AP Wire says 2 more US soldiers just killed.

[Digipimp]

Things seem to be going to hell over there in Iraq, I haven't thought it was quite as bad as many but if they don't get things straightened out and come up with a good strategy within a month, there are going to be some real fucking problems to make this look small.

[Digipimp]

Here's the article if anyone cares.

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/sto...LAT E=DEFAULT

[Ironhorse]

Apparently this guerilla strategy was planned by the Iraqis all along. The heat makes matters worse and the fact that most Iraqis still don't have electricity and running water.

I think the US admin tried to apply the 'Afghanistan Plan' but Iraq is very different, much more civilized; Iraqis are used to a certain standard of living and they will be pissed as long as they don't have these very basic needs met.

[Paul Markham]

Originally posted by Ironhorse
Apparently this guerilla strategy was planned by the Iraqis all along. The heat makes matters worse and the fact that most Iraqis still don't have electricity and running water.

I think the US admin tried to apply the 'Afghanistan Plan' but Iraq is very different, much more civilized; Iraqis are used to a certain standard of living and they will be pissed as long as they don't have these very basic needs met.

And do you know who gave them that standard of living?

Who built the roads, the schools, the sanitation plants, the electricity generators?

And who took it all away and has not got it working again?

One man's enemy is another mans hero, one mans hero is anothers enemy.

The peace will be very hard to win if not impossible. Only time will tell us what it was for.

[Shoplifter]

Originally posted by charly
And do you know who gave them that standard of living?

Saddam.

[Mr.Fiction]

Imagine the United States without any government, military, or police.

Wonder if we'll live to see it.

[Ironhorse]

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
Imagine the United States without any government, military, or police.

Wonder if we'll live to see it.

Not likely, this country has a strong tradition of law and order and its citizens have come to expect order to prevail. Everybody likes to bitch about the government but no sane person would give up the stability it provides.

Edit: Not to mention there are no neighboring countries that are likely to present a military threat in the next 100-200 years

[Digipimp]

Well with the day just begining in Iraq I'm sure that all of the Sunday morning news shows should be pretty interesting if they aren't all busy talking about fucking Kobe.

[Gutterboy]

I'd like to know who is really conducting these attacks. The Bush admin wants us to believe its only outlaw saddam loyalists. I'm not so sure.

Imagine what would happen to american public opinion on the war if it became known that a good number of Iraqi citizens hate the US even more than saddam.

You can't "liberate" people against their will. Have you seen the polls conducted there? Only 25% or so want a western style democracy.. pretty funny.

[Ironhorse]

Originally posted by Gutterboy
I'd like to know who is really conducting these attacks. The Bush admin wants us to believe its only outlaw saddam loyalists. I'm not so sure.

Imagine what would happen to american public opinion on the war if it became known that a good number of Iraqi citizens hate the US even more than saddam.

byebye dubya

My guess is they only need a few loyalists to set the example before you get a bunch of disgruntled copycats doing the job for them.

[sacX]

The US admin over simplifies everything.. It was known from the beginning that foreign affairs were never going to be Bush's strength..

Perhaps with Iraq they have bitten off more than they can chew.

[directfiesta]

Sad for the families of the deads.

And probably useless at this point.

[KRL]

Iraq was a mess.

Iraq is a mess.

Iraq will always be a mess.

Sad but true. Its all about the people that makes a country work. And those people just don't seem to have what it takes to make it happen.

Its ashame, because they certainly have the valuable resources to build with as well as a fairly educated populace. But without solid leaders and unity they'll continue to go nowhere fast.

[ADL Colin]

Originally posted by Ironhorse
Apparently this guerilla strategy was planned by the Iraqis all along. The heat makes matters worse and the fact that most Iraqis still don't have electricity and running water.

I think the US admin tried to apply the 'Afghanistan Plan' but Iraq is very different, much more civilized; Iraqis are used to a certain standard of living and they will be pissed as long as they don't have these very basic needs met.

The important part of the Afghanistan plan was to co-op local Afghanis to go into the towns and cities. That was intentionally avoided in this war. 3 US soldiers have died per week since Bush announced the end of major combat. That's not outside of expectation, is it?

[ADL Colin]

Originally posted by Gutterboy
Imagine what would happen to american public opinion on the war if it became known that a good number of Iraqi citizens hate the US even more than saddam.

Well, yes that's true. It was true 10 years ago, one year ago, and it will be true a year from now. Even a good number of europeans hate the US more than Saddam.

[ADL Colin]

Originally posted by sacX
The US admin over simplifies everything.. It was known from the beginning that foreign affairs were never going to be Bush's strength..

Perhaps with Iraq they have bitten off more than they can chew.

This will extend way beyond Bush.

The struggle between America and non government organizations for power in the world has begun.

[Vendot]

> You can't "liberate" people against their will. Have you
> seen the polls conducted there? Only 25% or so want
> a western style democracy.. pretty funny.

This is very true. No-one wants it and its not working for the Iraqi people - they want things back the way they were when Saddam was around.

[KRL]

Its an excruiatingly difficult expectation to think people who have had subjegated oppressed puppet lifestyles for 30 years can all of a sudden figure out what to do now that the puppetmaster has been removed from power.

It will take a long long time for them to become Americanized.

[ADL Colin]

Originally posted by vendot
> You can't "liberate" people against their will. Have you
> seen the polls conducted there? Only 25% or so want
> a western style democracy.. pretty funny.

This is very true. No-one wants it and its not working for the Iraqi people - they want things back the way they were when Saddam was around.

Not true.

http://washingtontimes.com/national/...0149-1765r.htm

Pollsters commissioned by Britain's Spectator magazine and Channel 4 television network surveyed 798 Baghdad residents face to face July 8-10, their work sometimes interrupted by gunfire, explosions, sandstorms and gun-wielding assailants.

"The first systemic opinion poll of Iraq," the Spectator stated, "finds a population full of anxiety ? but also convinced that war has made their future brighter."

The magazine said the pollsters were hard-pressed "to disengage from a stream of additional comments."

"Far from being nervous about being interviewed, they [Iraqis] wanted to say more and more. This place seemed ripe for some kind of democracy."

The hard-won results, released Thursday and titled "What Baghdad Really Thinks," found that 50 percent of the respondents called the U.S.-led war against Saddam Hussein "right"; 27 percent said it was "wrong"; 23 percent had no opinion.

Five percent of respondents wanted Saddam to return to power. Nine percent preferred life under Saddam's rule, while 29 percent "prefer Americans." Forty-seven percent had "no preference" and 15 percent did not answer.

Iraqis have mixed opinions about when they should regain full control of their country, the poll found.

Forty percent want control immediately, 11 percent within three months, 11 percent within six months and 11 percent within a year. Nearly 10 percent thought regaining control after more than one year was reasonable, and 7 percent thought "Iraqis should not be granted political power" at all. Ten percent had no opinion.

With reference to a style of government, 36 percent want a U.S.-style democracy, and 26 percent prefer Islamic rule "tempered with modern ideals of justice and punishment." Five percent want a presidential ruler, but "not Saddam." Six percent want religious leaders in charge, and 6 percent want a single-party state. The rest were not sure or declined to state their preference.

Thirteen percent want U.S. and British forces to leave Iraq "straightaway." A quarter want them there for a year; 20 percent thought they should leave in less than a year, and 31 percent hoped the troops would stay for "a few years."

A third said their lives were better after the war, while 43 percent said it would be better in a year, and 52 percent said it would be improved in five years.

Just over one quarter said they felt friendly towards U.S. and British forces; 50 percent said they felt neither friendly nor hostile toward the troops. Nine percent said they felt "very" hostile, and 9 percent were "fairly" hostile.

Life has gotten more threatening, the respondents said. Fifty-four percent said it was "much more" dangerous, 21 percent said "a little more," 14 percent said a "little" or "much" safer, and 10 percent said there was no change.

The Iraqis also theorized about American and British motivations for the war: 47 percent felt it was "to secure oil supplies," 41 percent said it was to help Israel, and 23 percent felt it was to liberate Iraq from dictatorship.

Seven percent said the war was fought "to protect Kuwait"; 6 percent thought the war was staged to find weapons of mass destruction, and 18 percent either did not know or would not answer.

Most of the Iraqis' personal travails stem from lack of services, the poll found. Eighty percent cited lack of power, 67 percent noted street violence, 49 percent spoke of lack of drinking water, 33 percent cited lack of medical care, 24 percent said there were food shortages, 21 percent talked of business closings and 17 percent noted school closings.

The poll, which was conducted by the firm YouGov, can be viewed at the Spectator Web site (www.spectator.co.uk).

[ADL Colin]

Here's the Iraqi opinion poll:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/pdfs/iraqi_poll.pdf

[ADL Colin]

The top response to "What kind of political/governmental system would you like to see in Iraq?" was

"British/American-style democracy with various parties competing openly for power". 36% chose that, more than 7 times the number of people that chose "Return of Saddam Hussein".

[Paul Markham]

Originally posted by KRL


It will take a long long time for them to become Americanized.

Thats one of the funniest things you've ever said.

[scooby doo as scooby does]

Originally posted by Colin
The top response to "What kind of political/governmental system would you like to see in Iraq?" was

"British/American-style democracy with various parties competing openly for power". 36% chose that, more than 7 times the number of people that chose "Return of Saddam Hussein".

I'm not surprized at those results. Baghdad was the most westernised city & if that was the only city in Iraq that poll would mean something. Unfort there are a lot of the other cities/towns in Iraq and there view, well, differs a quite a lot from what I can tell.

[ADL Colin]

Originally posted by scooby doo as scooby does



I'm not surprized at those results. Baghdad was the most westernised city & if that was the only city in Iraq that poll would mean something. Unfort there are a lot of the other cities/towns in Iraq and there view, well, differs a quite a lot from what I can tell.

Would you rather poll the Kurds in the North or the Shiites in the South? Saddam had more support in Baghdad than either region.

[ADL Colin]

Originally posted by charly
Thats one of the funniest things you've ever said.

That was a good one.

[scooby doo as scooby does]

Originally posted by Colin


Would you rather poll the Kurds in the North or the Shiites in the South? Saddam had more support in Baghdad than either region.

What would you say to a western reporter when polled with thousands of armed US troops hunting out anti-americanism ? Apparently the poll was conducted with gunfire and explosions going on around, fuck, I'd be running to the nearest microphone to express my undying love for the weapon-wielders. Not to mention when the pollsters got to certain hardcore anti-western areas, they left when recognised gun shots were sounded to signal the arrival of 'Westerner' targets. Don't forget the 50,000 bounty on every Westerners head.

Run that poll in Tikrit, Fallujah or any one of a load more cities and you will get completely different results.

That poll is not a true reflection of how Iraqi's feel. Bloody sure of that.

It's an interesting poll, gathered under extremely harsh conditions with a very small sample in just one city, albeit by far the largest. But that's all it is, hardly 'Iraqi thinking'.

I think the tragic and very sad American body count says far more.

[BVF]

Originally posted by KRL
It will take a long long time for them to become Americanized.

wow...words of a 1700's Colonialist coming out of the mouth of a 21'st century person....

[ADL Colin]

Originally posted by scooby doo as scooby does



What would you say to a western reporter when polled with thousands of armed US troops hunting out anti-americanism ? Apparently the poll was conducted with gunfire and explosions going on around, fuck, I'd be running to the nearest microphone to express my undying love for the weapon-wielders. Not to mention when the pollsters got to certain hardcore anti-western areas, they left when recognised gun shots were sounded to signal the arrival of 'Westerner' targets. Don't forget the 50,000 bounty on every Westerners head.

Run that poll in Tikrit, Fallujah or any one of a load more cities and you will get completely different results.

That poll is not a true reflection of how Iraqi's feel. Bloody sure of that.

It's an interesting poll, gathered under extremely harsh conditions with a very small sample in just one city, albeit by far the largest. But that's all it is, hardly 'Iraqi thinking'.

I think the tragic and very sad American body count says far more.

And how would you answer a poll in a country that was brutally ruled by a party that is out of power but not completely deposed of yet? Only 5% chose Saddam and fuck, probably half of those were people still harboring fear from decades of Ba'ath party rule.

Major cities like Mosul and Basrah were decidedly anti-Saddam before the war. Mosul, the second largest city in Iraq is heavily Kurdish and 5% would take a rigged poll box there for sure.

No doubt results would not be as anti-Saddam in Tikrit but saying that Baghdad results are on the high side (or low depending on your point of view) because Baghdad is more western ignores the fact that the people North and South of the now defunct no-fly
zones would have been strongly anti-Saddam. Those areas include some of the largest population centers in Iraq.

I think Baghdad is representative. There are more factors involved than just degree of westernization. Western does not even necessarily mean more interested in democratic ideals. There are many Eastern democracies and even a few Muslim ones too.

It matters not. Barring civil war, Iraq will likely go as Baghdad goes. 33% of the population of Iraq is in Baghdad. Tikrit is a town 60 x smaller than Baghdad.

Iraqis want to be just as free from being tortured for saying the wrong thing as you do.

[ADL Colin]

Originally posted by scooby doo as scooby does

I think the tragic and very sad American body count says far more.

Probably the lowest body count in history for an operation of this magnitude and duration. The only operation in history I can think of that could compare is the World War II German invasion of Yugoslavia.

What DOES that say?

[Tex Willer]

Originally posted by Colin


Probably the lowest body count in history for an operation of this magnitude and duration. The only operation in history I can think of that could compare is the World War II German invasion of Yugoslavia.

What DOES that say?

no but with invasion of Denmark, lasted one day only

as for Yugoslavia (pre WW2 one), the April war lasted only a few weeks cause no one but Serbs defended the country (fiercely, as always), others either surrendered immediately or, worse, happily joined the Axis (croatians, albanians and bosnian muslims, at full throttle)

[eadweb]

Originally posted by Digipimp
Things seem to be going to hell over there in Iraq, I haven't thought it was quite as bad as many but if they don't get things straightened out and come up with a good strategy within a month, there are going to be some real fucking problems to make this look small.

Don't worry! I'm sure George W. has a great exit strategery.

[Cash]

Originally posted by Ironhorse
Edit: Not to mention there are no neighboring countries that are likely to present a military threat in the next 100-200 years

This is a funny statement, especially today when distances become very short. Who could predict in 1919 that after 20 years an even bigger world war would start? You should watch out for China, the next world power within the next 30-50 years.

[scooby doo as scooby does]

Originally posted by Colin


Probably the lowest body count in history for an operation of this magnitude and duration. The only operation in history I can think of that could compare is the World War II German invasion of Yugoslavia.

What DOES that say?

What ever you want it to. Just because Bush says the war is over, doesn't make it so. I don't know how long this guerilla war will last. I do know it's escalating. I also don't know what affect this war will have on terrorist activity against the U.S. It's even possible that if everything goes according to plan and this is part of some plan to defeat terrorism, future lives may have been saved. I doubt it somehow, but you never know. Making judgement now on what this has cost the U.S. in terms of life lost is just not possible.

[scooby doo as scooby does]

Originally posted by Colin


And how would you answer a poll in a country that was brutally ruled by a party that is out of power but not completely deposed of yet? Only 5% chose Saddam and fuck, probably half of those were people still harboring fear from decades of Ba'ath party rule.

You make my point. Weapons and danger are weapons and danger whether wielded by Ba'ath party members or nervous U.S. troops manhunting anti-U.S. sentiment.

Even the poll authors make a disclaimer on their page about how flawed the poll is.


It was an interesting exercise, but as a pointer to what Iraqi's across the whole country really think, completely meaningless.