it just boggles my mind the double standard


its ok for us to SELL the porn
but fuck, the women that we feature in it are trash

????????????????




we cant be in business without them, so a modicum of respect is due i think

just a tad

I've been shooting gilrs for over a quarter of a century so got a bit of experience at it.

Dealing with different types all the time but the one motive that runs through them is the need to earn quick, easy and a lot of cash. Few will ever have the chance to earn in a week what we pay for a day, some will never earn it in a month.

You have students, unemployed, poorly paid girls normaly. You do not get PAs, doctors and executives turning up to pose nude. They don't need the money.

There is also other themes that run models, lack of trust and boyfriends. The problem with doing a deal, where she's not paid off, is in the future when the earnings drop or don't come up to what she expects she will blame you. She would never admit that she is not as good as she thought.

She may have earnt twice what she would of by taking the money on the day, but this will not be considered. All she will think, with or without the boyfriends prompting is that you are ripping her off. Never that she's not good enough.

The fact that she turned up at the studio knowing nothing about modelling. Without make up, clothing and walked out of the studio 6-7 hours later with a months wages in her hands, relieves my conscience.

Plus if the pictures bomb and I never sell them she does not give me back the money I lost.

Don't always agree with you but I do on this one. Respect the girls. But don't over estimate them.

I agree you'd have to be VERY selective.

We have a girl we have been shooting, on and off, for years. She's always reachable, always on time. Her content is always popular.

Even better, she has a normal job, and does modelling to supplement her income. In short - she is a stable professional.

If it ever came up, we'd consider creating a site for her. And that's the type of girl you'd want to deal with.

Beyond that, it's a very transient industry with a short professional life span.

The pics don't really last forever in the commercial sense. And the person who photographs them and manages to make and market a site does more then just snap a picture.

Just a thought though. Do this with bonuses and incentives. Why give up control just because you "feel" like it today.
Who owns the site if the model gets religion and decides to never model again?
Who owns it if you get sick and can't update or do the work for 3 months? Is she owed damages then?
What is she is the next Tawny Stone BUT retires after 2 months?

Partnerships are harder then marriages. I have partners and I don't hate them but I would be happier if I did not have them.

Traffic.
Affiliates.
Search Engine Rankings.
Marketing.

to name a few.

thats the key isnt it


i may be coming from a different perspective because im not simply dealing with them once for a shoot, then thats it.


i deal with them everyday, all day
you build trust


and then you get 3am calls from some girl who cant figure out how to upload an avatar to some forum

thats annoying, but again, it pays off

Wow....interesting thread.
I sure as hell don't miss the days when I had to deal with a webmaster. I call the shots...and I own the content.....no debate.
I think a lot of models would take control if they had the confidence and the know-how, but people who do know how to run a site generally don't share the information with the girls. They generally like to keep the models in the dark so the model will always have to depend on them.
I have had my site up since Nov 1998, but it wasn't until December 02 that I took it over 100%. That was the best move I ever made.
Fuck dealing with asshole webmasters who don't repect me....it's all on me now.
(I am not speaking to anyone in particular, but this subject can get me fired up sometimes)

But on the other hand, she is not managing the site, she is not the photographer, web designer, the person who brings in all the traffic, customer service and so on.

Perhaps in an 'amateurish' sense if there is a guy who takes cheezy pics, runs a cheap site and rips the girl off at the same time, its understandable.
But when a site give the model so much quality attention, trips to Hawaii, it comes out all the more well balanced and in favor of the model, than some attempt for her to do it by herself.

p.s. nice work on the Alexa site FTVGirls:thumbsup

You know what Hustler don't tell me how to pring and circulate a magazine.

This is the mentality you deal with from a girl who has the brains and drive to do something for herself. Can you imagine what it would be like with one who thinks she's special because she's pretty, can open her legs and pout?

Every one of these points is valid.

And I deal with each of them all the time.

BUT there is one thing that over comes most of these issues: knowlege. Most objections are simply an expression of "I don't understand this, please explain it to me". ESPECIALLY the boyfriend's objections. Too many off us HATE the boyfriend and show a real major flaw by not dealing CORRECTLY with the boyfriend. HE is not the asshole you think he is... he's just asking for information. If you give it to him and treat him with respect he is a non-issue. Actually, I LOVE the boyfriends. After they understand what's going on and feel comfortable with you (take a boyfriend out for a coffee break: just you and him) he becomes one of your BEST allies. Before you know if the girl is feeling REALLY DAMN GOOD about what she's doing. Why? Because her BOYFRIEND feels really damn good about the situation.

I face this ALL THE TIME. Just last night I faced it again.... the boyfriend of one of the models that has a site with me was very concerned about letting his girlfriend shoot one-on-one with a photographer I brought in from out of town. He had all these reasons why he didn't want it to happen. I talked privately with him, one one one, and addressed each issue. I also pointed out to him that his real issue was control, and that I completely understood (BEING UNDERSTANDING is a VERY vital ingredient when dealing with boyfriends). Once the guy was able to get all his concerns out in the open, without getting attitude from me, he was completely cool with it. He and I hung out at my office and talked about his girlfriend's site while she had her photos taken by a good friend of mine that I consider to be a superior photographer to most in this business.

It's all about HOW we deal with people. If we step up to the plate and be MORE PROFESSIONAL than others, by dealing with the HUMAN side of things, business goes so much better.

:2 cents:

And there is another problem with girls.

There is always another one standing behind her who will do the job for less money and less hassle. So why go with the highest priced one?

Because, as you said, there is ALWAYS another one. If you keep moving on to the next one, all you're doing is moving. :)

Donovan you are living in a different world to me. They complain she is doing the work, not getting paid enough and being shot by my wife!!

If the girl is poorly educated what are the chances of me sitting down and taliking it out with him? Like he's going to have a college degree. :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

I've had more problems from boyfriends over the years than I ever had with girls and what do you do when she changes boyfriends?

Yep.

The most we shoot a girl is about 10 times and then she has to be special. Most of them do 2-3 shoots maximum. The number of people in todays market who want that much work of a girls, and we shoot magazines and Net, are few and far between.

To me, that simply means they're asking for more information. I start showing them my bandwidth bill and related costs associated with running a website. I explain to them, in a very NICE way (NOT condescending), that these are expenses that I KNOW he/she doesn't want to deal with.

I don't really have this problem either, but that is because I took a lot of pyschology courses in college and sold cars in college. What do those two things have to do with boyfriends? They really help you learn how to read people and react to them. Seriously.

Now THAT is a problem. Because the new boyfriend NEVER wants his girlfriend to do ANYTHING that her ex-boyfriend was okay with. I still try reasoning with them. It works MOST of the time, but not always I'll have to admit....

Your sig, and the line underneath your nick name, say it all. I have nothing to add.

:BangBang:

Ok, smart ass... you don't even know me or the sites I run. Unlike other people in this biz, you don't affect me! I don't do biz with you, so I don't give a fuck what you think about me or my sites. Ok, Mr. High & Mighty!!

Lightspeed Cash = Single Girl Sites:thumbsup

I really like this part of Alexa's site:

Why pose naked for a website for the whole world to see?
Well its my very own website, its done nicely and tastefully, and I've never been shy about my figure or nudity. Especially since I've grown to learn more about how attractive my figure is to men. In a sense, the more I pose the more comfortable I have become with my body.


VERY cool.
:thumbsup

You're right... all I know is that your signature says you've been pimping 18 year olds for 4 years and that you're "Exploiting daddy's girl". Since I don't know you in person, those two things are all I can use to form an opinion of you AT THE MOMENT. If that's not what you're about, why would you put such a thing on a message board full of people that don't know you? All we know is what you show.

And if those two statements are jokes: I, for one, don't think either of them are funny.

EDIT TO ADD: I also don't think it's funny to call girls "sluts" or "cum guzzlers", etc. When I see reality sites that use such terms or degrade women by referring that they're "cock holsters" or some other term that implies girls are only to be used for male sexual satisfaction it makes my stomach turn.

no fucking way.. you must be kidding. I modeled and got one time payments and that was fine its a choice you make. Not every models as nice as me. Wait till they turn on you and the blackmail begins (um I dont like think I want my photo up anymore or your making more money you shouldnt I get it since Im on there?..). Or your star model gets a jealous bf /has a baby and doesnt want to honor this agreement. You must be trying to piss people off to get the longest thread.. either that or you are seriously trying to fuck the models.

Hmm, first of all I NEVER called any girl a "slut" or "cumguzzler", so that line doesn't affect me. I think you're making a general statement :2 cents:

Second, thank you for paying so much attention to me and my sig... I feel really special. Not that I have to defend how my profile reads but it's called freedom of speech/expression. Many people in the biz do it and that's the avenue I decided to take... which is my biz, no one elses!! BTW, I took my affiliate sig banner off because I've got thousands of affiliates, so I don't need anymore. Only 5-10% are worth a damn, the rest eat up bandwidth and devalue content.

unless you have someone like the next jenna jameson but even then shoot tons of custom exclusive photos for yourself and get rich one day like steve and earl.

There are ways to get around the problems you mention... very simple ways.

But since so many people posting make it obvious that they don't see how easy it is, I'm not going to point it out to them. :)

You're right, that line doesn't apply to you. It was indeed a general statement.

I did not say you do not have the "freedom of speech/expression" to say that... just commented that it is all we have to "get to know you" by.

KKK members have those same freedoms. And when they voice their views it gives me an insight into their system of belief.

Likewise, saying you're "pimping" women or "exploiting daddy's girl" gives me an insight into your thoughts on women.

I would agree on this one.

RocHard is right too - LS is putting a lot of effort into their teen sites and have established a business franchise that launches model after model into stardom. OF COURSE, part of the success is due to their models' sex appeal but the bigger part (immeasurably bigger in fact) is due to Steve and Rochard and the rest of the guys there.

I think this business model could work for a photographer like Donnie but not for a bigger, established business like LS. Imagine what would happen if Microsoft start splitting the profits with the programmers who write the code! Stock options - yes, but not a 50/50 deal by a long shot.

Donovan.... I've agreed with you on most of your posts, and this thread in general... but I'll weigh in on this one with the proviso that you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I definately understand it.

I think you have to be able to differentiate between fantasy and reality on the above, though. We are in the entertainment biz here. The whole 'bad girl' 'I'm a slut' is a pretty common fantasy to fulfill. Mona isn't offended by text calling her a 'cum guzzling slut' on her tour. We run a hardcore personal site, and always have, and don't sidestep the issue. :)

Where I end up having MAJOR issues with it is when the use (too often on these boards) is GENUINE. Especially where hypocrisy is involved - where the same webmasters who make a living off this stuff go 'what kind of whore would let someone come on their face on film?' as they jack off and collect their checks.

Sex CAN be beautiful... but that's not generally what we're selling. We're selling 'nasty' 'right up the ass' 'sluts that just gotta have it' blah, blah, blah.

Of course, this line can get fucked up. Personally, I think the sites where girls gag and puke on cock are disgusting. I tend to think the people who run those sites are NOT operating on a fantasy level, and really are degrading women. But that's just me. And I could be wrong.

People can chime in and say 'well, that's exploiting women' and I will go 'DUH!' The difference is if you're in a sexual groove and call Mona a slut, she'll pur. But if you look at her in disgust and say it - you'll probably end up getting kicked in the balls.

:)

I would tend to agree with most of what you say here. :)

Exactly! Even if she needs you in the beginning, once she figures out that it does make money, it's not much to buy her own digital camera & start up herself. Worse, she'll get a new boyfriend who is an amateur web designer & they'll demand you take the site down.

A friend of mine built a singel girl site out of bought content. The girl freaked when she found it & started emailing all of his link trades, telling them to send traffic to her "real" site instead. :mad:

Have you ever heard of this new concept: "Legal Documents"?

You pay them for doing the shoots, and then give them recurring for you doing all of the work on the site? I really hope not. If they did the shoots for free, or not for free with less of a % then that'd seem logical.

Cheers,
Matt

Donavan,

I think it is a great idea if you set it up like an affiliate program and teach the models to promote their site.

I do plan on showing them how to do that. :) I'm sure I'll get slammed now for teaching them too much.

No. No one ever heard of legal documents. :1orglaugh

Models that 'change their mind" after the fact is pretty much a YP not an MP.

The model in question had no leg to stand on and knew it but wasted her own precious time and energy attempting to leech my traffic because she had none of her own. The reports to the FBI she made didn't even help her. "Stealing her traffic" (as she accused) isn't illegal nor is annoying every webmaster I trade traffic with. Ingorance isn't a crime. It ought to be, but it isn't.

I think it's a nice idea to have a share with a model if you've found the right girl. It's not the norm and I have to add to Kcat's statement about the boyfriend. What do you do when the boyfriend (old, new or otherwise) tells your girl she can't model for you unless she gets a bigger cut. If you have a contract with her that says she has to model weekly, will you make her when she doesn't want to? When it's good business, it's good. When your model finds God, will you pull down your site of her? Or claims she was 'drunk' or on drugs at the time she signed your releases, will you be a business man or a nice guy.

How many sites of TiffanyAnn are there currently? Nice girl. :( New boyfriends, new webmasters... model gets an email from
a member who says he can make her more money than she's making now...

the potential hazards go on and on.

Hire them. Treat them nicely, shoot them while you can and go about your business. :2 cents:

Donovan, I dont' see a webmaster link for your sites. I'm looking for more teen single girl sites to promote if you are interested.

It always amazes me that some webmasters are so dismissive of profit share single girl sites. It's a lucrative sideline.

Excluding external costs (like marketing) the two most expensive costs are content and wages/time. Automation reduces wages tremendously, and these types of sites remove content costs. If the girl is actually willing to do some marketing (hence the percentage advantage), these are real money spinners. Wish I had more. Money for old rope. Good contract is key tho.

donnivan - listen to charley - he KNOWS what he's talking about and can articulate it much better than I can

you're the perfect example of what I'm trying to convey. Once a model with a brain waked up and realizes that she doesn't need anyone else - why use anyone else? You do MUCH better on your own.

:thumbsup

this industry is about grinding though girls.... playboy, and every other magazine, has a different playmate EVERY month.

It's been like this for ten years now, about 1 in a 1,000 make it to being a "name" for many reasons.

So the girl is getting a 2% revenue off a site dedicated to her and she is not seeing as you getting 98% off of her pictures. She then get's it into her head she wants more and you are in trouble.

Pay them, treat them nicely and let them go, if you want them back to work get them back, paying them a bonus on their site just clouds the issue for no other reason than to ease your conscience. I assume the girl is getting her full payment on the day she works and the extra payments are just a bonus.

Otherwise you will really be opening a bag of worms.

Try it and see how it works.

Agreed.

A partnership with someone that handles affiliates, traffic, accounting, processing, etc., etc. might be the smartest thing for a girl with a brain to do. Who says just because you are smart you want to deal with the daily b/s adult webmasters do.

Actually, it's not too bad...if you are organized, you will have the time for marketing, accounting, etc. I just make time for everything and prioritize.
It doesn't hurt that my site and affiliate program are completely automated...it's pretty easy for me to keep up with everything.
But yeah, help is always nice...not if you are getting reamed in the process, though...which is always what happened to me in the past.

honestly, what the hell can I do with 5GB of transfer and I'm very little compared to a lot of guys around here :1orglaugh

Nice.. I know several girls who have gone this route, and actually ran a site for a girl with this arrangement a couple years ago. I don't personally know any crack whores, though.

That wasn't very nice of you, Sleazy.

I agree, its good to give the girls recurring income.

:thumbsup

My car lasts long after I paid for it.

Should i send BMW a recurring check every month?

lol, models making recurring income from photoshoots. Bad idea, try it and find out why :glugglug