and clinton bombed iraq
so are you with him or against him? so bush is bad for invading iraq and not getting binladen but clinton is ok because atleast we were never attacked? now i see why you dont like our president. hes not a democrat fucknut

ugh... you guys don't read entire threads do you. I said earlier... Clinton wasn't perfect, he had his problems too.

but that's NOT what this thread is about.

Look, someone kills thousands of people and puts an entire nation into fear and panic and forces them into the closest thing to a police state there is without it actually being one.....

and the US decides to go after Saddam instead of Bin Laden?

Clinton went after this or that.. that's great. But he didn't have justice... vengence... he wasn't trying to seek atonement for a great injustice.

Bush is.

Well, supposed to be.... but he's not. He failed. And because he failed, he's trying to make himself look like a hero by going after someone else more attainable. But he failed at that too, didn't he? Where is Saddam? In this thread, it doesn't matter.... I don't care.

I just want to know why oh why has there never been a front page news story about the death or capture of Bin Laden??

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Forget the war, forget bin ladden... forget all the other crap and focus on this... Homeland Security. That is the demon that has to go. The fact that they can get away with what they want just by creating a letter claiming terrorist activities is total bullshit.

That is a scary fucking monster. Invasion of privacy... not good people. This is the man who put this in place. If you value your RIGHT TO PRIVACY, this man NEEDS to be removed from office.

What is to stop them from comming after anyone of us who post threads like this? All they have to do is claim treason or terror and they will be up your ass with a microscope so fast you will not know what hit you. and for what? Posting an opinion? That just ain't right.

Are you like 18 or something hah. Like i asked before, does something have to be on the front page news before your brain wakes up?? So in 75 years from now, if the front page news never reports his actual PROOF of "DEATH", are you still going to be sitting there PISSED off because you think he's still alive and people want justice?? When is your logic going to ever kick in?

Yeah, that too... I admit, you have to tighten the ship up when something goes wrong. You have to look at what went wrong and fix it so it doesn't happen again.

But I think the whole patriot act and everything is a bit over board.

Would he still be doing all this if he could actually catch Bin Laden and Saddam? Yeah, no doubt. But... why?

:1orglaugh

i wasnt interesting in read the entire thread because its the same old BS. do a search, all this has been discussed many times before. no one cares, and making these threads isnt going to change anyones mind. only reason this is big news now is the economy has turned around so the left needs to go back to the war as ammo against bush. nothing more. i honestly dont see a diffence between saddam or bin laden in a cell or a cave. they have no money and once they poke their heads out they're dead. who gives a shit. our goal is to destroy terrorists. i dont see binladen or saddam having the resources or ability they once had to do much of anything. :321GFY

Ok stupid.. get this part straight.... Bush wants to be a hero. Even a Bush supporter can see this. He wants to do away with terrorism and make the world safe. Good... great.

Also, he wants to be re-elected. What president doesn't?

Now... if you were going to get the United States to love you... and cherish you, and praise you... and re-elect you... don't you think it would be a good idea to have Bin Laden's rotting carcus on the front page of a newspaper?? Don't you think that maybe... just maybe... that the people would actually like to hear some news like that?

If Bush really wants the support of his people back (what ever he had anyway)... then why the hell would he hide Bin Laden's death? What the hell reason could he have?

I mean, wouldn't that send a good message to the other terrorists too?? You know, you mess with our country, we do this to you.

I can guarantee you... if they had killed him... everyone.. absolutely everyone would have heard about it by now.

I agree, I too think he would have still put it in place even without 9/11.

Why you ask, I can only guess, but I would have to say power. Imagine being ablbe to know anything about anyone you wanted... Shit, make a false claim of terrorism, dig up thier past, present and get all the skeletons in the closet... Knowlege is power, just imagine what you could do if you know certain things about your competition, or could totally fuck them up and ruin them just by claiming they were involved in terrorist acts.

Absolut power corrupts absolutly.

who got busted for posting an opinion? people bitch about bush not providing security, what about davis practially giving terrorists plane tickets? all you need is a DL. any attempt to move towards homeland security is blocked by the other side, in both cases. they dont care what the bill is about, they just care that they arent getting credit for it. you cant blame one man for everything wrong with the US no matter how much you want to

No, I agree... these types of threads are getting old. But this one is different... I don't care WHY the US is in Iraq... not right now.

I just want to know why American citizens are so willing to just give up on justice? Why stop trying for Bin Laden? If BigFish and his contacts in the CIA are right and he is dead... then why haven't the people of the United States asked for proof? Why can't someone give the friends and family the justice that they seek? or have they just stopped seeking justice?

Yeah, you're right. We should have designed bombs that would leave human beings intact upon impact. That way, we would have a chance to IDENTIFY the victims of the blast so we can FEED foxnews to satisfy gimps such as you. Better yet, we should have sent in our TROOPs into the caves to grab bin laden for the sake of displaying him on T.V. instead of just dropping bombs from a safe distance.

Wasn't there a kid in So Cal. that was arrested for having a web site that the govt. didn't like? I mean he did not even post the comments he was arrested for. I believe I read of a couple of others too...

All I am saying is that if you piss them off, say something they don't like, or what ever, they have the power to come down on you. Sorry, I would rather die free than to have to live limited for my safety. Sorry, I do not want every inch of my life examined because of something I say that might be misunderstood as a terrorist statement, especially if I did not mean it like that.

Key phrases is what they look for... who knows what they all are but say them, or write them and look out.

i doubt he's dead, and i do think they are looking for him. i dont know what you want... daily updates how they havent found him yet? the truth is, none of us know whats going on, so to say they arent trying and gave up is wrong. we simply dont know and probably will never know unless he shows up dead somewhere. who knows, maybe he'll show up around election time and lock bush into a victory with his head as a trophy.

Don't hold your breath. They'll call you a terrorist or a commie for not supporting him, but after that they're about out of things to say.

hadnt heard about any of that, ill look into it.

http://www.tma.co.jp/page_top/yokoku...chichiren.html

:1orglaugh

firstly, shut up with the fox news crap, I already told you.

secondly, you can identify a body after a bomb is dropped on them, especially when they're in a cave... if you can't get in to see someone that is dead, then you don't know that they are dead... and therefore, you proved that you are spouting crap. If you don't know if he's dead, then don't argue with me about whether or not he's been proven dead.

Your willingness to just believe he's dead because it's in the best interest of your president is proof of how much a sheep you are. Either come up with a valid argument or just shut up now.

Blind faith is something your president feeds off of, and you're contributing to how the world views Americans. You should be proud.

Name one way Bush is better. Just one. How about one thing he did that's even remotely positive, let alone better than Chretien? I guess coming from a guy who can't spell the man's name I shouldn't expect much of an intellectual argument coming back at me. Cretin? I mean You took the time to use the fancy "accent egu" or whatever but you couldn't double check the spelling?

the world will always look down upon americans. when any country is in need, they love us and turn to us for help. once we help and they are stable again, we are back to being incompetent idiots.

Actually, I believe I read it on here... Could be wrong.

The UNITED NATIONS set up "no fly zones" and had the United States enforce that. That is why Clinton "bombed" those parts of Iraq.

The United Nations gave no authority to the United States to invade Iraq for any reason.

Get your reasons for action clear.

The only thing I have against Clinton.. ok 2 things...

1. Lying to the american public on national tv about the affair.

2. allowing that damn tobacco lawsuit to happen. Sorry, they should have penalized the tobacco comapnies and not the end user. They lied about it's safety, we didn't yet we suffer these high prices... What a crock of shit. Hell, I ahve been smoking for over 22 years.. I read the label before I started... I knew it could be dangerous to my health... fuck that asshole and that fucking lawsuit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Other than that, I think he did a good job.

It's called DNA. Plus the CIA and other agencies have agreed that the audio tapes that have been released over the last 6 months or so were made by Bin Laden.

oic, so clinton did what the un told him to do? or maybe the monica scandel was getting to hot so he needed a diversion.
fuck the UN, they are worthless. i guess because they didnt approve the war in iraq, it HAS to be wrong. move on

Are you truly that retarded or have a memory so short that you don't remember the no fly zones that were set up in Iraq after the Gulf War?

That was WAY back with Bush SENIOR was Prez!
Now..wanna start blaming HIM for something too?
No fly zones were because of Monica??:1orglaugh

You are 100 % right...

Just remember the media coverage of the assassination of Saddam's two sons... That wasn't censored in the US like the POW images...

Bin Laden is alive and the Talibans are gaining grounds in Afghanistan, abandonned as expected by the US.

sorry, i got out of control there. i didnt say the no fly zone was because of monica, i meant clintons motives for action might of been skewed. i think the un is worthless and i dont think their approval or denial is the determining factor in all cases.

perhaps... but it is a good measure of what people think, in my opinion.

If one country wants to do something, and almost all the others don't want to... and that one country does it and millions upon millions of people protest it...

then if nothing else, the UN should at least serve as a guide for waht the majority of people in the world think.

bin Laden is dead. Next year close to election time, they will make the annoucement of his death or "positively identify" his body/remains. Bush is fund raising and confident at this point, the news of Osama's death will be some insurance votes.

The suicide bombers and other bin laden/muslim radicals are doing nothing but copy cat moves and individually created plots. They aren't orders from bin Laden. bin Laden doesn't work on small scales such as blowing up a bus in a small city at this point... he would be unleashing a master plan upon the US... IF he were alive and had power. The few cells, are spread thin and are too ignorant to know the truth... So they keep doing things that they believe bin laden would want or are simply trying to make themselves a hero/saint whatever their demented minds justify it as being.

Saddam cannot run and hide forever. He's got money but he's not a spring chicken. He doesn't have his spawns of satan to supercede him anymore... his days are numbered. He needed to go 10+ years ago... now it's finally one less problem in the world. Whether or not WMD were the reason for going into Iraq, that oil supply will make all the difference 10 or 15 years from now. We killed 2 birds with one stone, Saddam was made an example of... and eventually us liberating the Iraqi people, will pay off to us in the end. We may have to take an economic hit in the meantime, but history dictates this happening over and over.

The fake sense of financial security the Clinton admin/internet boom created for the nation, gave many people a false sense of reality. Of course no one wanted that to end, but the truth is... the Clinton years weren't peachy keen for everyone. In my hometown, many small businesses that were booming in the Reagan/Bush 80s, were going under in the 90s because they could not compete with the dot coms and the chain store giants. The pace was set and not everyone benefitted from Clinton or him turning a blind eye to other areas of interest in the US.

:2 cents: Just my theory and speculations! :)

Ok..this is more like it..we're disagreeing again! :)

"make all the difference 10 or 15 years from now."
Wow..even from you, that's a big admission that it's going to take a LOT of time before Iraq even begins to resemble a stable country without U.S. troops in it.

So, in the meantime, American troops keep dying, we keep killing innocent Iraqis (not the ones attacking the troops, but those killed in "collateral damage"), while we pour BILLIONS of dollars into that rat hole (while we can't even afford a good health plan for our own citizens), so that 15 years down the line, Iraq will be stable and the oil supply will start paying off.

Uh huh...yeah..that does make it all worthwhile. What was I thinking about this war being a bad idea?

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Yes you are a crétin.

hmm, exactly as I thought, you're an idiot like the rest of them. I'm still waiting for a single Bush supporter with an IQ over 50 or ONE valid point about something he's done that has or will have any kind of positive effect on his country or our world as a whole. It's amazing yet hilarious that America is braindead enough to vote this guy in for a second term because he's going to spend a ton of money on TV commercials. :1orglaugh

Well...I am not a fan of President Bush...but to provide you with "ONE valid point about something he's done that has or will have any kind of positive effect on his country or our world as a whole." President Bush with the overwhelming backing of Congress and the American people...declared global war on "terrorists"...a war that is expected to last between 10-30 years. If you approve of this declaration...or not...if you approve of the tactics...or not...is of no consequence. Any President and Congress would have made the same declaration...and use similar tactics. If CONUS is hit again to any significant degree...while this President is in office or another President is in office...you will learn that up to this point or tactics have been mild compared to what will be done.

Oh I admitted from day one, this wouldn't be an easy mission converting a whole country to a true democracy. Iraq and other middle eastern countries are a mess to say the least. This will take years and years to show any signs of stability, profit and positive outcome out of this.

This may hurt in the present and we mayhave to sacrifice because of it, but it's an investment in the future of the US. You know what they saying about having to spend money to make money.

The loss of our soldiers lives is horrible and not worth any amount of oil or money... but casualties are a part of war. There's nothing we can do about it, except try to prevent it as much as possible. Unfortunately, the killing of our soldiers is after the actual combat and has turned into a guerilla war. It's going to take time and money. I expect it for years and years to come... not looking forward to it, but I've accepted it's long duration.

I can't imagine that this war against terror will ever be over. All out war against it? Sure, they *may* slowly weed out terrorism to the point where it can be kept in check by individual gov'ts, but what about the gov'ts that allowed it to happen in the first place?

Regardless of the outcome of the war on terror, I think the US has been too damaged already. Civil rights have gone to shit, and if that is let up, you will end up in the same situation you are in now given enough time. There will *always* be terrorists looking to hit the US where it hurts.

If I were an American I think I'd be more worried about another large 9/11 scale attack. Should that happen, you guys are f'd as far as rights go... hello, martial law.

Terrorism is an action... an idea... a reaction. You can't STOP that.

Terrorism: "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

I'm sorry, but you can't stop that any more than you achieve world peace. Maybe in a sci-fi movie of the future, but not here and now.

And any psychiatrist or psychologist or what ever will tell you that you're setting yourself up for failure and let down by trying to fight something so undefined and abstract... it lacks focus.

a war on terrorism? Good luck... the ONLY result for a war on terrorism is failure.

"the ONLY result for a war on terrorism is failure."...you may be right...or not...but the alternatives to a "war on terrorism" are unacceptable...for it is to do nothing and take the hits or give into the demands of "terrorists".

The war on "terrorists" will be fought by winning hearts and minds...or by terminating hearts and minds...and minds (maybe not hearts) can also be won by terminating hearts and minds.

No, the alternative is to come straight out and say "we're going to take out Osama" and then doing it.

That hasn't been done. Not to most people's satisfaction anyway.

But they can't come out and name names as freely as they want because... well, they have yet to get the people they name. At least the big ones.

Taking out Osama...is not an"alternative"...as it is a part of the war on "terrorists"...terminating hearts and minds. FYI terminating Osama will not be the end of "terrorists"...as he is but one man among thousands...if not millions.

I didn't say actually taking him out is an alternative... I said "say we're going to take him out" , declare war one one person... one country. On one person who has commited an act of terrorism.

That's an achievable goal (or at least, it should be).

But declaring war on something as abstract as all of terrorism itself is a losing cause. And thus... Bush is losing.

not if he wanted the people to think they needed him in office cause the bad men are still out there waiting to pounce.

there is 50 million possibilities and only one true answer, the fact is we do not know the answer.

Global war was declared on "terrorists...and on those countries that sponsor...or "harbor terrorists". "Terrorists" and countries are not "abstract"...and are...and will be...delt with on an idividual bases...as the opportunity or need arises...with real measures.

The war on "terrorists" is not being lost...as the war has just basically begun. Finances have been sized...orgs supplying finances have been taken down...communications have been disrupted...operations have been disrupted...cells have been taken down...and leaders have been killed or captured...two countries have had their governments taken down. I repeat the war has basically just begun.

People didn't joke for months about the "war on terra" because he was declaring it on terrorists.

He declared war on TERROR and that's that. Live with it.

I suppose you understand your post?

yes, terror is an abstract idea... what part isn't sinking in here?

I terrorize you... you don't declare war on the terror, you declare war on me.

They are 2 very separate and different things. And declare war on one will result in failure unless you can present to the world an ever lasting peace. And that... can not be done.

What part do you not understand..."terror" may be abstract as you say...but "terrorists" and countries that "sponsor" or "harbor" "terrorists" are not abstract and can be delt with using real measures. Global war was declared or "terrorists" and on those countries that "sponsor" or "harbor" "terrorists"...not an abstraction.

So what's this "war on terror" thing? Oh, right... getting Bin Laden. How's that going for ya?

Right... it's not. Too bad huh? Guess the US military isn't all it's cracked up to be? Perhaps a fault of its leaders?

Then again, maybe it's the fault of its followers... you know, the ones that argue with "it is how you say... but" or "you may be right but" and still continue to argue your own little point that is only proving my point more.

YOU ARE FAILING. The entire United Sates is failing. Can't get Osama. Can't get Sadam. Can't maintain your own economy. Can't even protect your own people.

The United States can't do anything it says it'll do in the real world, so it has to declare war on an ideal... an abstract realism that is a reaction to what it is doing in the first place.

End result?

The US moves into some place it doesn't belong.... they hate that. They revolt and rebel and you call it terrorism. You fail at stopping it, because you're the cause. And continuing it just causes more. You can't really stop now so you change the parameters. You can't seem to catch one single person... so instead of trying to stop that person, you try to stop his reaction. And the reaction of others who feel the same way, or may feel that way some day. But you can't.

But there's those of you who like you, refuse to see it and day in and day out believe you're fighting the good fight and accomplishing so much... that you routinely turn a blind eye to the failures around you.

The US will continue on, and endure and continue to be one of the, if not the greatest nation in the world. But it'll still always be a failure in what it is doing right now. And Bush might be at fault but so are those that give him their support.

Here are some " todays or future terrorists" :

They were not terrorist when the USA " declared war" on terror... ( BTW" the USA NEVER declares war: they just go in conflicts...), but now they are.

So as Maskedman said, terror and terrorists are an intangible component, and evolve as the situation does the same.

The USA will never win this war with this administration.

We have not killed or captured Osama...and we have not killed or captured Saddam...but both are neutralized to a great degree and that is an understament. Both will either be killed...captured...or die in exile. Both are not important as individuals in the big picture...other than as "trophies"...and their death or capture will not end "terrorists". Several top leaders in al Qaeda have been killed or captured as well as "members" within al Qaeda. Out of 52 of Saddams henchmen that the US most wanted...40 plus have been killed or captured.

I repeat..."terror"..."terrorism" may be abstractions...but individual "terrorists" are not...they are real people and their orgs are real orgs...and the countries that "sponsor" or "harbor" them are real...and all can be delt with...by one means or another.

Their hearts and minds will be won...or their hearts and minds will be terminated...and the countries that "sponsor" or "harbor" them will rid themselves of these actions...or the US will rid them of their governing power.

I repeat the "war" has just begun...and the end is no where in sight.