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FIDDY 1 :helpme

Deck of cards

yes, the equation is simple

intellectual ability = political views - religious beliefs

Haha. THAT'S funny :-)

Siskel sez ... :thumbsup
Ebert sez ... :thumbsup

Siskel speaks to you from the beyond???

John Edward was my mentor.

:)

absolutely "YES"

Absolutely. Since one's beliefs are most often not single points, but rather logical webs connecting numerous small points, the strenth of the web (that is, logical consistency between the different "threads", or rather relations and arguments) most certainly indicates intelligence.

Ofcourse, there are always a number of base points which were created through education, upbringing, culture, time, etc., but what one does with those gives a fairly good indication of their intelligence. In fact, I believe this to be a lot more reliable than IQ tests.

What would you conclude about the "general intelligence ability" of someone that is a pro-capital punishment, Muslim?

Can you identify any beliefs of you own that if switched would make you more intelligent?

Fuckin'-A, Colin. :1orglaugh First, you took my Anne Frank line that I wanted to post earlier today, and now you've cut me off at the knees again on this one. :BangBang:

I was going to give him the political party and denominational (or lack of) info of 3 of my friends and throw in their views on abortion and ask him to tell me which one is the Mensa member who made a 1600 on the SAT. :Graucho

Did the Republican pro-abortion friend have the 1600?

I thought this was gonna be an Arnold joke, until I saw the 1600 part. (cause you'd have to knock about half of that off)

Ahh, but who's more intelligent?
The person who joins Mensa, or the person who laughs at them and turns them down?

Not enough information.

For those who believe can get an idea of someone's general intellectual ability from one's political views or religious beliefs how can it be done? Wouldn't most people just consider those whose beliefs are most similar to theirs to be the most intelligent?

How do you consider time in the equation? Weren't many of the geniuses of yesterday slave-owners and Bible thumpers?

'geniuses of yesterday'

nuff said.

the way i like to think about religion is the idea of the 'meme'.

A meme is basically an idea that is transmitted through society and subject to the pressures of natural selection.. Those ideas that are able to adapt, propagate, crush competing memes will do well

Religion is an example of a meme, it is able to propagate (e.g. lets go convert the natives) or we'll pass the idea on to our offspring.. It is also able to adapt, for example in catholicism Hell used to be all fire and brimstone, but now it's more 'an apartnet from God'. It is also able to crush competing memes, lets burn the witches or kill the infidels etc..

Most memes have a life span, i think traditional religion is probably nearing it's end in the Western world.. time will tell though.

The geniuses owning slaves doesn't really count, though. They weren't like all the uneducated hicks, who just worked their slaves. They actually went to the trouble of bangin' them and knocking them up, just to prove how equal they thought they were. Personally, I've always felt like anyone who was willing to impregnate me, surely must considered me to be his equal.

So a Thomas Jefferson (who owned slaves) and an Isaac Newton (who believed in God) become dolts as soon as enough intellectuals believe slavery is wrong and that religion is dead?

The majority rules? Democratic intelligentsia? Do intellectuals move in herds?

Is the average atheist college student of today more intelligent than Isaac Newton was?

:eek7

I believe in the meme, too. Of course, I usually put the word "screaming" before it, but it sounds like it's basically the same thing.

You sound like Voltaire. When did he die again?

u missed the point. My point was they lived in a different time.

The concept of the meme is a meme itself. ;-)

You didn't answer my question though. I know they lived in a different time. Do you want to define intelligence in such a way that belief in what the intellectuals of your day believe in is considered intelligent?

What? You don't think so?

yeah that's true :)

No.

Not an absolute sense and definitely not in the context used.

No.

define intelligence.

In what context used? That if he's willing to knock me up, then he must consider me to be an equal on some level? So you think a man would just go and get a girl pregnant if he didn't love, respect, and consider her an equal???? What planet are you from, anyway??

Happens all the time.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh
Don't let him bully you, sacX! You're not gonna let him off that easy, are you? Tell him, "hell, yeah" that's how you want to define it and then question his own ability to define intelligence. Hold on- I'll bump a thread and help you. :)

I think it happens every day...of the week...you must live a sheltered life.

How much do you get to listen to before making your decision? A bunch of one word questionaire type answers or do you get to hear the reasons why they believe certain things?

If all you get is one word, probably not.

The hell you say! :ticking

You're right. I should try and get out more.

:girl

grin.. too much effort :).. I definitely don't want to define intelligence but it would be ridiculous to judge someones intelligence without taking their background (which obviously includes when they lived) into account.

http://www.minimumeffort.com/images/logo.gif

Like I said, beliefs aren't single points. Someone isn't just a "pro-capital punishment Muslim", those are only 2 belief points that do not represent the belief webs. As long as you don't know someone's arguments and thoughts about his web of beliefs, you can't really say anything. However, when the web is tested, it can become painfully clear.

For instance, a while ago I talked to some girl. She was a very fanatic christian and, just for the fun of it, I decided to launch a full-scale attack on her beliefs.
In the beginning, she held up pretty well. She knew all the common christian dogma's, had read the bible dozens of times, and was studying to become a minister. If she had managed to keep up the strong defense, and supply enough arguments in favor of her beliefs, she probably would have been intelligent.
However, after a while the discussion went a little deeper, and more and more often I found contradictions between her beliefs, points she had never even thought about (we were talking about the most important thing in her life, mind you), and points she just assumed without any further thinking. At many points in the discussion, I had to help her out with possible arguments, simply because she didn't have any herself.
In the end, she was forced to admit that with her own premises, her entire belief system was inconsistent, contradicted itself and led to bizarre conclusions. However, it didn't cross her mind to drop it or even alter it.

She was stupid. Not because she was a christian, but because she had taken her entire life to build up a belief system which could be refuted in a matter of hours by someone who hadn't spent nearly as much time contemplating the subject. Even worse, while she realized her belief system was inconsistent, she didn't see that as a reason for it to be wrong.

An intelligent christian would have given a far stronger defense, and would have been able to recognize and solve weak points in his belief system.

So, it's not the single points that indicate intelligence, but rather the entire web of beliefs. A conservative christian, a moderate muslim and a progressive atheist can all be intelligent, their intelligence is not indicated by the single points of their beliefs, but rather by their entire belief systems, and the arguments of which they are built up.

The original question only considered the beliefs themselves and not the arguments for them. So maybe you are saying you can't make such a decision from just the beliefs themselves. Or ...?

:1orglaugh agree :thumbsup

I can. I do it alot and am very good at it.

You go ahead and do this.:1orglaugh Where/How did you come up with this poor example. Or is this logic 2 you.:Graucho

There are no "beliefs by themselves". Beliefs by themselves are summaries for the lazy. However, every belief includes a large number of premises, arguments and reasons.

If you use beliefs by themselves, you are saying that essentially, the positions of a teen rebelling against his religious parents and Nietzsche are the same.

His original premise was not that deep and that is why I answered as I did.


quote:
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Originally posted by Colin
Can you get an idea of someone's general intellectual ability from their political views or religious beliefs?
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Yes...you can "get an idea" but it does not mean that your "idea" is accurate...because it would be a subjective "idea"...based upon your own biases.

It would also depend upon which definition of intellectual you are looking at...the "rational" definition or the "capacity" definition.

Regardless of whether there are or are not "beliefs by themselves", what is meant by the original question is that you only have the ability to obtain the beliefs by themselves and have to make an evaluation with that information alone.

Do you believe your evaluation is subjective or that there is something deeper to it than that?

That most intelligent people will have a mastery of third grade grammar?

Your right. Their's probably no more truth to that, then any of the other crazy shit I post. There probably just typing to fast. For the record- I really didn't won't to post that last part. Me and Colin was talking and he thought it would be funny. :winkwink: