissions · 12-10-2003, 12:34 AM

Would we be seeing more cases like PIBCash where programs are accused of shaving b/c smaller to mid-sized PPS programs may want to compensate for pressures imposed by the new VISA regs? Or would these pressures just separate the wheat from the chaff?

ElvisManson · 12-10-2003, 12:37 AM

I know affiliate programs that are "reverse shaving" to keep their WM's happy...they are adding joins to accounts to make sure that valued WM's stick around.anyone shaving these days won't be around much longer.

Veterans Day · 12-10-2003, 12:39 AM

WHY WERE THE STATS LOCKED? its really a simple question noone has answered, I signed up to a program and got a sign up with no traffic, I questioned it and was told, "ya dude its real" WTF

Trafficbrokercom · 12-10-2003, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Veterans Day
WHY WERE THE STATS LOCKED? its really a simple question noone has answered, I signed up to a program and got a sign up with no traffic, I questioned it and was told, "ya dude its real" WTF

this can happen very quick.

dumb webmasters who have typos in their affiliate code etc.

$5 submissions · 12-10-2003, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisManson
I know affiliate programs that are "reverse shaving" to keep their WM's happy...they are adding joins to accounts to make sure that valued WM's stick around.anyone shaving these days won't be around much longer.

What impact, if any, does this practice have on minimizing the effects that affiliate fraud have re chargeback ratios for the sponsor? Ie., so happy so they don't cheat?

I don't support nor wish to appear to condone shaving... however, I won't be surprised that some PPS sponsors might feel that this practice is a "justifiable" response to affiliate cheating. I spoke awhile back with the owner of a mid sized and growing affiliate PPS program and he said that at least 10% of payouts in every payout period is paid out to cheaters. Even with his extra vigilance, he feels that he's not catching them all.

Regardless... this doesn't excuse punishing all (via shaving) for the sins of a few.

Spunky · 12-10-2003, 12:47 AM

Hopefully ..but with the hundreds out there are we really sure?.This was by a disgruntled ex employee...are there more just biting their tounge ?

ElvisManson · 12-10-2003, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by $5 submissions

What impact, if any, does this practice have on minimizing the effects that affiliate fraud have re chargeback ratios for the sponsor? Ie., so happy so they don't cheat?

I don't support nor wish to appear to condone shaving... however, I won't be surprised that some PPS sponsors might feel that this practice is a "justifiable" response to affiliate cheating. I spoke awhile back with the owner of a mid sized and growing affiliate PPS program and he said that at least 10% of payouts in every payout period is paid out to cheaters. Even with his extra vigilance, he feels that he's not catching them all.

Regardless... this doesn't excuse punishing all (via shaving) for the sins of a few.

It has nothing to do with minimizing the efects of WM fraud..taking a little from all WM's to make up for the lack of proper fraud control you have is no justfication....it is bad business practice.

We pay many 100 of thousand of dollar every week to WM's and I would be very suprised if 1% is paid to WM's for fraudulent trans.

Mind you we probably devote more resources to preventing WM fraud than most.

twistyneck · 12-10-2003, 12:52 AM

My guess is that virtually every program shaves in one way or another. Either they take the sales right out of your stats or they steal your traffic or they set your rebills to 3 months or whatever. I don't trust any of them.

ElvisManson · 12-10-2003, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by twistyneck
My guess is that virtually every program shaves in one way or another. Either they take the sales right out of your stats or they steal your traffic or they set your rebills to 3 months or whatever. I don't trust any of them.

open your own paysites that are specifically devoted to your traffic and then you don't have to worry about it.

$5 submissions · 12-10-2003, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spunky1
Hopefully ..but with the hundreds out there are we really sure?.This was by a disgruntled ex employee...are there more just biting their tounge ?

Good point, Spunky. Maybe the ultimate lesson in the PIBCash fiasco is that sponsors should at least keep their employees happy enough not to spill the beans.

twistyneck · 12-10-2003, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisManson

open your own paysites that are specifically devoted to your traffic and then you don't have to worry about it.

That's what I do. I have a few sponsor links out there from the old days but those are coming down one at a time.

$5 submissions · 12-10-2003, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by twistyneck
My guess is that virtually every program shaves in one way or another. Either they take the sales right out of your stats or they steal your traffic or they set your rebills to 3 months or whatever. I don't trust any of them.

One possible scenario...explained by an invite only PPS employee I spoke with awhile back is that some scripts are kinda spotty in picking up any text after the ? in the REF ID. I wonder if this is intentional or just the nature of browsers and the Net. Obviously, he argued for the latter.

Regardless, this does raise the scenario of a "faultless" shaving mechanism... "Sorry, buddy, but its not our fault our script didn't pick up your ref... how would you know anyway? can you prove it through technical means?"

Arousal Design · 12-10-2003, 01:00 AM

I'll be honest. I've always been under the impression that all sponsors shave in some way shape or form. For as long as i've been in this business, shaving has always been a term people throw around so someone must be doing it =)

I think its kind of like steroids in sports, i think we'd all be shocked to know the truth.

twistyneck · 12-10-2003, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by $5 submissions

One possible scenario...explained by an invite only PPS employee I spoke with awhile back is that some scripts are kinda spotty in picking up any text after the ? in the REF ID. I wonder if this is intentional or just the nature of browsers and the Net. Obviously, he argued for the latter.

Regardless, this does raise the scenario of a "faultless" shaving mechanism... "Sorry, buddy, but its not our fault our script didn't pick up your ref... how would you know anyway? can you prove it through technical means?"

Yeah, this happens, not sure what can be done about it. All I know is that somebody is getting paid and it isn't the affiliate. This is one more reason to run your own paysites.

ElvisManson · 12-10-2003, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by twistyneck

That's what I do. I have a few sponsor links out there from the old days but those are coming down one at a time.

But send me your exit traffic.

$30 flat on a $1 per month trial join.

Tons of niches and if you have enough traffic we'll build sites for it.

TrafficBuyers · 12-10-2003, 01:02 AM

Anyone supporting PIB is being very naive. It is a well known fact that Rodney Connor is a Thief. He Fucked his Partner Killah out over $250,000 (That?s not a misprint by the way) He locked him out of all the admin areas and took total control of their PIB board. He was able to not only steal all the webmaster programs, scripts, servers, webmaster board and lastly but certainly not least the MONEY this was due to the fact that Rodney was the person in the States that controlled the bank accounts. With the money he stole he funded PIBcash. Even when he had more than enough money to pay for anything he needed to get his shit going he fucks a well known designer Bruno from Dickman?s Designs.

This is a quote from him:
?Well, first of all, I hate to bring that to public, but since I made a terrible mistake and had no contracts with this crook, I will post what happened. It sucks that legally I won?t be able to sue him and get my money.

We designed many paysites for him. He paid only one. He owes Dickmans Design more than U$24.000,00. But that?s all good, the universe takes care of balancing things up.

Its time for all of us to focus on working hard and hopefully RConn will be out of this industry soon.

Take care and kind regards,
Bruno Dickman

Then he started fucking people with his program ExitKing.com this is Rodney?s Traffic Brokering program. He had to start a new Traffic buying program because Killah was lucky enough to have not giving Rodney control of that Sellyourexit and Xitcash.
If you read the boards you can find all the people that he FUCKED with his ExitKing.com.

I am not sure of this URL will show up but it will explain some more of the things Rodney has done and the people he has FUCKED.
http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/s...ah&pagenumber=6

If people keep dealing with him and continue getting fucked they basically deserve it. It?s all out in the open now and it?s not just a couple of people that might have it in for him the proof is all over just up to you to open your eyes.

$5 submissions · 12-10-2003, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TrafficBuyers
Anyone supporting PIB is being very naive.

Uhm...if you read the posts before you, you'd realize that NO ONE in this board is supporting PIB and their alleged practices.

Smokey The Bear · 12-10-2003, 02:18 AM

Isolated in that they got caught

You would be suprised at how many gas stations have the same sort of skim software on gas pumps. The manager buys the software and standalone for like 5k, secretly installs it and just steals a penny or 2 off each gallon. Makes himself a mint.

johnbosh · 12-10-2003, 03:40 AM

pib is exit

Trax · 12-10-2003, 03:52 AM

yes
they are past already

- AFN - · 12-10-2003, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by *Smokey The Bear*
Isolated in that they got caught

You would be suprised at how many gas stations have the same sort of skim software on gas pumps. The manager buys the software and standalone for like 5k, secretly installs it and just steals a penny or 2 off each gallon. Makes himself a mint.

Yeah, that's a big problem here in So Cal. Those Russian gas station managers....

Paul Markham · 12-10-2003, 03:59 AM

There seems to me only one way to decide who to drive traffic to. The guys that pay you the most for the work, money and effort you put in.

If one guy is shaving yet converting a dream, this could be because he's putting a lot of resorces and money into the site.

I know it sucks and it would be nice if everyone was honest, but an honest crap site does not pay the bills. Does anyone here know how well PIB actually paid for the effort put in?

However if what TrafficBuyers said is true, I would not be with anyone who acts like that. I know of an ex employee of PIB who got screwed out of their wages when they were fired and I do not think it's a unique case.

Theo · 12-10-2003, 04:01 AM

im pasting this a bit altered from another board i posted:

i'm all in good faith. I believe I'm in position to analyze the setup,marketing skills and billing model of every PPS sponsor I'm using and I pretty much avoid those potential shavers.

But why I will never accept a shaving sponsor unlike some others that claim as long as you make the most money with it shaving is ok?

Because running a PPS program is a very hard task, specially if you want to compete in payouts with the rest major sponsors. Shaving gave the opportunity to pretty much everyone with a medium capital to enter the PPS model and this is EXTREMELY BAD. These PPS owners DO NOT do whatever possible to maximize their profits like the rest because if they'll experience bad results they'll just adapt the shaving percentage. I can assure you NOT ALL pay per signup sponsors shave. I have analyzed the models of the PPS sposnors I'm using and I can justify their payouts. I can't say the same for PIBcash and this is the no1 reason I never send 'em any traffic. If you can't payout me what you promise, DON'T promise it as all. I can accept lower payouts and I'm sending traffic to sponsors paying $20-30/trial as well.

I expect to be treated the same way I treat others. All these years I haven't stole a single dollar from anyone, I will never will and I demand the same. You can do business by being clear and you can do pretty good. I can settle with thousands dollars less, but money made in an honest way. I'm sure this goes for the average webmaster as well.

food for thought

- AFN - · 12-10-2003, 04:13 AM

Yeah okay.

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
im pasting this a bit altered from another board i posted:

i'm all in good faith. I believe I'm in position to analyze the setup,marketing skills and billing model of every PPS sponsor I'm using and I pretty much avoid those potential shavers.

But why I will never accept a shaving sponsor unlike some others that claim as long as you make the most money with it shaving is ok?

Because running a PPS program is a very hard task, specially if you want to compete in payouts with the rest major sponsors. Shaving gave the opportunity to pretty much everyone with a medium capital to enter the PPS model and this is EXTREMELY BAD. These PPS owners DO NOT do whatever possible to maximize their profits like the rest because if they'll experience bad results they'll just adapt the shaving percentage. I can assure you NOT ALL pay per signup sponsors shave. I have analyzed the models of the PPS sposnors I'm using and I can justify their payouts. I can't say the same for PIBcash and this is the no1 reason I never send 'em any traffic. If you can't payout me what you promise, DON'T promise it as all. I can accept lower payouts and I'm sending traffic to sponsors paying $20-30/trial as well.

I expect to be treated the same way I treat others. All these years I haven't stole a single dollar from anyone, I will never will and I demand the same. You can do business by being clear and you can do pretty good. I can settle with thousands dollars less, but money made in an honest way. I'm sure this goes for the average webmaster as well.

food for thought

Theo · 12-10-2003, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by - AFN -
Yeah okay.

which part you dispute?

- AFN - · 12-10-2003, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel

which part you dispute?

just another sanctimonious guy trying to say that people can trust him.....

Theo · 12-10-2003, 04:23 AM

trust me on what?

Theo · 12-10-2003, 04:25 AM

anyway,whatever, you seem to know everything. I'm not seeking your trust, so no worries.

- AFN - · 12-10-2003, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
trust me on what?

not you, the guy in the article...

Theo · 12-10-2003, 04:26 AM

i wrote that

Theo · 12-10-2003, 04:27 AM

im cross-posting on boards to increase my post count

- AFN - · 12-10-2003, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
im cross-posting on boards to increase my post count

hehehe cool

reynold · 12-12-2003, 07:14 PM

Good points, soul and $5. Cheating programs WILL be found out. The truth always outs. Sooner or later.

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
im pasting this a bit altered from another board i posted:

i'm all in good faith. I believe I'm in position to analyze the setup,marketing skills and billing model of every PPS sponsor I'm using and I pretty much avoid those potential shavers.

But why I will never accept a shaving sponsor unlike some others that claim as long as you make the most money with it shaving is ok?

Because running a PPS program is a very hard task, specially if you want to compete in payouts with the rest major sponsors. Shaving gave the opportunity to pretty much everyone with a medium capital to enter the PPS model and this is EXTREMELY BAD. These PPS owners DO NOT do whatever possible to maximize their profits like the rest because if they'll experience bad results they'll just adapt the shaving percentage. I can assure you NOT ALL pay per signup sponsors shave. I have analyzed the models of the PPS sposnors I'm using and I can justify their payouts. I can't say the same for PIBcash and this is the no1 reason I never send 'em any traffic. If you can't payout me what you promise, DON'T promise it as all. I can accept lower payouts and I'm sending traffic to sponsors paying $20-30/trial as well.

I expect to be treated the same way I treat others. All these years I haven't stole a single dollar from anyone, I will never will and I demand the same. You can do business by being clear and you can do pretty good. I can settle with thousands dollars less, but money made in an honest way. I'm sure this goes for the average webmaster as well.

food for thought

Nysus · 12-12-2003, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisManson
I know affiliate programs that are "reverse shaving" to keep their WM's happy...they are adding joins to accounts to make sure that valued WM's stick around.anyone shaving these days won't be around much longer.

I think that's only true for well-known or large affiliates who send large amounts of traffic.. so if XXX from XXX gets 1:100 conversions, then he/she will refer webmasters.. Meh anyways.

Cheers,
Matt

makefuckingmoney · 12-12-2003, 08:08 PM

Pressure isnt on mid sized programs to keep their visa stuff in line..

ask around..youll find out whos got trouble!

Shaving has to do with Greed..not with Visa

Jive · 12-13-2003, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisManson

open your own paysites that are specifically devoted to your traffic and then you don't have to worry about it.

know finally your making some sense for a change..

most sponsor's are dipping to much only to hurt themselves in the end? loose there good reputations and are actually forcing the webmaster's to open there own programs;
playing with fire only to get burned or listen to broken promises?

'my opinion'

- AFN - · 12-13-2003, 10:25 PM

Since rumors are appreciated on this board...spill the beans on the ones that are in "trouble."

Quote:

Originally posted by makefuckingmoney
Pressure isnt on mid sized programs to keep their visa stuff in line..

ask around..youll find out whos got trouble!

Shaving has to do with Greed..not with Visa

TheJimmy · 12-13-2003, 10:30 PM

not an isolated case...

not even close :/

sad but true...

- AFN - · 12-13-2003, 10:50 PM

Any info to back up this sentiment? Maybe a rumor?

Quote:

Originally posted by TheJimmy
not an isolated case...

not even close :/

sad but true...

reynold · 12-14-2003, 12:45 AM

I hope that we don't see too many programs biting the dust around march - april when the Visa fines start biting. It only takes the death of a few to see payouts crash

12-10-2003, 12:34 AM	#1
$5 submissions I help you SUCCEED Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Pearl of the Orient Seas Posts: 32,195	Is PIBCash an Isolated Case? Would we be seeing more cases like PIBCash where programs are accused of shaving b/c smaller to mid-sized PPS programs may want to compensate for pressures imposed by the new VISA regs? Or would these pressures just separate the wheat from the chaff? __________________ Need a NON-ADULT income stream? We build your YOUTUBE CHANNEL for only $20 per video! For Hire: $3/hour or $400 per month Marketing Specialist Virtual Assistants

12-10-2003, 12:39 AM	#3
Veterans Day Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Windy City Posts: 8,403	WHY WERE THE STATS LOCKED? its really a simple question noone has answered, I signed up to a program and got a sign up with no traffic, I questioned it and was told, "ya dude its real" WTF __________________ Build a Massive Traffic Network, Hands FREE, Totally Automated

12-10-2003, 12:47 AM	#6
Spunky I need a beer Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ♠ Toiletville ♠ Posts: 133,944	Hopefully ..but with the hundreds out there are we really sure?.This was by a disgruntled ex employee...are there more just biting their tounge ? __________________ *YOUR INFORMATION HERE*

12-10-2003, 01:00 AM	#13
Arousal Design Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Connecticut. Posts: 1,358	I'll be honest. I've always been under the impression that all sponsors shave in some way shape or form. For as long as i've been in this business, shaving has always been a term people throw around so someone must be doing it =) I think its kind of like steroids in sports, i think we'd all be shocked to know the truth. __________________ Make Major Bank With Major Personality - NaughtyBank! Featuring NaughtyAllie and NaughtyJulie!

12-10-2003, 03:59 AM	#22
Paul Markham Too old to care Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: On the sofa, watching TV or doing my jigsaws. Posts: 52,943	There seems to me only one way to decide who to drive traffic to. The guys that pay you the most for the work, money and effort you put in. If one guy is shaving yet converting a dream, this could be because he's putting a lot of resorces and money into the site. I know it sucks and it would be nice if everyone was honest, but an honest crap site does not pay the bills. Does anyone here know how well PIB actually paid for the effort put in? However if what TrafficBuyers said is true, I would not be with anyone who acts like that. I know of an ex employee of PIB who got screwed out of their wages when they were fired and I do not think it's a unique case. __________________ Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500. PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

12-10-2003, 12:37 AM	#2
ElvisManson Looking California Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 5,476	I know affiliate programs that are "reverse shaving" to keep their WM's happy...they are adding joins to accounts to make sure that valued WM's stick around.anyone shaving these days won't be around much longer.

12-10-2003, 12:52 AM	#8
twistyneck So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hanging by the neck until dead. Posts: 4,660	My guess is that virtually every program shaves in one way or another. Either they take the sales right out of your stats or they steal your traffic or they set your rebills to 3 months or whatever. I don't trust any of them.

12-10-2003, 01:02 AM	#16
TrafficBuyers Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 67	Anyone supporting PIB is being very naive. It is a well known fact that Rodney Connor is a Thief. He Fucked his Partner Killah out over $250,000 (That?s not a misprint by the way) He locked him out of all the admin areas and took total control of their PIB board. He was able to not only steal all the webmaster programs, scripts, servers, webmaster board and lastly but certainly not least the MONEY this was due to the fact that Rodney was the person in the States that controlled the bank accounts. With the money he stole he funded PIBcash. Even when he had more than enough money to pay for anything he needed to get his shit going he fucks a well known designer Bruno from Dickman?s Designs. This is a quote from him: ?Well, first of all, I hate to bring that to public, but since I made a terrible mistake and had no contracts with this crook, I will post what happened. It sucks that legally I won?t be able to sue him and get my money. We designed many paysites for him. He paid only one. He owes Dickmans Design more than U$24.000,00. But that?s all good, the universe takes care of balancing things up. Its time for all of us to focus on working hard and hopefully RConn will be out of this industry soon. Take care and kind regards, Bruno Dickman Then he started fucking people with his program ExitKing.com this is Rodney?s Traffic Brokering program. He had to start a new Traffic buying program because Killah was lucky enough to have not giving Rodney control of that Sellyourexit and Xitcash. If you read the boards you can find all the people that he FUCKED with his ExitKing.com. I am not sure of this URL will show up but it will explain some more of the things Rodney has done and the people he has FUCKED. http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/s...ah&pagenumber=6 If people keep dealing with him and continue getting fucked they basically deserve it. It?s all out in the open now and it?s not just a couple of people that might have it in for him the proof is all over just up to you to open your eyes.

12-10-2003, 02:18 AM	#18
Smokey The Bear So Fucking Banned Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: South Of Heaven™ Posts: 3,880	Isolated in that they got caught You would be suprised at how many gas stations have the same sort of skim software on gas pumps. The manager buys the software and standalone for like 5k, secretly installs it and just steals a penny or 2 off each gallon. Makes himself a mint.

12-10-2003, 03:40 AM	#19
johnbosh Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Netherlands, Rotterdam Posts: 8,965	pib is exit

12-10-2003, 03:52 AM	#20
Trax [----------------------] Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 14,486	yes they are past already

12-10-2003, 04:01 AM	#23
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	im pasting this a bit altered from another board i posted: i'm all in good faith. I believe I'm in position to analyze the setup,marketing skills and billing model of every PPS sponsor I'm using and I pretty much avoid those potential shavers. But why I will never accept a shaving sponsor unlike some others that claim as long as you make the most money with it shaving is ok? Because running a PPS program is a very hard task, specially if you want to compete in payouts with the rest major sponsors. Shaving gave the opportunity to pretty much everyone with a medium capital to enter the PPS model and this is EXTREMELY BAD. These PPS owners DO NOT do whatever possible to maximize their profits like the rest because if they'll experience bad results they'll just adapt the shaving percentage. I can assure you NOT ALL pay per signup sponsors shave. I have analyzed the models of the PPS sposnors I'm using and I can justify their payouts. I can't say the same for PIBcash and this is the no1 reason I never send 'em any traffic. If you can't payout me what you promise, DON'T promise it as all. I can accept lower payouts and I'm sending traffic to sponsors paying $20-30/trial as well. I expect to be treated the same way I treat others. All these years I haven't stole a single dollar from anyone, I will never will and I demand the same. You can do business by being clear and you can do pretty good. I can settle with thousands dollars less, but money made in an honest way. I'm sure this goes for the average webmaster as well. food for thought

12-10-2003, 04:23 AM	#27
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	trust me on what?

12-10-2003, 04:25 AM	#28
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	anyway,whatever, you seem to know everything. I'm not seeking your trust, so no worries.

12-10-2003, 04:26 AM	#30
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	i wrote that

12-10-2003, 04:27 AM	#31
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	im cross-posting on boards to increase my post count

12-12-2003, 08:08 PM	#35
makefuckingmoney Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 3,277	Pressure isnt on mid sized programs to keep their visa stuff in line.. ask around..youll find out whos got trouble! Shaving has to do with Greed..not with Visa

12-13-2003, 10:30 PM	#38
TheJimmy ICQ- five seven 0 2 5 5 0 Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 10,747	not an isolated case... not even close :/ sad but true... __________________ Investor with 5m - 15m USD to invest. Do you have a site or network of sites earning 50k - 200k a month income? Email your contact and preliminary data to: domain.cashventures (at) gmail.com....Please...no tire kickers...serious offers and inquiries only.

12-14-2003, 12:45 AM	#40
reynold Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Global Traveler Posts: 51,271	I hope that we don't see too many programs biting the dust around march - april when the Visa fines start biting. It only takes the death of a few to see payouts crash