150 razors

Can somebody please start a new thread with the conclusions from this one?

I can't read through all of this.:)

well, have you ever tried to promote a site without affiliates? Im doing it now... You start by being lised everywhere you can (TGPs)... (paid, free, etc..) You can do it another time at the same places.. and after the 3rd time.. you really see your sales dropping (saturation)

Then there's some banner placement on some big sites, exit traffic... You are then good for another month or 2... and thats it... Your site is then nearly dead... (saturation) Im guessing that saturation with Affiliates will come MUCH later... since they'll have tireless gallery submitters, aff. with free site with sometime SE traffic... and you even sometime even have people with mainstream sites promoting you..

I dont know how quiet is doing it, what is his other sources of traffic but if hes selling an ebook about it...im a buyer! :1orglaugh

mmm, shouldn't be to hard for a sponsor that uses CCBILL to cheat/shave, but on the other hand it would be easier to detect.

I guess an i-f-r-a-m-e on the tour with another ccbill affil code url would do the trick?

On the other hand its possible that CCBILL protects against this? (by not overwriting a cookie very recently set)

Anyone tested this?

And if its really detected, it would be black on white proof that this sponsor really shaves since the sponsor somehow needs to get another (read: his own) affilcode into that CCbill cookie before the surfer hits the CCBILL signup page.

the final concusion is this.. which ever sponsor makes you the most sales is best to stay with, dont listen to other ppl 1:15 ratios causes im sure sponsors can bullshit them stats on you as well, ive seen it done, if you feel your working too hard and not making enough than move on, if an sponsor is smart enough they wont shave much to keep you but than again if they got webmasters coming and going Im sure they cant give a fuck if you leave and shave the shit outta you.

only thing that ever bugged me is how this one person would mess my stats up large never a balance for me to work with so i never knew what to do to make my conversions better. but in the end i made mad sales with them and couldnt care less how much they shaved.

I'm quite aware of how to do it right :)

lets just say i made an affiliate program that converted 1:5 and i paid out 30 bucks a sale, but i would shave you guys and you would only make 1:30, means i would shave you 5 sales and you make 1, would you care?

would you not be happy making 1:30?

point is im sure if a sponsor is converting very well they will take advantage to themselves, and payout what webmasters EXPECT to make.

He sure isn't going to expose any of his sponsors cause they won't pay him so stop asking :)

still not the point.. say you worked at a job for 30$ an hour.. you got there at 8 am and worked until 5 pm.. you went to get your paycheck and you only were paid from 8am till 2 pm.. would you still be happy with the 30$ an hour?

I go to a job and the boss makes 50-100 bucks an hour to have me doing some labour contrustion job and i make 12 bucks an hour, yeah ive been there done that.

12 bucks is all i expect to make.

Well now, if you were told you'd be paid 30/hr for a job that was really worth no more than 20/hr, you'd probably realize that something was not right wouldn't you?

LOL the way I see it.. no matter what we say they will think whatever they want.

Damned if that doesn't sum it nicely.

how you compared this to a time base statement makes no sense.

ah common, you need to share some tips.. dont be like that Quiet guy!! :1orglaugh

whats the alternative sources of traffic? Not SE!? Even getting 5000 of daily SE hits might get you max. 5 sales... on a good day!

exactly.

It's crazy how many times this topic comes up.

Thats why I always say get to know who you do biz with . Pic up the phone or meet everyone at the shows.

If someone has an affiliate program for webmasters they should also have the support.

We treat every webmaster the same in our program. big or small
they are all Pornkings...

Hell if you send me traffic and you think I'm shaving call me up anytime. And we can go over your traffic and stats and figure out whats wrong.

:2 cents:

Rog has always been helpful... I remember when I was looking over our exits and had built a custom on to promote PK... when it was not performing that great, Roger took the time to look over it and offer suggestions to help attract more customers. A simple line of text like "Join for $1" helped change things around on that particular exit. :thumbsup

Soo true. Everyone needs to ask themselves one thing...

Got rice bitch?

Sometimes its as simple as that.

Put ($1 for a full month) and I bet it will do even better. LOL

Wording things a certain way helps alot depending on what type of traffic it is. etc

i was having an interesting conversation with a fried of mine on the phone last night about this same topic, is it not illegal to tell someone you will pay them on EVERY join and not do it?

they cancel you for violating thier TOS so they dont have to pay you, but they dont even life up to it....


TIME FOR A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT! who should we go after first?

i have been counting my hits out for a very long time, and its amazing how off some sponsors hit counting is

my solution....

divide how many hits you sent to them from your server, by the amount on the check.

whoever is giing you the most per click is worth sending more traffic to. whoever is sending you the least is either shaving harder or thier sites just dont convert.

http://www.adultwebmastery.com/aliensmoke3.jpg

And the thread goes on.
6 Miles and runnin.

This is exactly why we don't work with sponsors who pay per free trial or $35 per sign up, they have to shave to make money. We stick to sponsors with great rev share programs.

I would rather have 60% 0f a once only $160.00 sign up any day or even a $100.00, $ 60.00 or $25.00 as with Busty 2.com. Or one of the other revshare sponsors we promote.

So far we have never had any reason to suspect any sort of shaving with these guys.

Cindy xx:2 cents:

Send you traffic to BOYBUCK$

the only thing we shave is . . . . .our boys !

You get paid directly by Ibill/CC Bill


:)

Um, a 160, 100 or 60 dollar join is just asking for a credit or a cancel, hell I'm not sure the 160 thing even exists, it would never get past IPSP scrub in most cases.

Test them and see how much % the fuckers shaves.

It's like if you see a lame sponsor like bigplayers.com giving 50$ for a trial you know that a lot of ur signups are going to be shave so don't use them.

What is the difference in the traffic being sent to the sponsor by the two affiliates? Does the one being shaved hard have better quality traffic?

Someone else posted a reasonable explaination, in that they go on a surfer habbit deal.

Sponsor code A - Surfer retains for 4 months
Sponsor code B - Surfer retains for 2 months

1) So Sponsor Code A gets shaved to match sponsor code B.
Half as many joins count?

or

2) Sponsor feels Code A is worth more since members stay so he gets shaved less then code B who doesn't retain and maybe will take the hint that 1/5000 ratio he should move his traffic elsewhere.

umm, if you were sending really really bad traffic, anyone with a brain woud just come and tell you to take your shit elsewhere.

That doesn't mean you don't shave. You can count ALL clicks but shave 25% of the sales on ALL accounts so there's no difference from an account to another.

He DID post a proof. ie: STATS

Naming sponsors don't prove anything. So, stop asking, dumbasses :1orglaugh

If someone is paying $20 or $25 a signup, it means they probably don't have to shave........but it doesn't mean they won't shave.

I had this discussion with a friend yesterday who was talking about paying $20 per trial and giving access to the processor stats to "prove" there was no shaving.
The point I made was that there are still going to be people who think you shave and still people who will accuse you of shaving.
They could just say you have a script that doesn't pass the reseller id to the processor for a certain % of the joins, so even though the processor stats match yours, you're still shaving.

Its a similar situation to when I was selling cars, and the customer wanted me to knock another $1000 of the price, but I was only a few hundred over invoice and couldn't do it.
I'd bring out the invoice and show it to them and they wouldn't believe it was the "real" invoice.

No matter what the sponsor shows you, the processor stats, screenshots of their own admin, some of you will still think you're being cheated.

There are companies out there right now offering to "audit" sponsors for webmasters, and already everyone is assuming that these companies have been "paid off" by the sponsors being audited to give a good report.

The point I'm making is you'll never know for sure if you're being shaved, and IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU ARE BEING SHAVED.
If a sponsor credits me one signup per month and pays 10K per signup, or the sponsor credits me 1000 signups for the month and pays me $10 per....at the end of the month I still make 10K.

Send your traffic to the place that sends you the biggest check, who gives a fuck how they calculate the numbers to get to the total.

:2 cents: :2 cents:

Haha, same thing here. I had a new account every 3-4 weeks. Have about 12 accounts overall at ARS, did not promote them in 2 years.

Yes, but you never SEE the real invoice, you see the invoice with all the costs added like electricity, receptionist and other non commission employees pays added. You'll never see a real car invoice.

Also, back not too far they used to have multi-invoices and show you different ones so they could get what profit they could squeeze out of you.

I'd not want to compare porn to selling cars since car dealers rip the shit outta people. (Anyone who's sold them knows what they do with used cars holy shit)

This thread has become pointless and mute. Shaving or not shaving. Does it really matter? There's nothing anyone is going to do about it anyway. The cheaters will always find a way to cheat people.

Choker obviously isn't going to share his test results despite all the requests to do so.

So just continue to trust no one and you'll be fine.

I don't understand why Choker doesn't do what he did with the traffic brokers. List who he's sending hits to and what each is reporting for hits received / signups. How could any program sue over this as he is just posting the results of his traffic being sent. The programs that convert will stand out and the ones who don't will show nice 1/5000 ratio's.

Send me some hits Choker! www.voyeurcam.com

Sigh sigh and sigh again. I am not the one being shaved. I'm the one getting 90% of my hits counted. It is buyers who buy hits to their affiliate accounts that are getting shaved. One more time.............

I send 10k hits to a sponsor under my affilate codes. 9k are recorded. I send the traffic thru my CTTS script.

A buyer buys from me and gets 10k hits sent to the EXACT same sponsor under his affilate codes. I send the traffic thru my CTTS script. 60% of his traffic gets counted.

This is not from just one sponsor, this is from at least 12 different ones, all very big. Hell one buyer even bought traffic to 2 different sponsors. Same results from both.

I am not going to drop names simply because if I drop any name here in any shape, even if I say "joeblow is my best sponsor and does not shave", then it will be percieved by many as who I am refering to. I did not start this thread to drop names. I started it because this is what my test has revealed. If you want to physically see the stats, it's not going to happen. You can either believe me or not. What reason do I have to lie about this??

Give up Choker, you can't win.

Yeh we all get what you're saying. The sponsors you tested are alledgely shaving your traffic clients but not you.

We believe you. No one is saying you're a liar.

So why can't you post the test results to reveal who is doing that so webmasters can be informed and either make a judgment or make their own tests on these sponsors.

What the fuck Choker. In essence, what you're doing to everyone is saying you guys are getting seriously screwed over, I have tests showing who the culprits are but I'm not gonna tell you who's reaming you.

I'm sorry Choker but protecting thieves is fucking bullshit to the max and a total disservice to webmasters working their butts off around here to grow their business.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Because he is either not 100% confident in his tests or worried that he will be set to the max shave settings...

in fact he probably contacted all those sponsors already to get them to 'shave someone else instead' or be exposed LOL

and i guess creating enemies overnight with several large companies in the biz is wise...

getting sued by multiple companies for dropping their names here is fuckign bullshit also eh?

I think it's enough to know that it's being done, he has proof ( just like many of you guys posting here do also, but dont drop names)

for on the pay sites and all this shaving messs i am kind of new but isnt this a way to keep them from shaving ? for when they handle it all you cant shave , or am i wrong there as well

In what book did you read that or Where does it say so on Ccbill/Ibill/Epoch/AnyOther billing site that it is impossible to shave?

I'm not using Choker's traffic.. but what do we've got?

1. He says that when he sells traffic to someone using their affiliate code the traffic turns out to be shit
2. He start 'testing' it himself and says "they shave!"
3. He won't get their names, neither does he post a screen dump of this test without the sponsorname


Can't it just be that Choker SOLD traffic with peoples affiliate code and that turned out bad for those buyers and this way he's trying to make himself look good (they did it they did it.. it wasn't me)

Just my :2 cents:

Getting sued? If someone is going to get sued it'll be the thieving sponsors. In fact if what select ones are doing can be fully investigated documented and verified in a professional way on a mass scale conspiracy as he's stating with auditing investigators and they are in fact using selective discrimination to deliberately defraud webmasters you're into some highly lucrative lawsuit territory. You could bury some of the worst thieves financially in a heartbeat.

There's fortunes to be made from lawsuits as we've all seen recently. Juries typically have no mercy on thieves.

One of my attorneys nailed Exxon in a class action lawuit for cheating its dealer network out of just a couple pennies per transaction. They settled for over $500 Million.

:1orglaugh

That'd be great, but it wont happen by spilling their names here right now before a case has been launched. Why spoil the surprise and give their legal worms a head start.

Holy shit someone who has a clue!

This thread has become long, but not pointless. Shaving I believe is a big issue. Maybe several long and informative threads on the topic will make a sponsor hesitate. Maybe a webmaster will become a little wiser and start using tools to test spnsors. Maybe we'll all learn ways to slow down the cheating as the methods are revealed.

I've test bought memberships more than once to check a sponsor. That test of one buy per-sponsor suspected didn't prove much at all whether I got credit or not. A counter on hits sent might prove more.

You can know in your gut that you're getting shaved, but little you can do. Maybe we need another thread or two and sub divided the topic a bit. But its high time light is brought to the issue.

I've asked more than one sponsor - what's up with my account? That had mixed results. In some cases - all of a sudden conversions went up significantly (for awhile) and in other cases not.

I think shaving hurts the sponsor more than they realize. If I can get better conversions with another sponsor for what ever reason, guess what? And I finally have enough traffic to make a small difference.

A trade organization to "police" affiliates and sponsors on cheating issues in addition to lobbing congress and doing other things trade organizations do is past over due. This subject has come up before, like at Internext. Problem is, nothing seems to happen. I doubt if a comment in this thread will make the difference... BUT bring it up enough times and somethig might happen.

For Chokers part, he does all a favor by attracting attention to the subject - agree with his method or not.

Thanks GFY - for the forum to have the debate...