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Groove

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#1

The revised Acacia fees are insane!

10-09-2003, 12:33 AM

I was under the impression that Acacia was seeking 2% of our
gross income with a minimum annual payment of $1,500.

But then I read the License:

http://www.acaciatechnologies.com/pr...eAgreement.pdf

If I understand correctly, someone who estimates their likely annual earnings to be no more than $100,000 would pay a $1,500 royalty in advance. But then it turns out that your actual earnings for the year are $100,001, Acacia will demand an additional $8,100, thus you'd be paying Acacia $9,600 or 9.6% of your gross income!

And in this Ynot story:

http://ynotnews.ynotmasters.com/issu...203/page2.html

Rob Berman from Acacia says:

After November 30, 2003, we will no longer be offering waivers for past infringement and will be raising our royalty rates.

I can't wait to see what the higher fees will be
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detoxed

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#2

10-09-2003, 12:34 AM

all for the ends
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Tipsy

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#3

10-09-2003, 02:04 AM

I never have figured out why anyone thinks 2% of gross is peanuts. Even the tax man only gets about that if the accountant does his job properly.

Ignorance is never bliss.
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sexeducation

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#4

10-09-2003, 02:08 AM

<h2>I WILL NOT REPORT TO ACACIA</H2>

wow
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#5

10-09-2003, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by sexeducation
<h2>I WILL NOT REPORT TO ACACIA</H2>

wow

dude.. with all due respect i read that a lot from you but face it:

you HAVE nothing to report so shut the fuck up.
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#6

10-09-2003, 02:28 AM

Originally posted by mrthumbs

dude.. with all due respect i read that a lot from you but face it:

you HAVE nothing to report so shut the fuck up.

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Groove

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#7

10-09-2003, 02:35 AM

Originally posted by Tipsy
I never have figured out why anyone thinks 2% of gross is peanuts. Even the tax man only gets about that if the accountant does his job properly.

Did you read what I said? You could pay 9.6%!

And presumably much more when they raise their royalties.
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sexeducation

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#8

10-09-2003, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by mrthumbs

dude.. with all due respect i read that a lot from you but face it:

you HAVE nothing to report so shut the fuck up.

How the fuck do you know "dude" ?
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sexeducation

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#9

10-09-2003, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by Groove

Did you read what I said? You could pay 9.6%!

And presumably much more when they raise their royalties.

Exactly ... it's time to wake up the "communities" involved.

LISTEN UP ACACIA !!!

Your money is running out.

Time to apply for some "Enron" settlements.
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#10

10-09-2003, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by sexeducation

How the fuck do you know "dude" ?

Every post you make on the subject shows you have no clue
what you are talking about.

Screaming 'fuck you acacia' doesnt get you any respect by
default dude, you should try something else to get recognized around here

edit:
unless you are supplying free streams to toddlers ofcourse..

Last edited by mrthumbs; 10-09-2003, 02:53 AM.
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Tipsy

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#11

10-09-2003, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by Groove

Did you read what I said? You could pay 9.6%!

And presumably much more when they raise their royalties.

Of course I read it. I was simply making the point that even the 2% is not peanuts. We're talking gross here. Many VERY successful big mainstream companies would have all their profits wiped out if they had to pay 2% gross. It never was 'peanuts' yet people kep brushing it off as if 2% mattered little. For it to be even higher is just insane. And as has been pointed out numerous times it wont stop there. There's a whole truck load of other leeches waiting around the corner to take their 2-9.6% too.

Ignorance is never bliss.
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#12

10-09-2003, 04:13 AM

Originally posted by Tipsy
Of course I read it. I was simply making the point that even the 2% is not peanuts. We're talking gross here. Many VERY successful big mainstream companies would have all their profits wiped out if they had to pay 2% gross. It never was 'peanuts' yet people kep brushing it off as if 2% mattered little. For it to be even higher is just insane. And as has been pointed out numerous times it wont stop there. There's a whole truck load of other leeches waiting around the corner to take their 2-9.6% too.

Well I agree with you

Unless Acacia looses in court, many adult businesses will
fold and EVERYONE will have their profits reduced.

And as for the other leeches lining-up
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Mr.Fiction

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#13

10-09-2003, 04:44 AM

There is no reason they can't "demand" 250% of your gross income.

The company that owns the patent on florescent lights can demand 500% of your profits if you use a florescent light in your office.

What do you think the odds are that either of them will get what they want from a judge or jury, valid patent or not?

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Groove

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#14

10-09-2003, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
There is no reason they can't "demand" 250% of your gross income.

The company that owns the patent on florescent lights can demand 500% of your profits if you use a florescent light in your office.

What do you think the odds are that either of them will get what they want from a judge or jury, valid patent or not?

Are you implying that Acacia's patent may be unsuccessful because a judge/jury thinks they're charging too much? If so, I would not like to be betting my business on that assumption!
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#15

10-09-2003, 05:36 AM

Originally posted by mrthumbs

Every post you make on the subject shows you have no clue
what you are talking about.

Screaming 'fuck you acacia' doesnt get you any respect by
default dude, you should try something else to get recognized around here

edit:
unless you are supplying free streams to toddlers ofcourse..

I second that.

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#16

10-09-2003, 06:03 AM

Originally posted by grumpy

I second that.

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#17

10-09-2003, 06:05 AM

Hello all,

All the work that I have been doing in the last 60 days to bring awareness and find prior art has come to this fine moment of presenting to the adult webmaster the community, the opportunity to form a unique organization, a non-profit (501c3) entity whose focus is to help defendants in patent abuse cases find prior art evidence and expert witnesses, as well as to help invalidate bad patents directly with the USPTO.

More info here: http://www.FightThePatent.com/go

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#18

10-09-2003, 06:06 AM

Originally posted by sexeducation

How the fuck do you know "dude" ?

Anyone who visits your site knows, "dude". Fuck off.

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FightThisPatent

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#19

10-09-2003, 06:10 AM

Originally posted by Tipsy
I never have figured out why anyone thinks 2% of gross is peanuts. Even the tax man only gets about that if the accountant does his job properly.

As Groove pointed out, the fees are alot more than just 2%, starting with a MINIMUM yearly fee of $1,500 for webmasters making less than $50K.

You can see their strategy... if 100,000 websites paid a minimum of $1,500/year, they would make $150M

This is why the attorneys and accounts there are all giddy.

There are so many problems with the patent claims. There are so many places to poke holes at the claims, it's almost like hard to pick a place to start.

To get an example of the absurdity of the language used: http://www.FightThePatent.com/v2/Teleportation.html

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Mr.Fiction

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#20

10-09-2003, 06:32 AM

Originally posted by Groove

Are you implying that Acacia's patent may be unsuccessful because a judge/jury thinks they're charging too much? If so, I would not like to be betting my business on that assumption!

No, what I'm saying is that even if the patent were to be found valid, they can't make you pay anything. They can ask you to pay 250% of your gross. Only a judge or jury can make you pay anything.

If they demand more than what is fair, then a judge or jury will tell them no.

What if the company who owned the patent on staplers demanded 50% of your gross income from your entire business because you had a stapler in your office? Do you think they would get it?

Talk to a lawyer, if you haven't already. There are more issues here than just the patent. The license demands are something else that anyone who has a good lawyer will fight.

Acacia will be tied up in court for a long time on a lot of issues.

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FightThisPatent

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#21

10-09-2003, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction

If they demand more than what is fair, then a judge or jury will tell them no.

This is my understanding as well... I have started to study Patent Law.. with the goal of taking the Patent Exam so that i can see eye-to-eye with these attorneys like Berman who has knocked Spike down because he isn't an attorney and "doesn't understand that law" kind of comments.

What these attorneys don't understand is technology.... people like me who have 17 years of computing experiences are "skilled in the arts" and can see what is obvious and what is not.

They can't learn technology by reading a magazine, but i can learn Patent Law by reading some books.

All of this goes towards my efforts with Fight The Patent Foundation. Please show your support if Acacia and the many other patent abuse issues concern you.

Check out my thread at : http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...hreadid=184141

it should really get you going about patents...

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Zorgman

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#22

10-09-2003, 06:54 AM

Does Acacia's patent effect mainstream companies like CNN, yahoo etc?

---
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Groove

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#23

10-09-2003, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by Zorgman
Does Acacia's patent effect mainstream companies like CNN, yahoo etc?

If they offer downloadable or streaming video or audio, yes.

But Acacia is presently more interested in first picking the low
hanging fruit [like us] so that they will have the funds and legal
precedents to later take on the big guys such as CNN, etc.
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FightThisPatent

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#24

10-09-2003, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by Groove

But Acacia is presently more interested in first picking the low
hanging fruit [like us] so that they will have the funds and legal
precedents to later take on the big guys such as CNN, etc.

or, they may never hit up the big guys, for the fact it will get them stuck in court for years......

I believe their strategy is not go after companies with deep pockets or companies that make the streaming server software, far more money to be made picking on smaller websites.. even ones that don't make more than $50K/year.. atleast they will get $1,500/year from them in licensing fees... multiply that by, say 100,000 websites, and you got $150M per year.

That makes more sense than spending millions in expenses to fight the big boys.

Problem is, websites are fighting back! HomeGrownVideo and many other companies are taking the Patent Pepsi Challenge.

And I am sure in their "risk assessment" document in preparation for their "attack", they never considered that someone like me would stop their own business and consulting efforts, dedicate a full time effort to bringing awareness and finding prior art for the last 2 months, and then turnaround and launch the start of a non-profit organization whose charter is to continue the work of FightThePatent.com, and focus on ALL patent abuse cases, but this time with more money and resources.

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Far-L

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#25

10-09-2003, 07:40 AM

A little bird told me that Acacia has begun sending packets out to the "biggies" like CNN, etc.

The same little bird suggested that the mainstream folks are looking at the inspiration that our efforts have provided and are not in any hurry to settle.

Now... I am not saying that the calvery charge of the mainstream to our embattled aid is going to happen any time soon, but I am saying that Acacia is possibly losing momentum no matter how hard they try to spin it otherwise.

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#26

10-09-2003, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by Far-L
A little bird told me that Acacia has begun sending packets out to the "biggies" like CNN, etc.

what is interesting, is that many articles have reported that Acacia was building up its war chest with licensee money in order to help fund their efforts going forward...

but, there are supposed provisions in the license agreements that state something like if the patent is found to be invalid, then they have to return the money.

So any license money they receive most likely needs to sit in escrow somewhere.. and maybe they will use the interest from the money to fund their efforts, rather than the actual money collected.

being a public company who has already been battered by V-chip failure, having to lose this patent track would certainly add "failure" to their list of options.

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TheFLY

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#27

10-09-2003, 08:16 AM

They said on the D-Money show they can charge whatever they want but they were just being nice with the 2%
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#28

10-09-2003, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by TheFLY
They said on the D-Money show they can charge whatever they want but they were just being nice with the 2%

Lawyers are not in the business of being "nice".

They either stop people from doing things, or defend people for doing things.

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#29

10-09-2003, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by Groove

Well I agree with you

Unless Acacia looses in court, many adult businesses will
fold and EVERYONE will have their profits reduced.

And as for the other leeches lining-up

No everyone will not have their profits reduced. Those that ratted on the industry by taking sweetheart deals will pick up the surfers who want videos, along with people like us in Czech, or maybe the whole of Europe.

That is until SightSound and US Video ask for a piece of the cake and know they will get it.

It is no good screaming like an idiot, sexidiocation, you have to put your hands into your pockets today and give to the fighting fund. Or go find another industry.

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Paul Markham

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#30

10-09-2003, 09:13 AM

Hey Brad
I've just given some money, well it's just a pledge so far. Our old CC processor has our money. Will pledge some more soon.

Or maybe organise an auction of content. Anyone interested?

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#31

10-09-2003, 11:07 AM

Yea beauty of the whole game is

processor 12-15%
bs acacia 8-10%
affiliates 50+%

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FightThisPatent

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#32

10-09-2003, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by Keev
Yea beauty of the whole game is

processor 12-15%
bs acacia 8-10%
affiliates 50+%

don't forget cost of:

-content
-bandwidth
-marketing
-overhead
-taxes
-other BS patent license taxes

-----------------------------------

left.

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sexeducation

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#33

10-09-2003, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by charly
Hey Brad
I've just given some money, well it's just a pledge so far. Our old CC processor has our money. Will pledge some more soon.

Or maybe organise an auction of content. Anyone interested?

I'll donate a domain name to your auction.
And time for good SE placement.
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#34

10-09-2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by Groove

Well I agree with you

Unless Acacia looses in court, many adult businesses will
fold and EVERYONE will have their profits reduced.

And as for the other leeches lining-up

No, many will take the video service off til the patent is reversed

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Groove

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#35

10-09-2003, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by sexeducation
I'll donate a domain name to your auction.
And time for good SE placement.

Please stay out of the Acacia threads!

Nobody wants your "help"
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#36

10-09-2003, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by sexeducation

I'll donate a domain name to your auction.
And time for good SE placement.

ya will pay the lawyers with your domains and pedo SE placement

Get a clue you dumb fuck
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#37

10-09-2003, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by mrthumbs

dude.. with all due respect i read that a lot from you but face it:

you HAVE nothing to report so shut the fuck up.

I play with Google.
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#38

10-09-2003, 05:53 PM

Sucks
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ravener

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#39

10-09-2003, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Far-L
A little bird told me that Acacia has begun sending packets out to the "biggies" like CNN, etc.

The same little bird suggested that the mainstream folks are looking at the inspiration that our efforts have provided and are not in any hurry to settle.

Now... I am not saying that the calvery charge of the mainstream to our embattled aid is going to happen any time soon, but I am saying that Acacia is possibly losing momentum no matter how hard they try to spin it otherwise.

Tell that little bird to fly over Flynt's house and drop his load for the team.

After the news this week, I would suspect that the honcho's at CNN are looking more at what Larry did than what us peons are doing.
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#40

10-09-2003, 06:37 PM

ok, now to get the thread back on track.....

yes, the license fee schedule is insane!

Berman said in a YNOT interview that other patent holders charge like 6-10%....as if this was to make things better.... like glueing sandpaper to a pill that you have to swallow.

If all of this outrages you, then you can fight back by pledging your support for Fight The Patent Foundation.

Learn more about my idea of a non-profit organization to specifically focus on fighting against patent abuse cases by petitioning the USPTO directly to invalidate patents as well as to assist defendants in litigation with prior art research and expert witnesses. It's like the ACLU model of helping the little guys that are faced with patent infringement issues, but on a broader scale, where it is a patent abuse case that affects so many companies.

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#41

10-09-2003, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by FightThisPatent

but, there are supposed provisions in the license agreements that state something like if the patent is found to be invalid, then they have to return the money.

So any license money they receive most likely needs to sit in escrow somewhere.. and maybe they will use the interest from the money to fund their efforts, rather than the actual money collected.

As I recall from his Dmoney interview, Berman specifically said that there are no refunds if the patent winds up getting invalidated. The corporate view as a public company is --- tough shit!
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#42

10-09-2003, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by ravener

As I recall from his Dmoney interview, Berman specifically said that there are no refunds if the patent winds up getting invalidated. The corporate view as a public company is --- tough shit!

I asked this question about getting money back if the patent is found invalid to the General Counsel for New Frontier, and he said that it was in the licensing agreement..., they have to put that in the agreement, otherwise it would be a big no-no.

He also chuckled at the amount that they paid for the licensing, being a sweetheart deal i am sure.... i didn't get the figure.

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#43

10-09-2003, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by FightThisPatent

Berman said in a YNOT interview that other patent holders charge like 6-10%....

Did he name companies and patents?

They are probably comparing patents and percentages that are irrelevant to this case.

If you have a patent on a small part that is used in automobile manufacturing, you cannot ask Ford for 6-10% of their gross sales. It simply does not happen in business that way.

There are a countless patents in the world, yet there are few companies in the entire world who would ever consider giving up 10% of their gross income.

I would be interested in knowing the names of a few companies who give up over 8% of their gross income to a single patent holder on a patent that is not the central part of their business.

Good lawyers would not allow it to happen.

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#44

10-09-2003, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction

Did he name companies and patents?

here is a link to the article, at the very bottom is where he throws out he 6-10% figure...

http://ynotnews.ynotmasters.com/issu...203/page2.html

maybe he went to some patent licensing convention and this was their hot topic, about how much should/can they charge without seeming unreasonable....

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#45

10-09-2003, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by ravener

Tell that little bird to fly over Flynt's house and drop his load for the team.

After the news this week, I would suspect that the honcho's at CNN are looking more at what Larry did than what us peons are doing.

We have been on the Forbes website, other various business/tech site articles, plus our adult press. Tech TV did an interview.

Without going into great detail, we have gotten noticed and we have made some powerful allies that know Acacia and have the same problems that we have with them. We continue to try and get the word out and draw attention to what is happening.

No big mainstream companies want to "get into bed" publicly with the adult industry, but that does not mean that they don't pay attention and realize the potential here. Nor does it mean that they will make the same "business decision" that those other companies made in spite of saying that they do not believe the patents to have merit.

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#46

10-09-2003, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by Far-L
A little bird told me that Acacia has begun sending packets out to the "biggies" like CNN, etc.

You might be surprised at how many of the big companies will pay these greed mongers at the request of their attorneys..

Just as some big companies will settle law suits out of court; paying a good chunk o' change just to end the fiasco and not spend more in court....
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#47

10-09-2003, 08:21 PM

Since we're working in a suite of paysites, I asked my lawyer about this and I've shown him all the material I've found at fightthepatent.com. He was very surprised about this and was going to make a consultation to a patents specialist, but at simple sight cannot even understand that US juries overpass all contractual laws. More or less, when you purchase something, it's a contract agreement, and buy/sell of goods contracts implies the selling of the good (or service) "as is" unless otherwise noticed. So, if there's something wrong, the full responsability goes to the seller of the product or service since he/she didn't advice the buyer in a written contract and the buyer adquires full rights on a "bona fide" basis. In short: I buy a video, I buy a PC, I buy a server or whatever... unless there's an Acacia (or whatever bullshit) paragraph or advice of any kind, I'm not responsible at all. That's what I understood from my lawyer, and even when he'll research a little more with proper specialists, the law of contracts is a basic principle in any legal system based in Roman Right, which is the base of the Western laws. Something as absurd as Acacia claims will end with all the securities provided by contracts since there will be a precedent that anyone can ask for money or even your own business without your knowledge (not to mention consent).

On another note, if this bulshit goes on, I can see most US Internet companies flying away off US, since Acacia only reachs some countries, not all, so I imagine when US politicians see this they will say "put some concrete shoes on these Acacia boys and drawn them in the Hudson"

And a final note: why US webmasters, instead of becoming board warriors don't become real life civic right fighters? Just ask your representatives to stop this, go together with media an dthings like this. Making a foundation (even tho it's a good cause) with 5000 dollars is not exactly what will save you

This post is endorsed by CIA, KGB, MI6, the Mafia, Illuminati, Kim Jong Il, Worldwide Ninjas Association, Klingon Empire and lolcats. Don't mess around with it, just accept it and embrace the truth
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Groove

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#48

10-09-2003, 09:05 PM

For the record, the numbers in my initial post were from Acacia's Content Provider License. A similar scenario for a webmaster goes like this... If you estimate that your annual earnings will be no more than $50,001-100,000 you'll pay a $3,000 annual royalty (ie 3-6% of your gross) IN ADVANCE. But if it turns out that your actual earnings for the year are $100,001 (ie just $1 over your estimate), Acacia will demand an additional $6,750, thus you'll be paying Acacia a total of $9,750 or 9.75% of your gross income! And Acacia says that they will be increasing their royalties from 1 December!

Here's a link to the full contract:

http://www.acaciatechnologies.com/pr...eAgreement.pdf
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sexeducation

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#49

10-09-2003, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by mrthumbs

Every post you make on the subject shows you have no clue
what you are talking about.

Screaming 'fuck you acacia' doesnt get you any respect by
default dude, you should try something else to get recognized around here

edit:
unless you are supplying free streams to toddlers ofcourse..

Hey ass clown ...
I'm donating my blogging time ...
I'm very good at getting attention and "stirring it up".

TIP: A good "blog" includes something the others can grab onto and blog back ...
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sexeducation

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#50

10-09-2003, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by Groove
For the record, the numbers in my initial post were from Acacia's Content Provider License. A similar scenario for a webmaster goes like this... If you estimate that your annual earnings will be no more than $50,001-100,000 you'll pay a $3,000 annual royalty (ie 3-6% of your gross) IN ADVANCE. But if it turns out that your actual earnings for the year are $100,001 (ie just $1 over your estimate), Acacia will demand an additional $6,750, thus you'll be paying Acacia a total of $9,750 or 9.75% of your gross income! And Acacia says that they will be increasing their royalties from 1 December!

Here's a link to the full contract:

http://www.acaciatechnologies.com/pr...eAgreement.pdf

Awesome post bud.
Hence - I'm here.
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