While the most of us don't have to worry about the Feds. We DO have to sweat the interpretation of the LOCAL authorities in the use of these laws. Hopefully most of you grasp the concept that that they can look into or thru your house etc etc etc. The locals could really bend the rules to fit just about anything.Bottom line is, this just isn't a Federal thing but ALL so called 'enforcement' law.

I am sorry that I didn't make it more clear, initially, that I was talking about Democracy, and only about Democracy.

well, I guess you consider your country worth fighting for, and that's your perogative

I guess it depends how you want to spend your life

seriously though - how much difference do you think you can make, just 'lil old you?

Anyone that compares 21st century America to Russia is completely out of their fuckin mind :1orglaugh

You think the US is headed that way? Tell that to a mob of trailer park people, gang of thugs in the ghetto and people living in cushy homes on Park Ave and in Beverly Hills. I'm sure the general consensus will be ":eek7 Put the crack pipe down buddy!"

America has it's weaknesses, like any other nation... but it's people, rich and poor, would never stand for it's demise. We're still talking about a wealthy, charitable and humane country, that still fights for other countries' freedom and well being, not a repressed nation of impoverished and uneducated people that do not know any better.

I think that if I have not tried, I have no right to complain. And I think trying means more than voting more than every four years. I am willing to accept that the threshold is different for each of us, but I don't respect the idea of moving without whatever you personally feel constitutes a serious and sustained effort to make change.

Technically, Iran is a democracy. They have elections and all that. The elected government even has some influence.
If the majority of the people there would consistently vote for liberal leaders, Iran would probably slowly change.

That pretty much sums it up. Republicans have learned quite well how to manipulate the masses through lies and media control and will not be happy until the Democratic party no longer exists.
They are a bigger threat to democracy than a terrorist could ever dream.

Ah well, if white trash and ghetto thugs think things are cool, I guess it's all okay.

America is becoming a wealthy, powerful nation with an unstoppable military machine, that shows no responsibility in using it. It is run by men, all of them unelected (even, but not limited to, the President) who are openly giving big business they have close connections to exclusive access to the financial opportunities created by a war they lied to start.

Technically, Iraq was a Democracy.

Edit: Actually, I mis-spoke. I should have said:

Officially, Iraq was a Democracy.

don't start with 'technically'

that's the sort of language theking uses to prove a point

things may be 'technically' (legally) something, but day to day may be something completely different

even if iraq was technical a democracy, we all know it was a dictatorship don't we?

getting bogged down into arguable detail means you miss the big picture of what's actually occuring

in an ideal set up, it seems to be good to be very 'portable' and have assets in several different countries

many 'elite' here have money offshore don't they?

This is how diluted Democrats are, they actually believe NO ONE voted for Bush! :1orglaugh

:1orglaugh !

I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.

Difference being that people can actually vote for pro-reform parties in Iran and those even win sometimes. (e.g. Khatami)

No I haven't said that...but then again "totalitarian betrayals of the rights" is your opinion and that of a small minority.

"The kind of country we should be so opposed to"...once again your opinion and that of a small minority.

Yep...one is free to disagree with the majority. Oh...I see...the 69% majority in the poll that favor the Patriot Act are uninformed but the 22% that think the Patriot Act goes to far...are the informed ones.

By the way how many letters have you mailed/faxed to your Congressman since President Bush has taken office and since 9/11...or do you even know your Congressman's name?

no - you were right first time - it was in fact a democracy

it's just saddam was really, really popular, and always got 100% of the vote

;-)

I guess what I mean is that I doubt the honesty of the claims of "Democracy" in Iran. However, I don't know a ton about that country, so I can't say with authority.

If it is a Democracy, then I think a homosexual should work for reform. If the personal danger became an issue, that would certainly count as "trying hard enough", in which case nobody can argue if they leave.

Bush got less votes than Gore...

fights for other countries freedoms? uh huh.. it seems to me only the anti-Bush crowd give a rats ass about other countries.

Didn't something like that happen with Bush?

Yes I believe what I said... That didn't insult me to admit that either.

not yet

2004 should be fun

why am I thinking of sideshow bob?

Still want a recount huh? Talk about denial.

Point being, people did vote for Bush.

This might give some useful info on Iran's weird little political system:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/619419.stm


Being homosexual bears the death penalty in Iran, but personal danger isn't really an issue... after all, you can just not have sex with anyone. But would that make leaving the country by gay men cowardice? Personally, I don't think so...

His brother, governor of the deciding state, told his Secretary of State to confirm Bush's electoral votes. When challenged, the conservative Supreme Court confirmed that decision. So, with a minority of the popular vote (legal and acceptable) and a forced result on the electoral vote, he became president.

well, if the choice is to be gay, or be shot ...

j/k!

Gore got more votes nationwide. The electoral system, however, is not based on the total number of votes.

I feel that an Iranian homosexual should try to change things, before leaving. If it is illegal to have gay sex, but not illegal to campaign to change that law, then I think it's a choice not forced. They can choose to change their country. Leaving instead of trying to make a change is betraying the rest of the homosexual community. Then again, the threat of death is pretty extreme. We have no such worries in the US, so we should still try to change the system, rather than moving.

I see your point, but the phrase 'flogging a dead horse' comes to mind

why not just get on with your life in a more liberal country ...

Because eventually, there will be no countries left moving forward. Because people in your home country, especially those without the money for an international move, will suffer or die. Because Democracy is undermined if people don't express and push for their beliefs.

Anyone that believes that the USofA is "not a repressed nation of impoverished and uneducated people that do not know any better" is wearing blinders. Currently, international human rights organizations are objecting to both our internal and foriegn policies, we are one of the largest debtor nations in the world and, well if you think our school system is healthy, you're comparing it to some third world banana republic. America's school system sucks hind titty, fyi.

And as far as "not knowing any better", the average american doesn't have a clue. The public has bread and circuses while Nero fiddles. I mean, americans are so clueless they actually beleive that the paper they have wadded in their pockets is real money!

Florida had a law in place prior to the Presidential election providing a deadline for a confirmation of the vote. It was this law that was enforced...and it was the Gore side that challenged a standing state law...long story short...Gores side lost. FYI there were multiple recounts done by various organizations...some partial recounts in some of the "disputed" counties and full state wide recounts...every single recount showed that President Bush had the majority of the votes.

All the available evidence in Iraq shows Saddam won by over 99% too.

quote:
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Originally posted by gothweb


Are you honestly saying that there could be no solution to the problems the US faces that don't resort to totalitarian betrayals of the rights we have been guaranteed?
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No I haven't said that...but then again "totalitarian betrayals of the rights" is your opinion and that of a small minority.


quote:
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I disagree with that estimation. And if it came to that, I think it would be better to risk further attacks, than to become the kind of country we should be so opposed to.
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"The kind of country we should be so opposed to"...once again your opinion and that of a small minority.


quote:
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As for disagreeing with the majority, it's a right in an democracy. The majority is often uninformed, especially when their government is lying to them. Part of democracy is the right to share your ideas, to bring others over to your way of thinking. And even if it wasn't about that, I still have the right to hold and defend a minority opinion.
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Yep...one is free to disagree with the majority. Oh...I see...the 69% majority in the poll that favor the Patriot Act are uninformed but the 22% that think the Patriot Act goes to far...are the informed ones.

By the way how many letters have you mailed/faxed to your Congressman since President Bush has taken office and since 9/11...or do you even know your Congressman's name?

So you are saying one should sacrifice his own happiness for the greater good? And not doing so is cowardice? Even if a person decides to do so based on the consideration that he values his own quality of life higher than that of others?

Yes.

Why cowardice? Selfishness, maybe, but cowardice?

I found it funny that reported on the news was comments from delegates from the WTO meeting in Cancun.

Delegates (*actual people involved in the political process*) compared dealing with the US now to dealing with the USSR in the 1980's

apparentely, the US team spent most of the time holed up in the hotel

it's one fucked up administration

and they're going to pull out all the stops to win the next election. I would put money on the fact, and when it comes to this I really don't believe they have a conscience.

and once they win the next election, they'll just keep going towards their goals to get rid of all social security (by basically bankrupting the Government according to some informed people - so there's no choice but to get rid of medicare, pensions...etc.) and grabbing for oil, more international military bases, less working with allies...

In a global economy, being politically isolated ain't clever

but someone forgot to tell Bush & Co that.

I know that... but it was said no one voted for him, which isn't true.

The difference between the US and other countries, the very reason it was created as a nation, was to protect our rights. I don't mind saying that there is a kind of country the US should be. Not from a moral perspective, even, but from a hypothetical perspective-- Which is to say, if you want to live up to your own standards, you have to do X. If the US wants to live up to its own standards, it has to remember the constitution.

I did not say everyone who agrees with me is informed, and that everyone who disagrees is uninformed. I do think that the difference in the numbers is influenced by the fact that far too many people are uninformed, or lied to.

No letters or faxes. I have only sent a few emails to my representatives in the last couple of years. All of them have expressed worried over Bush's policies.

Senator Judd Gregg (R)
Senator John Sununu (R)

Congressman Jeb Bradley (R)
Congressman Charlie Bass (R)

Unfortunately, it's going to take consistent application of my vote to make the difference there, given who my reps are.

Selfishness in the face of danger is cowardice. If you prefer the word selfishness, that doesn't bother me. The basic message is the same.