Hosting Question 95th Percentile VS. Average usage Billing. - GoFuckYourself.com

GotGauge · 09-04-2003, 07:38 AM

Pros and Cons on both billing methods please.

Looks like most hosting companies want to bill on the 95th%
on MBPS.

To me is seems just different ways to figure your bandwidth,
and the 95th % will show you use more (guessing), but those hosting companies usually charge less per MBPS.

Let me know what you know,
Aron

Jer · 09-04-2003, 07:42 AM

To me it looks like 95% bandwidth costs less per MBPS, but being billed average is cheaper.

Looking at your bandwidth stats for the last days/months is a good thing to make your choice.

Why · 09-04-2003, 07:44 AM

95%ile you get billed at a 45% higher rate then average.

so do the math

sync · 09-04-2003, 07:50 AM

This is a rather hard question, but I'll stick to the basics and simplify this problem.

For argument's sake we can say that:

95th Percentile = 95th Percentile
Average = 50th Percentile

This of course would assert the claim made earlier that Average bills on less Megabits, but 95th is billed at a lower price.

Now, let's focus this discussion to the consumer's end because the ISP's already know all they need to.

If your provider gives you access to MRTG stats you should use the Daily graph to determine which is a better option for you, the Dialy graph is not an approximation like the Weekly, Monthly, and Yearly graphs.

The reason providers charge on 95th is simple, the Internet has trends and speaking based of EST time there are peaks in traffic at 10AM-12PM and 6PM-8PM, since everyone is using bandwidth at these times this can cause providers to pay as much as 2x what they push on average. Since this traffic is generated by their customer's they pass the responsibility as they should back to the consumer but allow them to drop 5% of their highest usage, a provider is able to do this because their top 5% is dropped by their provider and so on until you reach the very top where people dont really pay for bandwidth but incur the costs of building and maintaining the networks that they have built.

So in conclusion, take your MRTG stats, get a price X on 95th and multiply it out and get a price Y on average and multiply it out, the result might suprise you, in most cases (intelligent ISPs) the price difference is negligble but existent, something around $200-500 on a $10,000 bill.

Nathan · 09-04-2003, 07:51 AM

No, you do not pay 45% more than average.

The point of 95% is to cut off the highest peaks from the bandwidth, from stuff like software downlaods and stuff like that. You get then billed on the remaining peak.

The question if one is better than the other depends on if you have highly fluctating traffic or not. If your traffic goes up high and down low often, then 95% is probably going to cost you a lot more than average. If it stays mostly the same, just has a few peaks, then its both very similar.

KC · 09-04-2003, 08:03 AM

Another factor is how much inbound vs. outbound bandwidth you have.

In the 95% you normally just pay for the higher of the two, (either inbound or outbound, but not both).. Average in + Average Out you pay for both..

For PayCounter traffic.. Being billed at the 95% is cheaper than paying Average in + Average out. For other's it's the other way around. It completely depends on your bandwidth usage.

- How consistent is your traffic?
- What is the ratio of inbound vs. outbound bandwidth?

webair · 09-04-2003, 08:04 AM

here ya go...it's alot but its accurate =)

Billing Methods Explained:

There are three common types of billing methods that IPPs generally use to bill their dedicated server customers; the "95th percentile", "bandwidth average", and "per gigabyte" based billing. All have their distinct advantages though we feel that the "95th percentile" method is the most balanced overall method.
Let's start with the "per gigabyte" based billing. Anyone familiar with "shared server" hosting is likely to be quite familiar with this type of billing. Quite simply, log files are kept of your web activity throughout the month and then at the end of the month you pay a specific charge for each gigabyte of data you transferred.

"per gigabyte" based billing usually includes both your incoming and outgoing data transfer -- so if you transfer 3000 gigabytes of outgoing transfer and 1000 gigabytes of incoming transfer then you are billed for a total of 4000 gigabytes of transfer.

The second common method of billing is "bandwidth capped". With this type of billing you select a bandwidth "cap" (usually in increments of 1 megabit per second) and you are restricted from transferring data beyond your "cap" amount. For instance, if you purchased a 20 megabit bandwidth cap then your web sites are free to transfer as much data as they need, up to 20 megabits per second. If you try to transfer beyond 20 megabits per second then your traffic is "slowed down" so that you cannot break the 20 megabit per second barrier.

"bandwidth average" based billing is usually for a "full duplex" network connection. This means that if you purchase a 20 megabit per second connection then you can transfer 20 megabits of incoming transfer and 20 megabits of outgoing transfer at the same time.

The "95th percentile" based billing is sort of a hybrid between the previous two billing methods. Throughout the month your incoming and outgoing bandwidth is graphed in five minute intervals. Every five minutes your transfer is totaled for the previous five minutes and an average transfer rate is derived. From that data a graph is created to show you your "real-time" bandwidth usage:

- Real-Time Bandwidth Graphs (updated every five minutes)

For example, if during the five minute interval you had 300 megabytes of outgoing transfer and 30 megabytes of incoming transfer your average outgoing transfer rate would be 8 megabits and your average incoming transfer rate would be 0.8 megabits. For reference, 8 megabits equals 1 Megabyte of data transferred every second (multiplied out for 300 seconds -- five minutes -- you get a total of 300 Megabytes of data transferred).

After the five minute samples are calculated the lowest of the two samples (usually the incoming data sample) is tossed out and the highest of the two samples (usually the outgoing data sample) is kept. This in effect gives you free incoming data transfer since the smaller of the data samples is tossed out completely.

At the end of 30 days we have 8,640 samples. At that time the top 5% of the samples (432 samples -- 36 hours worth) are tossed out. You are then billed on the highest remaining sample. This gives you 36 hours of transfer for free (as well as already having half of the samples tossed out). You get the "free" incoming bandwidth of "bandwidth valved" based billing as well as the burstability of "per gigabyte" billing. The best of both worlds.

"95th Percentile" versus "Bandwidth Valved"
The largest advantage of "bandwidth valved" billing is the predictable monthly costs. If you buy 20 megabits of bandwidth then you are charged for exactly 20 megabits of bandwidth.
There are, however, several drawbacks to "bandwidth valved" billing. The single largest drawback is the fact that you need to "buy to the peak". The traffic patterns for all web sites are filled with peaks and valleys. No web site in the world transfers a steady amount of bandwidth.

If, for instance, you have a web site that transfers around 8 megabits per second during the off-peak hours but bursts to around 20 megabits during the busy period of the day then you'll want to make sure you purchase 20 megabits if you're purchasing "valved" bandwidth. If you purchase less than 20 megabits -- say perhaps 15 megabits -- then your web sites will run noticeably slower during the peak times.

To make matter worse, when you purchase 15 megabits and your web sites are only doing 8 megabits in the off-peak times you are in effect paying for bandwidth that you are not using.

That leaves you in the situation where your web sites run slower during the peak times because you didn't purchase enough bandwidth and then you're paying for unused bandwidth in the off-peak times.

This is where the advantages of the 95th percentile billing shine. Because your bandwidth is not valved in any way, your web sites are free to burst to "full fast ethernet speed" during the peak times -- if it bursts to 20 or 25 megabits then that is what is sampled and recorded -- but during the off-peak times you'll only be paying for 8 megabits. You do not need to worry about having to "upgrade" your service just because you plan on increasing your usage later on in the month, and it takes the guess-work out of trying to figure out exactly how much bandwidth you really need.

Then, at the end of the month, your top 5% of the samples are tossed out. You get 36 hours of free transfer and you do not have to buy extra bandwidth just to sustain your peak times.

When it's all said and done, at the end of the month you may have had to purchase 20 megabits of "valved" bandwidth, but your 95th percentile may only be 13 megabits.

Combining Bandwidth Valving with 95th Percentile Billing
Looking for the predictability of valved bandwidth with the burstable connectivity of 95th percentile? No problem. All of our virtual servers have bandwidth valving capabilities built-in. If you have a web site that transfers between 10 and 20 megabits, for example, we can valve that virtual server at 20 megabits to insure that you never exceed the 20 megabit threshold. The billing will continue to be on the 95th percentile, so if at the end of the month your 95th percentile shows your bandwidth usage at 13 megabits you pay for only 13 megabits.
This gives you a virtual "ethernet pipe" and guarantees that your transfer will not exceed that amount -- just as with bandwidth valving -- along with the superior pricing model of the 95th percentile billing.

Doctor Dre · 09-04-2003, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GotGauge
Pros and Cons on both billing methods please.

Looks like most hosting companies want to bill on the 95th%
on MBPS.

To me is seems just different ways to figure your bandwidth,
and the 95th % will show you use more (guessing), but those hosting companies usually charge less per MBPS.

Let me know what you know,
Aron

When on you are 95th if you get a big peak like someone steal your bandwith or something you will get billed for a LOT LOT more . If you use like 5 time more BW for 4-5 days youre gonna pay for it like you used it for the whole month .

Well that's what I understand

My

PerfectionGirls · 09-04-2003, 08:26 AM

I can have $1000 a month swings in my bw, just based on one or two heavy traffic days. Its bs if you ask me. Is there anyone that offers consistant pricing? Let s say I use 300gigs of transfer a month. I give this number to a host for a quote. He coems back with $400.00 a month for that much usage. Is there anyone out there that can offer flat pricing?

Why · 09-04-2003, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by webair
here ya go...it's alot but its accurate =)

Billing Methods Explained:

ever get tired of explaining all that?

Why · 09-04-2003, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PerfectionGirls
I can have $1000 a month swings in my bw, just based on one or two heavy traffic days. Its bs if you ask me. Is there anyone that offers consistant pricing? Let s say I use 300gigs of transfer a month. I give this number to a host for a quote. He coems back with $400.00 a month for that much usage. Is there anyone out there that can offer flat pricing?

yes there are people who offer flat pricing.

GotGauge · 09-04-2003, 09:26 AM

webair,
Thanks Nice answer, that helped...

fletcher · 09-04-2003, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GotGauge
webair,
Thanks Nice answer, that helped...

If you think there's a possiblity you're going to peak over your average for that other 5% of the time (and with a paysite it's highly likely) it's cheaper to do average billing. You can easily get screwed with 95th percentile billing if you peak over your average more than once.

liquidmoe · 09-04-2003, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PerfectionGirls
I can have $1000 a month swings in my bw, just based on one or two heavy traffic days. Its bs if you ask me. Is there anyone that offers consistant pricing? Let s say I use 300gigs of transfer a month. I give this number to a host for a quote. He coems back with $400.00 a month for that much usage. Is there anyone out there that can offer flat pricing?

Look at it this way, 95th percentile ensures that the company you are hosted with has the resources to handle those spikes. So if you want to push 1Mbps for 90% of the month but peak with 10Mbps for two days, and you dont want to get billed for those small peaks why dont you ask them for a cap and watch your server slow to a crawl during those peaks, probably also the periods when you make the most cash.

But if you dont make the most cash during those peaks, then get the cap and stabilize your bill. Also dont forget that the 10Mbps peaks you run end up costing your hosting company money with their providers so it isn't B.S. its another cost for them. Or just go on a purely per gig plan.

SomeCreep · 09-04-2003, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PerfectionGirls
I can have $1000 a month swings in my bw, just based on one or two heavy traffic days. Its bs if you ask me. Is there anyone that offers consistant pricing? Let s say I use 300gigs of transfer a month. I give this number to a host for a quote. He coems back with $400.00 a month for that much usage. Is there anyone out there that can offer flat pricing?

300gigs for $400? Thats a rip off. Most hosts will give you an agreed number of GB per month and then just charge you for any overage. Overage is usually between $0.50 - 0.75 per gig.

GotGauge · 09-04-2003, 02:45 PM

anyone else?

PbG · 09-04-2003, 07:07 PM

Depending upon how much space and/or databases you need we could give you 300GB for approximately $100.00/month. Email [email protected] and we'll be happy to hook you up with a great deal.

Quote:

Originally posted by PerfectionGirls
I can have $1000 a month swings in my bw, just based on one or two heavy traffic days. Its bs if you ask me. Is there anyone that offers consistant pricing? Let s say I use 300gigs of transfer a month. I give this number to a host for a quote. He coems back with $400.00 a month for that much usage. Is there anyone out there that can offer flat pricing?

Snake Doctor · 09-04-2003, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KC
Another factor is how much inbound vs. outbound bandwidth you have.

In the 95% you normally just pay for the higher of the two, (either inbound or outbound, but not both).. Average in + Average Out you pay for both..

For PayCounter traffic.. Being billed at the 95% is cheaper than paying Average in + Average out. For other's it's the other way around. It completely depends on your bandwidth usage.

- How consistent is your traffic?
- What is the ratio of inbound vs. outbound bandwidth?

KC, your host is the only one I've ever seen that bills for inbound + outbound on average billing.

I don't think its a very common practice

Snake Doctor · 09-04-2003, 07:45 PM

On the 95th vs Average billing.....I'm a big fan of average billing.

If you have fairly consistent traffic and bandwidth usage then you can probably make out ok on 95th percentile.

I do TGP galleries, so my bandwidth fluctuates alot. Get a movie gallery listed on the hun and worldsex and I've burst as high as 70mbps.
Do that a few times a month and you end up paying for 70mbps for the whole month if you're billed on the 95th percentile. (Even though I only average 6-10mbps every other day of the month)

When you're billed on average you pay for exactly what you use, no more, no less....that's about as fair as it gets IMO.

PerfectionGirls · 09-04-2003, 07:55 PM

Quote:

300gigs for $400? Thats a rip off. Most hosts will give you an agreed number of GB per month and then just charge you for any overage. Overage is usually between $0.50 - 0.75 per gig.

Yeah... I know! Those are not real numbers either. I keep telling my host and they keep screwing with my bill. I use about 400gig for the paysites and about the same for our hosted galleries which are on a rackshack server.

I'm getting totally raped by my host. They have told me time and time again that they would give me a standard pricing structure. I bitch every month, they give me a discount to put a bandaide on it, then fuck me the next billing period. I've had enough.

They have great BW and decent tech support and pretty darn good customer service. All of which I am willing to pay a bit extra for, but this is out of hand.

Someone with great, dependable BW could sign me up for three servers tonight.

Brad Mitchell · 09-04-2003, 07:57 PM

I bill on average outbound, always have. In every example I've ever seen it is to the advantage of the client - especially if they do TGP posting.

Look at this guy that posts movie files on TGPs:

He peaks at upwards of 60 mbit but his billing on average is in the mid twenties.

He doesn't want his server capped or throttled, he wants high performance all the time so that he can handle demand when it's there.

Those that bill on average will charge more per MBPS and those on 95th will bill less per MBPS. Sometimes the overall difference is negligible, sometimes you will find a large savings with one over the other depending on how the hosts are priced. When you start talking about purchasing more than just a few megabit, buying on average can save you substantial money most of the time.

Cheers,

Brad

Snake Doctor · 09-04-2003, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SinEmpire
I bill on average outbound, always have. In every example I've ever seen it is to the advantage of the client - especially if they do TGP posting.

Look at this guy that posts movie files on TGPs:

He peaks at upwards of 60 mbit but his billing on average is in the mid twenties.

He doesn't want his server capped or throttled, he wants high performance all the time so that he can handle demand when it's there.

Those that bill on average will charge more per MBPS and those on 95th will bill less per MBPS. Sometimes the overall difference is negligible, sometimes you will find a large savings with one over the other depending on how the hosts are priced. When you start talking about purchasing more than just a few megabit, buying on average can save you substantial money most of the time.

Cheers,

Brad

That's very similar to my bandwidth graph, which is why I'm a big fan of average billing.
Most of the time the price per meg on average is double the price per meg on 95th percentile, but with that graph Brad posted the webmaster paid for 20mbps on average but would have had to pay for 60mbps at the 95th percentile.
That's 3 TIMES as much.

Snake Doctor · 09-04-2003, 09:11 PM

BTW Brad, a long time ago I started a thread looking for a dedicated server with a 10 meg line and you said it would be $1500.

If you would have taken the time to explain that it was 10mbps billed on 50th percentile and an uncapped line, I would have realized what a good deal that was.
Instead I compared that price to everyone else's 10mbps capped deal (big difference).

You should really take the time to let people know the differences in your billing model.....you've got some really good deals going there that most webmasters wouldn't think were good deals if they compared them to other host's pricing.

liquidmoe · 09-04-2003, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lenny2

That's very similar to my bandwidth graph, which is why I'm a big fan of average billing.
Most of the time the price per meg on average is double the price per meg on 95th percentile, but with that graph Brad posted the webmaster paid for 20mbps on average but would have had to pay for 60mbps at the 95th percentile.
That's 3 TIMES as much.

His highest peak is 64.0Mbps and they are very short lived peaks, his 95th wouldnt be 60, more likely it would be near 50 if not lower. Would be interesting if the 95th for that server was also posted to get a real look at avg vs 95th, because I have seen 50% differences between the two but rarely, usually the differences are much less.

Brad Mitchell · 09-04-2003, 09:12 PM

Well, I suppose it can only help to be very accurate in this thread, for educational purposes.

As that chart stands, it represents 28 megabit on average over the last 30 days. I don't know the exact figure that it would be on 95th because we don't calculate those on our graphs, but I think it's obvious looking at the chart that it's at least going to be in the 50's.

Brad

Moose · 09-04-2003, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lenny2

That's very similar to my bandwidth graph, which is why I'm a big fan of average billing.
Most of the time the price per meg on average is double the price per meg on 95th percentile, but with that graph Brad posted the webmaster paid for 20mbps on average but would have had to pay for 60mbps at the 95th percentile.
That's 3 TIMES as much.

Lenny you are sadly mistaken if you think his bill would have been 60.

It would have been under 40.

Brad Mitchell · 09-04-2003, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lenny2
You should really take the time to let people know the differences in your billing model.....you've got some really good deals going there that most webmasters wouldn't think were good deals if they compared them to other host's pricing.

I'm working on getting our MRTG graphs to show both 95th and average calculations. *I* actually want to see the figures, too. I've never billed on 95th. Everyone needs to remember that the reason for a host to bill on 95th and not 50th is so they can generate more revenue. And... that's OK - hosts have huge infrastructure costs and it takes a healthy revenue stream to provide good service.

In the end, I would guess that most hosts have very similar pricing when you compare 95th to 50th. If a customer has huge swings up in bandwidth, there is little doubt that average billing will be to their benefit. If someone trends in a tight hi/low pattern then the difference might be very slim.

Choosing a host should always be about more than price! The customer support and network performance are what really make or break a host. I always suggest that people take their time and ultimately go with their gut feeling on where they think will be the better home.

Cheers,

Brad

P.S. - SinHost's pricing is about to decrease shortly for many of it's plans! Increase quality... decrease price!

Moose · 09-04-2003, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SinEmpire

Everyone needs to remember that the reason for a host to bill on 95th and not 50th is so they can generate more revenue.

Cheers,

Brad

P.S. - SinHost's pricing is about to decrease shortly for many of it's plans! Increase quality... decrease price!

Brad this is a very irresponsible comment. And basically it shows you are full of shit . Assuming companys who charge on 95% are ripping people off and companys who charge on average are not is just plain lame. You know the price point difference between the two from respectable companys (in our undustry) are very much DIFFERENT .

Your a good guy..everyone loves you but blowng smoke up peoples asses doesn't cut it.

Brad Mitchell · 09-04-2003, 11:43 PM

Moose, you know that I like and have always respected you... but did you read that one sentence and NOTHING else that I said? Come on. Missing the part about how pricing is usually very similar? The part where I said that people shouldn't shop based on pricing alone? Missing the basic concept that 95th percentile isn't a measurement of total bandwidth that was used but rather a measurement of a client's near-peak utilization during a billing period?

Irresponsible, innacurate? Well, I suppose either interpretation is possible based on how you interpret everything that I'm saying. But full of shit? Give me a fucking break. Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed or what?

Obviously if a host has extremely low pricing per megabit for 95th percentile billing then all bets are off.

Fundamentally what I said is true: the purpose of 95th percentile is to measure costs associated with clients that have high bursts versus those that do not. The purpose is absolutely to measure and charge for peak utilization and nothing else. Conversely, average billing does no such thing. The metric that average billing is based on does not allow a host to easily pay himself for the bandwidth that he "has to have open" but can't ever actually sell.

Otherwise, every host would all bill on average because it comes closest to measuring what actual utilization was for any given period. Plus, the 'average' billing model is the easiest for clients to understand conceptually. I've never had a client inquire about hosting services that was surprised by a bill that was "on average" from his previous host - only inquiries that have been shocked by 95th percentile billing from their previous host.

Like I said, they're both valid business models. If anything, I'm at most marginally inaccurate. Conceptually what I'm trying to point out here is very similar to an analogy we could draw to everyone's water bills. Basically, we all get billed for the water that we use - much like average billing. If we were billed on 95th percentile for water, for many of us it would be like getting a bill based on running the sprinkler, dishwasher, washing mashine, shower and a faucet 95% of the time. LOL

Personally, I think billing on average definitely favors the client perspective - it sure as shit doesn't benefit the host. As we both know, all large hosts either buy fixed pipe or 95th percentile from their upstreams - even I don't buy on average. Show me a place in the country where I can buy 500 megabit or a gigabit on average billing and I'll move my hosting company there!

Why don't you go back and re-read my posts before you take what I've said out of context again. Or, after all this, do you still think that I'm blowing smoke up people's asses?

Brad

Chris · 09-05-2003, 01:29 AM

Snake Doctor · 09-05-2003, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moose

Lenny you are sadly mistaken if you think his bill would have been 60.

It would have been under 40.

My bad. I didn't study the graph that closely, I just went by what was posted in the thread.

With my server's MRTG however, the 95th percentile is usually 3 times as much as the average.

GotGauge · 09-05-2003, 08:00 AM

It would be Interesting to see one of the hosting companies post a MRTG graph on which they bill for 95th% and also tell what the average is....

Matt_WildCash · 09-05-2003, 09:35 AM

Trust me, we setup a capped 10 megabit server, peaked it for half the month at 10 megabits for 20 % of each day, and then did only 1-2 megabit on it for the rest of the month. And the 95% bullshit said 9.8 megabit using 95% percentile.

If I was on a 100 megabit burstable plan and doing 10 days of say 50 megabits and then the rest of the month at 0 my bandwidth bill would be for 50 megabits or very very close too, like 48 megabits.

If I'm on average bandwidth then I pay A LOT less, I do 50 megabit for half the month and 0 for the rest of the month, it averages out to 25 megabits.

95%tile is only for the hosting companies to RAM IT UP YOUR ASS and overcharge you. Don't ever use it unless you know your not going to peak or you know what your doing

Brad Mitchell · 09-05-2003, 11:43 AM

Anyone else?

webair · 09-05-2003, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GotGauge
webair,
Thanks Nice answer, that helped...

FYI we offer all of those bandwidth options mentioned, its entirely uup to the client which best suits their needs.

BradShaw · 09-05-2003, 01:17 PM

95th percentile can be manipulated 100 different ways to fuck you. You need to trust your host. I once had a host try to play with the #'s, figure out for yourself who.

JUSTB · 09-05-2003, 02:55 PM

At Candid Hosting we bill on average mbps out .
For the clients who prefer to be billed by gb they are also billed on outbound only.

09-05-2003, 11:01 PM

Read here also: http://www.svwh.net/products/95percentile.shtml

Ray@TastyDollars · 09-05-2003, 11:45 PM

True..well mostly.

No one seemed to metion that at 95th they charge about 50% less per MBPS than on average.

I pay about $75 per MBPS but im charged at 95TH. When I was shopping for a host last year they all wanted $140+ per MBPS if they would charge me on average.

I been on this plan for about 7 months and at $75 per MBPS @ 95TH I end up paying about .40 to .50 per gig, thats including my dedicated server.

Bottom line is, it all depends on what you pay per MBPS.

Honeyslut · 09-05-2003, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BradShaw
95th percentile can be manipulated 100 different ways to fuck you. You need to trust your host. I once had a host try to play with the #'s, figure out for yourself who.

The same one who calls me a liar ?

GotGauge · 09-08-2003, 01:42 PM

http://www.jupiterhosting.com

Pros? Cons?

(Don't tell Lensman) LOL

playa · 09-08-2003, 01:48 PM

If you spike to 50 meg for 7 days

then the next 23 days you average 10 meg

95th will fuck you in the ass hard

Just Mike · 09-08-2003, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GotGauge
http://www.jupiterhosting.com

Pros? Cons?

(Don't tell Lensman) LOL

They're are surprisingly flexible and really earn your business. I was impressed.

Hyde · 09-08-2003, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GotGauge
http://www.jupiterhosting.com

Pros? Cons?

(Don't tell Lensman) LOL

They bill by the 95th percentile.

I wish they could offer a billing solution where
you just pay for how many Gigs you use.

Jay3 · 09-08-2003, 02:34 PM

Well I use Jupiter and they are great, I suggest you ask for Poppy he is a great guy, knowledgable, and works hard to make things easy for you. Jupiter always answered all of my questions quickly and acurately. I just switched my server recently and I am very happy with them right now. They do bill at the 95th but I think that all this billing talk has gotten a little off base. You are right that if you use 50mgps for 10 days then nothing for the rest of the month you will get fucked, But who ever has traffic like that? Everyone try to remember that it is also your own responsibility to pick the right hosting plan and to manage your bandwidth. If you see you are going to go over for some reason (maybe you are growing at a rapid pace) or maybe you just decided to go for alot of TGP traffic, well hey thats on you as a webmaster to plan accordingly. Don't be an idiot and try to just barley get by. Get a plan that suits what you are doing, don't try to just get the lowest monthly bill get the plan that you need. And thats just my

socalcash · 09-08-2003, 02:51 PM

JUPITER ALL THE WAY!

09-04-2003, 07:38 AM	#1
GotGauge Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: USA Posts: 3,072	Hosting Question 95th Percentile VS. Average usage Billing. Pros and Cons on both billing methods please. Looks like most hosting companies want to bill on the 95th% on MBPS. To me is seems just different ways to figure your bandwidth, and the 95th % will show you use more (guessing), but those hosting companies usually charge less per MBPS. Let me know what you know, Aron __________________ ICQ 22264474 [email protected]

09-04-2003, 07:51 AM	#5
Nathan Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,108	No, you do not pay 45% more than average. The point of 95% is to cut off the highest peaks from the bandwidth, from stuff like software downlaods and stuff like that. You get then billed on the remaining peak. The question if one is better than the other depends on if you have highly fluctating traffic or not. If your traffic goes up high and down low often, then 95% is probably going to cost you a lot more than average. If it stays mostly the same, just has a few peaks, then its both very similar. __________________ "Think about it a little more and you'll agree with me, because you're smart and I'm right." - Charlie Munger

09-04-2003, 08:03 AM	#6
KC Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 1995 Posts: 2,417	Another factor is how much inbound vs. outbound bandwidth you have. In the 95% you normally just pay for the higher of the two, (either inbound or outbound, but not both).. Average in + Average Out you pay for both.. For PayCounter traffic.. Being billed at the 95% is cheaper than paying Average in + Average out. For other's it's the other way around. It completely depends on your bandwidth usage. - How consistent is your traffic? - What is the ratio of inbound vs. outbound bandwidth? __________________ Jupiter Hosting, Inc. Vice President, Business Development kc (AT) jupiterhosting.com

09-04-2003, 08:04 AM	#7
webair Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NYC, NY Posts: 8,531	here ya go...it's alot but its accurate =) Billing Methods Explained: There are three common types of billing methods that IPPs generally use to bill their dedicated server customers; the "95th percentile", "bandwidth average", and "per gigabyte" based billing. All have their distinct advantages though we feel that the "95th percentile" method is the most balanced overall method. Let's start with the "per gigabyte" based billing. Anyone familiar with "shared server" hosting is likely to be quite familiar with this type of billing. Quite simply, log files are kept of your web activity throughout the month and then at the end of the month you pay a specific charge for each gigabyte of data you transferred. "per gigabyte" based billing usually includes both your incoming and outgoing data transfer -- so if you transfer 3000 gigabytes of outgoing transfer and 1000 gigabytes of incoming transfer then you are billed for a total of 4000 gigabytes of transfer. The second common method of billing is "bandwidth capped". With this type of billing you select a bandwidth "cap" (usually in increments of 1 megabit per second) and you are restricted from transferring data beyond your "cap" amount. For instance, if you purchased a 20 megabit bandwidth cap then your web sites are free to transfer as much data as they need, up to 20 megabits per second. If you try to transfer beyond 20 megabits per second then your traffic is "slowed down" so that you cannot break the 20 megabit per second barrier. "bandwidth average" based billing is usually for a "full duplex" network connection. This means that if you purchase a 20 megabit per second connection then you can transfer 20 megabits of incoming transfer and 20 megabits of outgoing transfer at the same time. The "95th percentile" based billing is sort of a hybrid between the previous two billing methods. Throughout the month your incoming and outgoing bandwidth is graphed in five minute intervals. Every five minutes your transfer is totaled for the previous five minutes and an average transfer rate is derived. From that data a graph is created to show you your "real-time" bandwidth usage: - Real-Time Bandwidth Graphs (updated every five minutes) For example, if during the five minute interval you had 300 megabytes of outgoing transfer and 30 megabytes of incoming transfer your average outgoing transfer rate would be 8 megabits and your average incoming transfer rate would be 0.8 megabits. For reference, 8 megabits equals 1 Megabyte of data transferred every second (multiplied out for 300 seconds -- five minutes -- you get a total of 300 Megabytes of data transferred). After the five minute samples are calculated the lowest of the two samples (usually the incoming data sample) is tossed out and the highest of the two samples (usually the outgoing data sample) is kept. This in effect gives you free incoming data transfer since the smaller of the data samples is tossed out completely. At the end of 30 days we have 8,640 samples. At that time the top 5% of the samples (432 samples -- 36 hours worth) are tossed out. You are then billed on the highest remaining sample. This gives you 36 hours of transfer for free (as well as already having half of the samples tossed out). You get the "free" incoming bandwidth of "bandwidth valved" based billing as well as the burstability of "per gigabyte" billing. The best of both worlds. "95th Percentile" versus "Bandwidth Valved" The largest advantage of "bandwidth valved" billing is the predictable monthly costs. If you buy 20 megabits of bandwidth then you are charged for exactly 20 megabits of bandwidth. There are, however, several drawbacks to "bandwidth valved" billing. The single largest drawback is the fact that you need to "buy to the peak". The traffic patterns for all web sites are filled with peaks and valleys. No web site in the world transfers a steady amount of bandwidth. If, for instance, you have a web site that transfers around 8 megabits per second during the off-peak hours but bursts to around 20 megabits during the busy period of the day then you'll want to make sure you purchase 20 megabits if you're purchasing "valved" bandwidth. If you purchase less than 20 megabits -- say perhaps 15 megabits -- then your web sites will run noticeably slower during the peak times. To make matter worse, when you purchase 15 megabits and your web sites are only doing 8 megabits in the off-peak times you are in effect paying for bandwidth that you are not using. That leaves you in the situation where your web sites run slower during the peak times because you didn't purchase enough bandwidth and then you're paying for unused bandwidth in the off-peak times. This is where the advantages of the 95th percentile billing shine. Because your bandwidth is not valved in any way, your web sites are free to burst to "full fast ethernet speed" during the peak times -- if it bursts to 20 or 25 megabits then that is what is sampled and recorded -- but during the off-peak times you'll only be paying for 8 megabits. You do not need to worry about having to "upgrade" your service just because you plan on increasing your usage later on in the month, and it takes the guess-work out of trying to figure out exactly how much bandwidth you really need. Then, at the end of the month, your top 5% of the samples are tossed out. You get 36 hours of free transfer and you do not have to buy extra bandwidth just to sustain your peak times. When it's all said and done, at the end of the month you may have had to purchase 20 megabits of "valved" bandwidth, but your 95th percentile may only be 13 megabits. Combining Bandwidth Valving with 95th Percentile Billing Looking for the predictability of valved bandwidth with the burstable connectivity of 95th percentile? No problem. All of our virtual servers have bandwidth valving capabilities built-in. If you have a web site that transfers between 10 and 20 megabits, for example, we can valve that virtual server at 20 megabits to insure that you never exceed the 20 megabit threshold. The billing will continue to be on the 95th percentile, so if at the end of the month your 95th percentile shows your bandwidth usage at 13 megabits you pay for only 13 megabits. This gives you a virtual "ethernet pipe" and guarantees that your transfer will not exceed that amount -- just as with bandwidth valving -- along with the superior pricing model of the 95th percentile billing. __________________ ~ Webair Dedicated Cloud Servers™ ~ WEBAIR VSYS™ Virtual Hosting Platform ~ Superior CDN Network ~ ~ Managed Dedicated hosting Specialists ~ DISCOUNT DOMAIN NAMES! ~ WEBAIR FUSION IO MANAGED CLOUD SERVERS! ~ *ICQ:* 243116321 - *TWITTER* - @WEBAIRINC - E-Mail: [email protected]

09-04-2003, 08:26 AM	#9
PerfectionGirls Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: MI Posts: 4,484	I can have $1000 a month swings in my bw, just based on one or two heavy traffic days. Its bs if you ask me. Is there anyone that offers consistant pricing? Let s say I use 300gigs of transfer a month. I give this number to a host for a quote. He coems back with $400.00 a month for that much usage. Is there anyone out there that can offer flat pricing? __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

09-04-2003, 07:42 AM	#2
Jer God is Brazilian Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Brazil Posts: 10,601	To me it looks like 95% bandwidth costs less per MBPS, but being billed average is cheaper. Looking at your bandwidth stats for the last days/months is a good thing to make your choice.

09-04-2003, 07:44 AM	#3
Why MFBA Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: PNW Posts: 7,230	95%ile you get billed at a 45% higher rate then average. so do the math

09-04-2003, 07:50 AM	#4
sync Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: NY Posts: 204	This is a rather hard question, but I'll stick to the basics and simplify this problem. For argument's sake we can say that: 95th Percentile = 95th Percentile Average = 50th Percentile This of course would assert the claim made earlier that Average bills on less Megabits, but 95th is billed at a lower price. Now, let's focus this discussion to the consumer's end because the ISP's already know all they need to. If your provider gives you access to MRTG stats you should use the Daily graph to determine which is a better option for you, the Dialy graph is not an approximation like the Weekly, Monthly, and Yearly graphs. The reason providers charge on 95th is simple, the Internet has trends and speaking based of EST time there are peaks in traffic at 10AM-12PM and 6PM-8PM, since everyone is using bandwidth at these times this can cause providers to pay as much as 2x what they push on average. Since this traffic is generated by their customer's they pass the responsibility as they should back to the consumer but allow them to drop 5% of their highest usage, a provider is able to do this because their top 5% is dropped by their provider and so on until you reach the very top where people dont really pay for bandwidth but incur the costs of building and maintaining the networks that they have built. So in conclusion, take your MRTG stats, get a price X on 95th and multiply it out and get a price Y on average and multiply it out, the result might suprise you, in most cases (intelligent ISPs) the price difference is negligble but existent, something around $200-500 on a $10,000 bill.

09-04-2003, 09:26 AM	#12
GotGauge Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: USA Posts: 3,072	webair, Thanks Nice answer, that helped... __________________ ICQ 22264474 [email protected]

09-04-2003, 02:45 PM	#16
GotGauge Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: USA Posts: 3,072	anyone else? __________________ ICQ 22264474 [email protected]

09-04-2003, 07:45 PM	#19
Snake Doctor I'm Lenny2 Bitch Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: On top of my soapbox Posts: 13,449	On the 95th vs Average billing.....I'm a big fan of average billing. If you have fairly consistent traffic and bandwidth usage then you can probably make out ok on 95th percentile. I do TGP galleries, so my bandwidth fluctuates alot. Get a movie gallery listed on the hun and worldsex and I've burst as high as 70mbps. Do that a few times a month and you end up paying for 70mbps for the whole month if you're billed on the 95th percentile. (Even though I only average 6-10mbps every other day of the month) When you're billed on average you pay for exactly what you use, no more, no less....that's about as fair as it gets IMO. __________________ sig too big

09-04-2003, 07:57 PM	#21
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,812	I bill on average outbound, always have. In every example I've ever seen it is to the advantage of the client - especially if they do TGP posting. Look at this guy that posts movie files on TGPs: He peaks at upwards of 60 mbit but his billing on average is in the mid twenties. He doesn't want his server capped or throttled, he wants high performance all the time so that he can handle demand when it's there. Those that bill on average will charge more per MBPS and those on 95th will bill less per MBPS. Sometimes the overall difference is negligible, sometimes you will find a large savings with one over the other depending on how the hosts are priced. When you start talking about purchasing more than just a few megabit, buying on average can save you substantial money most of the time. Cheers, Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

09-04-2003, 09:11 PM	#23
Snake Doctor I'm Lenny2 Bitch Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: On top of my soapbox Posts: 13,449	BTW Brad, a long time ago I started a thread looking for a dedicated server with a 10 meg line and you said it would be $1500. If you would have taken the time to explain that it was 10mbps billed on 50th percentile and an uncapped line, I would have realized what a good deal that was. Instead I compared that price to everyone else's 10mbps capped deal (big difference). You should really take the time to let people know the differences in your billing model.....you've got some really good deals going there that most webmasters wouldn't think were good deals if they compared them to other host's pricing. __________________ sig too big

09-04-2003, 09:12 PM	#25
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,812	Well, I suppose it can only help to be very accurate in this thread, for educational purposes. As that chart stands, it represents 28 megabit on average over the last 30 days. I don't know the exact figure that it would be on 95th because we don't calculate those on our graphs, but I think it's obvious looking at the chart that it's at least going to be in the 50's. Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

09-04-2003, 11:43 PM	#29
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,812	Moose, you know that I like and have always respected you... but did you read that one sentence and NOTHING else that I said? Come on. Missing the part about how pricing is usually very similar? The part where I said that people shouldn't shop based on pricing alone? Missing the basic concept that 95th percentile isn't a measurement of total bandwidth that was used but rather a measurement of a client's near-peak utilization during a billing period? Irresponsible, innacurate? Well, I suppose either interpretation is possible based on how you interpret everything that I'm saying. But full of shit? Give me a fucking break. Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed or what? Obviously if a host has extremely low pricing per megabit for 95th percentile billing then all bets are off. Fundamentally what I said is true: the purpose of 95th percentile is to measure costs associated with clients that have high bursts versus those that do not. The purpose is absolutely to measure and charge for peak utilization and nothing else. Conversely, average billing does no such thing. The metric that average billing is based on does not allow a host to easily pay himself for the bandwidth that he "has to have open" but can't ever actually sell. Otherwise, every host would all bill on average because it comes closest to measuring what actual utilization was for any given period. Plus, the 'average' billing model is the easiest for clients to understand conceptually. I've never had a client inquire about hosting services that was surprised by a bill that was "on average" from his previous host - only inquiries that have been shocked by 95th percentile billing from their previous host. Like I said, they're both valid business models. If anything, I'm at most marginally inaccurate. Conceptually what I'm trying to point out here is very similar to an analogy we could draw to everyone's water bills. Basically, we all get billed for the water that we use - much like average billing. If we were billed on 95th percentile for water, for many of us it would be like getting a bill based on running the sprinkler, dishwasher, washing mashine, shower and a faucet 95% of the time. LOL Personally, I think billing on average definitely favors the client perspective - it sure as shit doesn't benefit the host. As we both know, all large hosts either buy fixed pipe or 95th percentile from their upstreams - even I don't buy on average. Show me a place in the country where I can buy 500 megabit or a gigabit on average billing and I'll move my hosting company there! Why don't you go back and re-read my posts before you take what I've said out of context again. Or, after all this, do you still think that I'm blowing smoke up people's asses? Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

09-05-2003, 01:29 AM	#30
Chris Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Location: icq: 71462500 Skype: Jupzchris Posts: 27,880	__________________ [email protected]

09-05-2003, 08:00 AM	#32
GotGauge Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: USA Posts: 3,072	It would be Interesting to see one of the hosting companies post a MRTG graph on which they bill for 95th% and also tell what the average is.... __________________ ICQ 22264474 [email protected]

09-05-2003, 09:35 AM	#33
Matt_WildCash Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,699	Trust me, we setup a capped 10 megabit server, peaked it for half the month at 10 megabits for 20 % of each day, and then did only 1-2 megabit on it for the rest of the month. And the 95% bullshit said 9.8 megabit using 95% percentile. If I was on a 100 megabit burstable plan and doing 10 days of say 50 megabits and then the rest of the month at 0 my bandwidth bill would be for 50 megabits or very very close too, like 48 megabits. If I'm on average bandwidth then I pay A LOT less, I do 50 megabit for half the month and 0 for the rest of the month, it averages out to 25 megabits. 95%tile is only for the hosting companies to RAM IT UP YOUR ASS and overcharge you. Don't ever use it unless you know your not going to peak or you know what your doing

09-05-2003, 11:43 AM	#34
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,812	Anyone else?

09-05-2003, 01:17 PM	#36
BradShaw Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: KB's trailer Posts: 7,840	95th percentile can be manipulated 100 different ways to fuck you. You need to trust your host. I once had a host try to play with the #'s, figure out for yourself who. __________________ Sig too big http://www.gofuckyourself.com/gfy_faqs.html Want to use a large banner in your sig??? Contact Eric about getting on as an advertiser - eric AT adult.com

09-05-2003, 02:55 PM	#37
JUSTB Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: tampa Posts: 1,740	At Candid Hosting we bill on average mbps out . For the clients who prefer to be billed by gb they are also billed on outbound only.

09-05-2003, 11:01 PM	#38
Alex Xe Guest Posts: n/a	Read here also: http://www.svwh.net/products/95percentile.shtml

09-05-2003, 11:45 PM	#39
Ray@TastyDollars www.TastyDollars.com Join Date: May 2002 Location: Montreal Posts: 6,797	True..well mostly. No one seemed to metion that at 95th they charge about 50% less per MBPS than on average. I pay about $75 per MBPS but im charged at 95TH. When I was shopping for a host last year they all wanted $140+ per MBPS if they would charge me on average. I been on this plan for about 7 months and at $75 per MBPS @ 95TH I end up paying about .40 to .50 per gig, thats including my dedicated server. Bottom line is, it all depends on what you pay per MBPS. __________________ The nets best interracial and cuckold site The nets hottest teen site ICQ me: 161 375 873

09-08-2003, 01:42 PM	#41
GotGauge Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: USA Posts: 3,072	http://www.jupiterhosting.com Pros? Cons? (Don't tell Lensman) LOL __________________ ICQ 22264474 [email protected]

09-08-2003, 01:48 PM	#42
playa Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: atlanta, GA Posts: 6,432	If you spike to 50 meg for 7 days then the next 23 days you average 10 meg 95th will fuck you in the ass hard

09-08-2003, 02:34 PM	#45
Jay3 Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: San Diego California Posts: 246	Well I use Jupiter and they are great, I suggest you ask for Poppy he is a great guy, knowledgable, and works hard to make things easy for you. Jupiter always answered all of my questions quickly and acurately. I just switched my server recently and I am very happy with them right now. They do bill at the 95th but I think that all this billing talk has gotten a little off base. You are right that if you use 50mgps for 10 days then nothing for the rest of the month you will get fucked, But who ever has traffic like that? Everyone try to remember that it is also your own responsibility to pick the right hosting plan and to manage your bandwidth. If you see you are going to go over for some reason (maybe you are growing at a rapid pace) or maybe you just decided to go for alot of TGP traffic, well hey thats on you as a webmaster to plan accordingly. Don't be an idiot and try to just barley get by. Get a plan that suits what you are doing, don't try to just get the lowest monthly bill get the plan that you need. And thats just my __________________ <A HREF="http://www.contentlotto.com/index.php?account=jay3"><IMG SRC="http://www.contentlotto.com/images/contentlottobutton.gif"></A>

09-08-2003, 02:51 PM	#46
socalcash Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: SoCal Posts: 323	JUPITER ALL THE WAY! __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.