I think you should expose them. Shaving = cheating/scamming in my eyes

Werent you the one trying to pay like 80 per signup?

Choker - What scripts ya using to count your hits out anyways?

I think it does matter..

Sponsors count in differant places..

PD counts at the front door.. Others count 2nd page and some even count on the join!

I see what your saying.. I just don't think that sponsors will favor on a per webmaster basis..


But.. I speak for my own company. It's on auto pilot.

hey jason. im johnny, i met you at the ducks game that time. talked to you over at holios the other week. do you have an email or icq so we can talk?. i wanna ask you about your sites.

$84 to be exact.

60% of all transactions. (Primary & Crosses)

Anything on http://porndollar.com/support.html will do. :)

He's right. I discovered this about 4 yrs ago with ARS...i used to have different accounts with them for different tgp's etc..and i began to notice a trend when ever i first signed up for a new account i was averaging 1:100 then after about 2 weeks it would be 1:600 so i would get a new account and it would be back to 1:100.

It was kinda funny to look back at all my accounts i had...the first one i signed up with was at 1:5000 the next 1:1200 the next 1:800 and all the way down the line to the newest one at 1:100

They all do it, they will all deny it, but they all do it. Anyone paying 40 dollars a signup is scamming someone , either it be the surfer or the webmaster... someone's getting fucked

LOL, that's a good question man. I have my own scripts that I use for this. I made it so every gallery, every page that sends to a sponsor, sends the hits to my script. The hit is sent to my script then redirected to the sponsor. I made sure I can change in real time the sponsor url the hit goes to. This script gives me full stats, raws/uniques/ referring urls everything. It has helped me determine what sponsors are realy counting my hits in and who is not. I am going to get my coder on a free version of this script right now, so anyone can download, install it and use it.

how do we know its not ur script counting wrong? do u count uniques or raw?

Quick question would a webmaster program only count it as in HIT for the affiliate if they can put a cookie in the surfers browser.... perhaps this is reason figures vary.

Im insulted that u assume everyone shaves

50 shaved signups

Hay Choker, send some of that traffic my way!

CCbill tracks and handles our payouts!

Traffic Hits + To CCBill + Signups + CCBill Payouts = No Worries!


:thumbsup

|
|
|
|
|
|
|
V

It amazes me that this isn't patently obvious to everyone.

We all want to know which sponsor this is. What does it matter to tell us? We have to end this shit. If someone has traffic it will be you. Do the big Choker shaving test and expose them all. I prefer getting paid $25 per signup without shaving instead of $35 or $40 being shaved.


We will love you for this :)

Nice shit dude.

I will use your program on my new site.

Let´s make some money.


Dude can you add me on icq 20231065...
Im kind of cunfused about the signup part :)

Is not your everyday ccbill merge fields :)

It counts everything. I know it is accurate because I have ran the hits thru a second script coded in C and written by a different coder. I am not saying every sponsor shaves. I am simply laying out my results here for everyone to see. If it's not proof of global widespread shaving to you, then that's fine. It is to me. The "holy grail" proof of sponsor shaving is pretty elusive, except for the occasional situation like where someone found and posted some sponsors admin where the shaving controls were in plain view.

What's the use of telling us this without coming up with some sponsor names you are sure of they shave.

If no one is telling eachtother who's scamming us they will continue to excist, grow and more programs will start shaving because hey... no one bothers to tell a sponsor is shaving.

IF WE DON'T UNITE NOW THEY SOON ALL SHAVE 80%.

Damn.. your targeted adult paysite traffic converted 1:1400 for you? eek

And you cant send the "exact" same 10k traffic.. its always different people.. it doesnt meen 1 is getting shaved and 1 is not.. its like saying you rolled a dice and you hit 7 twice in a row.. and the other 12 people didnt.. it doesnt mean anything..

My though exactly.

Why even start a thread about this if you won´t expose them like the cheaters they are?

Is this just turning out to be another drama thread?

nobody shaves
its a myth

:glugglug

Hince the dilema. What is considered "proof" of sponsor shaving? I am not about to go on record saying I think joeblow is cheating based on these results. It would not stand up in a court, so why slander someone? I'm just saying that my results lead me to conclude that 95% of the big sponsors are shaving one way or another. I suggest that everyone run all their hits thru their own script instead of sending it to the sponsor directly. Trust but verify.

Ya ever wonder why you never see anyone using ccbill paying 40 dollars a signup? Ill tell ya why, cuz they cant manipulate the stats and signups that you're actually getting.

I challange ANY and ALL sponsors paying on per sign up to use ccbill an let their affilates signup directly thru ccbill and give them $30- 40 a signup.

My :2 cents:

In my opinion, what Choker did is a strong indication that shaving occurred! If he named names and printed the reports, would it be good enough for a court of law? Not an attorney, but I doubt it. Chances are he?d get sued, who knows?

What this industry needs is some organization. Like a trade association with the resources to do a fraud investigation and to do other things like lobby congress or come to the aid of a webmaster in legal trouble with the feds......

If you had enough $ to do the real fraud investigation with enough to take to court, you wouldn't be the affiliate, you'd be the sponsor... Proof would have to be multiple signups that you could show you didn?t get credit for ? with credit card billing statements etc.

honestly i dont see the point for someone to list a couple of sponsors that they shave, when the majority of PPS do so.

Want action? Collect evidences, get a good lawyer and sue them. I'm pretty much sure we're gonna see at least one such case within 2004. It's the best timing from every point of view.

cheers

At $7 per k, well anyone can do the math on that.

Anyone can take my results anyway they want, that's fine with me. I am a number cruncher, it is one of the few things I do very well. Give me a few, I will show you detailed results of another test I am currently running.

Unfortunately many paysite owners setup their business model around shaving. Many PPS sponsors claim they pay high amounts of money per signup - be it free, trial or monthly signup - to entice the webmaster.

Time and time again, the silly webmaster will look at the $40/signup ad (just an example) and be blinded and get sucked in, shoving away doubt what goes behind the closed doors - for the sponsor to be able to pay such high amounts from a cheap signup.

This is an old story that comes back again and again - yet most webmasters never learn.

Tired of getting screwed? See Sig. We report all hits/uniques that come to our door and double-track partner IDs with URL vars and cookies for 60 days! - Fair is Fair - You sent the surfer - You should get your cut!

This biz should be run like any other biz - and trust and honesty is #1 - to us, anyway.

I can think of ways of shaving even using ccBill. For example on free hosted galleries, just put the wrong affiliate ID on the gallery or change it after the gallery is up...

I bet some are more creative than me...

You're right...but why not just offer 40 a signup and heard all the sheep in?

Start using partner deals people :)

Some of those $40 sponsors use ccBill and iBill. I know there will be a flame on iBill. And I still suspect even with ccBill... Geeez if ya send 10K quailty hits for zip, something isn't right.

The most interesting thing in this thread is that so many failed to read and understand his initial post before replying. The rest of the thread is either pure BS, pure conjecture or stuff that anyone who's been in this business for 5 mins should have figured out for themselves.

Problem is true or false, arguing about it on boards proves and resolves nothing. If it's a concern all you can really do is as someone mentioned - open your own site up then you know what's happening to the traffic and signups. If you really feel you're being shaved use someone else. For most niches there's plenty of choices and however high the % may be not everyone shaves so if you look hard enough you will find someone that YOU think doesn't.

I've never quite understood why so many think that means no shaving. Greed is greed and if a sponsor wants/needs more money they could shave that too whether using billers stats or not. Of course on the flip side that doesn't mean they are either.

A final thought from me on this - the results to the affiliate are much the same but many sponsors may not be shaving 'directly'. Especially on high volume sites just a minor bug or two in the stats software will produce much the same effect. And it does sometimes happen. Again on the flip side it can also mean credit for joins that you haven't made or that have never even existed.

Here's an idea, let's see if the sponsors can dump their reseller programs and make as much money as they do now.

My money says yes.

I wouldn't call it a total waste if it leads to action. Like a trade organization.. I chnage sponsors and try to find who works out best in all regards for my sites. BUT, delivering 10K hits on that tour page still takes some effort on my part. Its awhile before I find out I've wasted my time and traffic. Traffic = $ if directed to the place.

It would be great to open up and name names. To do that really takes hard proof, even though you know in your gut you've been ripped. I've learned the hardway, some sponsors not to use. It would nice to know who not to try next...

This don't compute, traffic were they going 2 get it. BUY it???

I hope not, what a depressing thought. If there is no concrete evidence, I'll choose not to believe that :)

You don't really think that without affiliates there would not be traffic do you?

The sales will always be there, the method of getting them is bound to change, that much I can pretty much promise you...

What action is that? Choker himself admits his 'proof' is not solid enough to chuck accusations about. Apart from that all that has and will happen in this thread is for the most part baseless accusations and possibly attacks on companies through peoples own ignorance.

Whether or not shaving is common place many of the accusations on boards are purely down to peoples inability to grasp basic maths and how probability and patterns in it work and/or their belief in all the (for the most part) bullshit posts people make about their ratios. While stats like 1-200 are possible from TGP traffic they are a HUGE exception rather than the norm and most posts claiming that sort of ratio are pure BS. Unfortunately many people believe it then cry thief when they can't do the same.

I think the problem lies in how sponsor count hits...
No, I don't mean raws, uniques, 2nd page clicks etc...
I mean, when does a click get counted.
If someone clicks on a link to a sponsor site and then ( for some reason ) closes the site within 3 seconds ( before it loaded ), then is it counted or not...?
I think, the answer is no.
People on dial-up may even close the site after 8 seconds, but if only 15% of a paysite had loaded, then the click may not be counted....