France and the United States are at war

[lil2rich4u2]

oh well, back to freadom fries i guess

[Amputate Your Head]

[lil2rich4u2]

wtf?

something odd going on here ..

[theking]

< < Back to Start of Article It's time Americans came to terms with something: France is not just an annoying ally. It is not just a jealous rival. France is becoming America's enemy.
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If you add up how France behaved in the run-up to the Iraq war (making it impossible for the Security Council to put a real ultimatum to Saddam Hussein that might have avoided a war), and if you look at how France behaved during the war (when its foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin, refused to answer the question of whether he wanted Saddam or America to win in Iraq), and if you watch how France is behaving today (demanding some kind of loopy symbolic transfer of Iraqi sovereignty to some kind of hastily thrown together Iraqi provisional government, with the rest of Iraq's transition to democracy to be overseen more by a divided United Nations than by America), then there is only one conclusion one can draw: France wants America to fail in Iraq.
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France wants America to sink in a quagmire there in the crazy hope that a weakened United States will pave the way for France to assume its "rightful" place as America's equal, if not superior, in shaping world affairs.
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Yes, the Bush team's arrogance has sharpened French hostility. Had President George W. Bush and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld not been so full of themselves right after America's military victory in Iraq - and instead used that moment, when the French were feeling that maybe they should have taken part, to magnanimously reach out to Paris to join in reconstruction - it might have softened French attitudes. But even that I have doubts about. What I have no doubts about, though, is that there is no coherent, legitimate Iraqi authority able to assume power in the near term, and trying to force one now would lead to a dangerous internal struggle and delay the building of the democratic institutions Iraq so badly needs. Iraqis know this. France knows this, which is why its original proposal (which it now seems to be backtracking on a bit) could only be malicious. What is so amazing to me about the French campaign - "Operation America Must Fail" - is that France seems to have given no thought as to how this would affect France. Let me spell it out in English: If America is defeated in Iraq by a coalition of Saddamists and Islamists, radical Muslim groups - from Baghdad to the Muslim slums of Paris - will all be energized, and the forces of modernism and tolerance within these Muslim communities will be on the run. To think that France, with its large Muslim minority, where radicals are already gaining strength, would not see its own social fabric affected by this is fanciful.
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If France were serious, it would be using its influence within the European Union to assemble an army of 25,000 Eurotroops, and a $5 billion reconstruction package, and then saying to the Bush team: Here, we're sincere about helping to rebuild Iraq, but now we want a real seat at the management table. Instead, the French have put out an ill-conceived proposal, just to show that they can be different, without any promise that even if America said yes Paris would make a meaningful contribution.
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But then France has never been interested in promoting democracy in the modern Arab world, which is why its pose as the new protector of Iraqi representative government - after being so content with Saddam's one-man rule - is so patently cynical. Clearly, not all European Union countries are comfortable with this French mischief, yet many are going along for the ride. It's stunning to me that the EU, misled by France, could let itself be written out of the most important political development project in modern Middle East history. The whole tone and direction of the Arab-Muslim world, which is right on Europe's doorstep, will be affected by the outcome in Iraq. It would be as if America said it did not care what happened in Mexico because it was mad at Spain.
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Says John Chipman, director of the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies: "What the Europeans are saying about Iraq is that this is our backyard, we're not going to let you meddle in it, but we're not going to tend it ourselves."
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But what's most sad is that France is right - America will not be as effective or legitimate in its efforts to rebuild Iraq without French help. Having France working with us in Iraq, rather than against us in the world, would be so beneficial for both nations and for the Arabs' future. Too bad this French government has other priorities. It's time Americans came to terms with something: France is not just an annoying ally. It is not just a jealous rival. France is becoming America's enemy.
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If you add up how France behaved in the run-up to the Iraq war (making it impossible for the Security Council to put a real ultimatum to Saddam Hussein that might have avoided a war), and if you look at how France behaved during the war (when its foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin, refused to answer the question of whether he wanted Saddam or America to win in Iraq), and if you watch how France is behaving today (demanding some kind of loopy symbolic transfer of Iraqi sovereignty to some kind of hastily thrown together Iraqi provisional government, with the rest of Iraq's transition to democracy to be overseen more by a divided United Nations than by America), then there is only one conclusion one can draw: France wants America to fail in Iraq.
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France wants America to sink in a quagmire there in the crazy hope that a weakened United States will pave the way for France to assume its "rightful" place as America's equal, if not superior, in shaping world affairs.

http://www.iht.com/articles/110418.html

[Amputate Your Head]

Originally posted by lil2rich4u2
wtf?

something odd going on here ..

[gothweb]

"If you're not with us you're against us." Is a nice way of saying, "Don't argue, or we will bomb you too." America's current regime is a bunch of bullies.

[wdsguy]

I hate france

[Libertine]

There's still a big difference between being enemies and being at war.

[gothweb]

Originally posted by punkworld
There's still a big difference between being enemies and being at war.

Yeah. Wait till someone in the White House realizes France has had the Bomb for decades! Plus, they have a tradition of war with our closest Ally that has lasted almost a thousand years. Plus, they are a very socialist nation, prone to protest and even rioting, who have revolutions so ofte, they are on their fifth republic. Better send in the Marines!

[ADL Colin]

France has often positioned itself as a balance to US power politically for many years - at least since WW II. Of course, French statesmen view this as the art of classic power politics diplomacy and I'm inclined to agree with them. France acts in it's best interests.

This is not a one-sided story. There has been some notable support of US positions by France over the years. Mitterand's advocation of US intermediate-range missiles deployed in Europe comes to mind.

Many Americans don't realize how much of a world power France is. Though they are far behind the US in military and economic power, they are quite the political power as a leader for a more aggressive EU, a member of NATO, and hold veto power in the UN.

They've certainly been the leader in forging a European identity separate from that of the US. What can you say? They play a good game.

[Mr.Fiction]

Rooster loves France.

[Libertine]

Originally posted by Colin
France has often positioned itself as a balance to US power politically for many years - at least since WW II. Of course, French statesmen view this as the art of classic power politics diplomacy and I'm inclined to agree with them. France acts in it's best interests.

This is not a one-sided story. There has been some notable support of US positions by France over the years. Mitterand's advocation of US intermediate-range missiles deployed in Europe comes to mind.

Many Americans don't realize how much of a world power France is. Though they are far behind the US in military and economic power, they are quite the political power as a leader for a more aggressive EU, a member of NATO, and hold veto power in the UN.

They've certainly been the leader in forging a European identity separate from that of the US. What can you say? They play a good game.

I wouldn't really say France leads the EU. Germany, the UK and France all compete for that position.

[ADL Colin]

Originally posted by punkworld


I wouldn't really say France leads the EU. Germany, the UK and France all compete for that position.

Good morning, Punkworld. I think you misread what I wrote.

I said "as a leader for a more aggressive EU"

Note the word "a" and the phrase "for a more aggressive".

[Libertine]

Originally posted by Colin


Good morning, Punkworld. I think you misread what I wrote.

I said "as a leader for a more aggressive EU"

Note the word "a" and the phrase "for a more aggressive".

Good morning, Colin. Indeed I misread what you wrote. Then again, it's still early over here, and I haven't had my coffee yet

[jayeff]

theking: like everyone else you are entitled to whatever views you want. But I really do not understand the point of trying to promote and/or defend them in the transparently flawed way that you do. Who exactly is your audience?

You say that "France has never been interested in promoting democracy in the modern Arab world". Has anyone? Are we supposed to conveniently forget that the US has spent the last 70 years actively de-stabilising the region?

The foreign policy of every country on earth is determined by its economic, territorial and political priorities. Do you seriously imagine for one moment that the UK government supported Bush because it was felt that he occupied some sort of moral high ground? Britain is - largely by choice - an outsider in Europe and thus always hangs on to the coat-tails of the US. Likewise, do you imagine that the French or German governments really thought that the world would not be a better place without Saddam Hussein? That would have been an almost totally irrelevant consideration for them. All they would see was US ambition running contrary to their own national interests.

And now that Iraq like Afghanistan, is turning into a dangerous and expensive quagmire for the US, these countries have an opportunity to score some points off the man who basically gave them the finger a few months ago. Are they doing any more than Bush & Co did when they had the chance? Of course not, and to say anything except that they are all as bad as each other is at best, disingenuous.

[ADL Colin]

Originally posted by punkworld


Good morning, Colin. Indeed I misread what you wrote. Then again, it's still early over here, and I haven't had my coffee yet

Sipping from my first cup myself.

[lawked]

Power unchecked = ?

Look at ICANN and Verisign. They're ass fucking the net ... unchecked power. At least France has the balls to speak up against the US... right or wrong.

Please do not vote Bush in 2004. I will bet 1000 dollars that if he gets in again.. there will be another big attack.

Everyone loves the states but hardly anyone likes Bush.

Watch Bowling for Columbine.

[theking]

Originally posted by jayeff
theking: like everyone else you are entitled to whatever views you want. But I really do not understand the point of trying to promote and/or defend them in the transparently flawed way that you do. Who exactly is your audience?

You say that "France has never been interested in promoting democracy in the modern Arab world". Has anyone? Are we supposed to conveniently forget that the US has spent the last 70 years actively de-stabilising the region?

Actually I have not said anything...I posted a news article...so I think you are addressing the wrong person. Have you had your coffee yet?

[Libertine]

Originally posted by Colin


Sipping from my first cup myself.

As a sidenote, though, I think France's political power is disproportionally big, and will continue to weaken over the next couple of decades. Within the EU they are a force to be reckoned with, and within the world the EU is a force to be reckoned with, but on a global level France is a lot less important than the French like to believe.
The problem is that their view of the world is based on a history in which only Europe was the world's centre of power, and that simply isn't the case anymore - hasn't been for quite a while, but some people take a bit of time to catch on

[ControlThy]

Very biased.

[ControlThy]

Both France and the United States overestimate themselves, though for the United States, there is more at stake.

[theking]

Originally posted by lawked
Power unchecked = ?

Look at ICANN and Verisign. They're ass fucking the net ... unchecked power. At least France has the balls to speak up against the US... right or wrong.

Please do not vote Bush in 2004. I will bet 1000 dollars that if he gets in again.. there will be another big attack.

Everyone loves the states but hardly anyone likes Bush.

Watch Bowling for Columbine.

What is to be learned from a satirist who made a satirical film?

[theking]

Originally posted by Colin


Sipping from my first cup myself.

Ahh...good morning Colin.

[flashfreak]

Originally posted by Colin


Good morning, Punkworld. I think you misread what I wrote.

I said "as a leader for a more aggressive EU"

Note the word "a" and the phrase "for a more aggressive".

good morning Collin.
As I remember France was the country that opossed to the war with all its powers.. where is the aggresivity?
speaking of a leader: UE won't have one. If we're talking about a financial leader then Germany has the most significant role.
"a leader for a more aggresive EU" is derivated from the bullshit you're eating on CNN every day. happy meal!

[Libertine]

Originally posted by ControlThy
Both France and the United States overestimate themselves, though for the United States, there is more at stake.

Actually, I'm afraid the US don't overestimate themselves. They are the world's only current superpower, both economically and militarily. The question is, can they handle it?
Personally, I hope the EU continues turning into the USE so things get balanced out a bit again. An asian superpower would be nice as well, if it could be a democratic one.

[HomeO]

all this timei thought gfy was adult web maters .. it's really a giant political debate

[ControlThy]

Originally posted by punkworld


Actually, I'm afraid the US don't overestimate themselves. They are the world's only current superpower, both economically and militarily. The question is, can they handle it?
Personally, I hope the EU continues turning into the USE so things get balanced out a bit again. An asian superpower would be nice as well, if it could be a democratic one.

Overestimating themselves in how many things the world will take from them.

And yes, a second worldpower would definitely balance things - I do hope the EU can get over their internal political problems and fulfill this role.

[GTS Mark]

Originally posted by Amputate Your Head

NICE!!

DH

[ControlThy]

Originally posted by HomeO
all this timei thought gfy was adult web maters .. it's really a giant political debate

Why would adult webmasters not be interested in politics?

[ADL Colin]

Originally posted by theking


Ahh...good morning Colin.

G'day :-)

What's going down?

[Libertine]

Originally posted by ControlThy


Overestimating themselves in how many things the world will take from them.

And yes, a second worldpower would definitely balance things - I do hope the EU can get over their internal political problems and fulfill this role.

The world doesn't have much choice, that's the problem. Any country or small group of countries that boycots the US will only hurt itself. Only larger, more organized forces can really make a difference.
That's what other superpowers are needed for - to create mutual dependancy.

[theking]

Originally posted by Colin


G'day :-)

What's going down?

Me...very soon...it has been a long night.

[chemicaleyes]

Originally posted by ControlThy
a second worldpower would definitely balance things - I do hope the EU can get over their internal political problems and fulfill this role.

[Troels]

Originally posted by ControlThy


Overestimating themselves in how many things the world will take from them.

And yes, a second worldpower would definitely balance things - I do hope the EU can get over their internal political problems and fulfill this role.

I'm afraid that's just not gonna happen. Too much history between certain countries, and VERY different social structures.

And with the increase to 25 countries instead of 15 things are just gonna get more muddy. Especially when you consider most of the 10 new countries are piss-poor.

I foresee the crumble of the political union. It's only the trade union which is popular and successful.

[KRL]

I really wouldn't be too concerned about the Frenchies. They're still perfecting their missle technology.