The rules of engagement for todays Adult Industry.

[Joesho]

Do you have to scam people, and steal, and lie, and cheat, to be succesful, or respected in the Adult industry now days?

Like Serge Oprano, or are their still some good straight shooters, that are looking to mantain their success and respect, Here too?

[neuromancer]

Yeah. Everyone in the industry is a scammer. Moron.

[detoxed]

nah you can do it honestly

[neighborhood_bob]

What amazes me is how many people in this industry make deals
with no recourse. Contracts (real written ones, not verbal or
electronic) are the basis for good business. If everyone required
a signed contract for transactions over $100, the face of business
in this industry would change. You would know who you were
dealing with (a real name and physical address), and debts
would be realistically collectible. No more anonymous bulletin
board phantoms who run on a good reputation, until they
dissappear with everyones money.

I've learned over the years that people who aren't willing to
sign a contract can't be trusted anyway. They are entities that
should be avoided in the first place.

[Joesho]

Originally posted by neighborhood_bob
What amazes me is how many people in this industry make deals
with no recourse. Contracts (real written ones, not verbal or
electronic) are the basis for good business. If everyone required
a signed contract for transactions over $100, the face of business
in this industry would change. You would know who you were
dealing with (a real name and physical address), and debts
would be realistically collectible. No more anonymous bulletin
board phantoms who run on a good reputation, until they
dissappear with everyones money.

I've learned over the years that people who aren't willing to
sign a contract can't be trusted anyway. They are entities that
should be avoided in the first place.

I definetly want to meet you...I am watching cause I got some good shit to discuss with the right people at the show in florida...
I got on these boards early to do my homework...and yes I am taking notes for all that care...

[Greg B]

In all these years on the web I've found adult webmasters more honorable in business with me than the film/tv/comic book/news media businesses that are SUPPOSED to be honest!

I shitteth you notteth.

I give mainstream businesses 30% honor rating compared to a 95% honor rating for adult webaster businesses!

The ONLY problem with adult webmastering is the same people I wouldn't deal with in business are the same dumbasses who run blindlink/redirect/dialer/pop-up bullshit.

And believe you me, I know what's coming down the pike, you had BETTER be honest and them that haven't, I would change my ways yesterday.

[jact]

I've found very few crooked people that I have delt with in the industry. Sure, I have been scammed and the scammer(s) in question continue to scam people, but I was lucky and caught on early and walked away...

There are honest, straight shooters left in the industry for sure. I also think there's a ton of honest people who just don't have two bits of common business sense to rub together that don't realize what they're doing is wrong/unethical/dishonest. People for the most part just aren't that bright.

[Why]

i think that the problem is more that they disappear and come back with a differant company and image, and everyone gives them money again.

[XYCash]

Of course there are honest webmasters. I think most of the people I have personally dealt with are extremely ethical and professional and they will move forward.

The people who are scamming are eventually going to go down, one way or another, whether it be by lack of respect or the feds, the day is coming.

There was a time when you could play cowboy in the wild wild west, but those days are long gone...ended round about 1999.

If someone doesn't have their "ducks in a row" these days then they are setting themselves up for some really bad times in my opinion.

-joe

[12clicks]

Originally posted by neighborhood_bob
What amazes me is how many people in this industry make deals
with no recourse. Contracts (real written ones, not verbal or
electronic) are the basis for good business. If everyone required
a signed contract for transactions over $100, the face of business
in this industry would change. You would know who you were
dealing with (a real name and physical address), and debts
would be realistically collectible. No more anonymous bulletin
board phantoms who run on a good reputation, until they
dissappear with everyones money.

I've learned over the years that people who aren't willing to
sign a contract can't be trusted anyway. They are entities that
should be avoided in the first place.

Deal clueless, this business was build on 100k handshakes.
Just because you newbie morons can't conduct proper business like that today doesn't mean its not still being done by the movers and shakers of this business.

[neighborhood_bob]

Things change Mr. Clicks

[Joesho]

Originally posted by 12clicks


Deal clueless, this business was build on 100k handshakes.
Just because you newbie morons can't conduct proper business like that today doesn't mean its not still being done by the movers and shakers of this business.

Are you Serge's right hand scam man?

[neuromancer]

Originally posted by Joesho


Are you Serge's right hand scam man?

Are you taking over lil2rich4u's job?

[12clicks]

Originally posted by neighborhood_bob
Things change Mr. Clicks

No they don't. The fools just become more numerous

[12clicks]

Originally posted by Joesho


Are you Serge's right hand scam man?

heh, another clueless here today gone and forgotten tomorrow newbie.

[neighborhood_bob]

Mr Clicks,

I agree that the fools become more numerous...no doubt about it.
That's the same in any industry. Inexperienced people are
usually at the mercy of experienced predators.

And I agree that there will always be inexperienced newbies
who can be easily fleeced out of a few thousand dollars.

But do you really think that substantial agreements are made
without a contract? Not Likely...

You make it sound like this entire industry operates on a
handshake. That's just crazy. Do you think that adult.com
promotes playboy without a written contract? If so, I have a
super proposition for lensman...
make us both a fortune.

Of course there will always be people silly enough to risk
a few thousand pocket change without written protection...
they may get burned or not...they're depending on luck.

Please give me an example of a deal in the adult industry
of substantial value ($50,000+) that was consumated
and carried out to both parties satisfaction without a written
contract. But make it a deal that took place in the last year
or so...These kind of deals made fast and loose in the mid to
late 90s are not a valid example. No one really does business
that way anymore where substantial value is concerned.

You seem to have alot of experience in this area. I would
be interested to know how a deal like this plays out.

GFY is an interesting (and sometimes educational) board,
but don't confuse a low post count with inexperience or lack
of assets. Book/Cover...you know...

[Kevin2]

My experience has been the same as GregB. I used to be part of the corporate world and left because of bullshit and deceit. Take a look at the major corporates that have been in the press the last few years and you will see what I mean.

In all my dealings with my fellow adult webmasters I have only found two who were scammers.

[KRL]

Originally posted by neighborhood_bob
What amazes me is how many people in this industry make deals
with no recourse. Contracts (real written ones, not verbal or
electronic) are the basis for good business. If everyone required
a signed contract for transactions over $100, the face of business
in this industry would change. You would know who you were
dealing with (a real name and physical address), and debts
would be realistically collectible. No more anonymous bulletin
board phantoms who run on a good reputation, until they
dissappear with everyones money.

I've learned over the years that people who aren't willing to
sign a contract can't be trusted anyway. They are entities that
should be avoided in the first place.

There was a post about contracts last night. Read it.

[GFED]

When's the party?

[-=HUNGRYMAN=-]

Originally posted by Joesho
Do you have to scam people, and steal, and lie, and cheat, to be succesful, or respected in the Adult industry now days?

Like Serge Oprano, or are their still some good straight shooters, that are looking to mantain their success and respect, Here too?

Hey ... Don't get me wrong, I think Serge is a great guy, and I respect his opinions as a friend ...

But I am curious why you've got your nose burried so far up his ass it's not even funny

I have seen more than a couple threads now where you are singing his praises ... what's the deal ? Just curious ..

[theWatsonian]

Originally posted by Joesho
Do you have to scam people, and steal, and lie, and cheat, to be succesful, or respected in the Adult industry now days?

Yes.

[SleazyDream]

Originally posted by neighborhood_bob


I've learned over the years that people who aren't willing to
sign a contract can't be trusted anyway. They are entities that
should be avoided in the first place.

in the REAL world it's actually the EXACT opposite of that statement.

if you want to start dealing in some REAL money you'll need to come to terms with that.

[JOKER]

Originally posted by 12clicks


Deal clueless, this business was build on 100k handshakes.
Just because you newbie morons can't conduct proper business like that today doesn't mean its not still being done by the movers and shakers of this business.

True words... But this was/is another level of this Industry anyway.



Cheers,

JOKER

[Ironhorse]

Originally posted by neighborhood_bob
What amazes me is how many people in this industry make deals
with no recourse. Contracts (real written ones, not verbal or
electronic) are the basis for good business. If everyone required
a signed contract for transactions over $100, the face of business
in this industry would change. You would know who you were
dealing with (a real name and physical address), and debts
would be realistically collectible. No more anonymous bulletin
board phantoms who run on a good reputation, until they
dissappear with everyones money.

I've learned over the years that people who aren't willing to
sign a contract can't be trusted anyway. They are entities that
should be avoided in the first place.

The reality of this of course is that some people will not send you a signed paper, and as a contractor you stand to lose a deal often if you insist on being 'strict' with these kinds of deals.

[slackologist]

handshake deals are fine amoung friends but i don't think it's sensible in any other situation online or offline.

if you're not dealing with a friend, it's just business and anyone not out to rip you off will want it down in writing anyway.

unless you're doing dodgy / illegal deals under the table i don't see the problem with doing some paperwork.

[12clicks]

Originally posted by neighborhood_bob

But do you really think that substantial agreements are made
without a contract? Not Likely...

bob, how many *substantial* agreements have you made in this business?
do you have any idea how many *I* have made?
You're out of your depth with your "not likely" comment.

Originally posted by neighborhood_bob
You make it sound like this entire industry operates on a
handshake. That's just crazy.

No, that's how business among operators is done. You think its crazy because you're not part of the operators who can do this.

Originally posted by neighborhood_bob
Do you think that adult.com
promotes playboy without a written contract?

Nope, they don't but only because *playboy* is corporate. I could do the same amount of business with lensman tomorrow on a handshake.

Originally posted by neighborhood_bob
If so, I have a
super proposition for lensman...
make us both a fortune.

um, right.

Originally posted by neighborhood_bob
Of course there will always be people silly enough to risk
a few thousand pocket change without written protection...
they may get burned or not...they're depending on luck.

I guess we're talking about newbies here.

Originally posted by neighborhood_bob
Please give me an example of a deal in the adult industry
of substantial value ($50,000+) that was consumated
and carried out to both parties satisfaction without a written
contract. But make it a deal that took place in the last year
or so...These kind of deals made fast and loose in the mid to
late 90s are not a valid example..

I can think of three deals we currently have in place, all worth at least 6 figures done on a handshake or less.

Originally posted by neighborhood_bob
No one really does business
that way anymore where substantial value is concerned.

You speak with such confidence and surity. Please tell us what deals of $50k plus you've EVER done in this biz.

Originally posted by neighborhood_bob
You seem to have alot of experience in this area. I would
be interested to know how a deal like this plays out..

I pick up the phone or hit someone up on icq. I usually start with "I reached into the hat today and pulled out your name. Here's how I'm going to make you money"
and in about 5 minutes we have a deal and the tech issues are quickly worked out. Shortly thereafter, the money flows.

Originally posted by neighborhood_bob
GFY is an interesting (and sometimes educational) board,
but don't confuse a low post count with inexperience or lack
of assets. Book/Cover...you know...

I never do. I judge a man's knowledge by what he says and what he doesn't say.
You may know things about business in general but very little about this business.

[XYCash]

Originally posted by 12clicks

I never do. I judge a man's knowledge by what he says and what he doesn't say.
You may know things about business in general but very little about this business.

You are a better man than I. If things aren't written out in a specific manner and approved by my lawyers there's no way I move forward.

In this day and age when people take McDonalds to court because a cheeseburger makes their kid fat...anyone that doesn't have a written contract is asking for trouble.

just my

[tony286]

I dont think a contract is necessary but a real name, phone number and address is a must. To do a serious amount of business with someone and only know their GFY nick you are asking to be fucked hard.

[NBDesign]

If everyone is a scammer and that is the only way to make money in this business.... Then I am FUCKED!!!

I have actually met some GREAT people in the business, they have been very helpful. (You know who you are)....

I strongly believe that dishonesty will come back to bite you on the ass... better to do it right.

[tony286]

I pick up the phone or hit someone up on icq. I usually start with "I reached into the hat today and pulled out your name. Here's how I'm going to make you money"
and in about 5 minutes we have a deal and the tech issues are quickly worked out. Shortly thereafter, the money flows.



Pick me , Pick me

[12clicks]

Originally posted by XYCash


You are a better man than I. If things aren't written out in a specific manner and approved by my lawyers there's no way I move forward.

we've been old school operators for quite a while.

Tony404, I'm not sure I have your icq let alone have your name in the hat.

[XYCash]

Originally posted by tony404
I dont think a contract is necessary but a real name, phone number and address is a must. To do a serious amount of business with someone and only know their GFY nick you are asking to be fucked hard.

It depends on the depth of the partnership. If on the one hand you're talking about buying content on a regular basis from a photographer..cool...you can pull the plug on the cash at any time if the deal screws up.

I mean...i do business like that all the time...but serious cash? 10 grand and over?

Like for instance if you are talking about a major partnership...like running a paysite program...lol...anyone would be foolish to not get their shit together in a contract.

If it's all not written out with all the specific info and signed by both parties...man...I dont even want to go there.

How many times have you had a conversation with someone who got the point as being something completely different than what you were trying to get across?

[tony286]

Originally posted by 12clicks


we've been old school operators for quite a while.

Tony404, I'm not sure I have your icq let alone have your name in the hat.

My ICQ is 52416841 and my name is Tony404. If you like I can Fedex you a slip of paper with my name on it to add to the hat

[Undutchable]

I agree with what's been said - a surprisingly low amount of people ever ask about contracts or NDA's for that matter. Personally, I don't think it's always practical to be doing it, but for larger projects I find it hard to grasp that a smart minded business man wouldn't take the trouble to write out a quick contract for it.

Exceptions are there though. Some people have been in this biz for a long long time and they can be relied on 100%. That's just the way it is

[HardProfits]

I have said it b4, and will say it again

Our industry is no different to any other industry when it comes to scammers and thiefs

The only real difference is that we have these boards to publically out the fuckers, and all it takes is a few simple searches to find out who is who, and who you can trust. THIS IS THE REASON YOU MAY BE THINKING WE ARE IN INDUSTRY FULL OF SCAMMERS!

So far I have found an abundant quantity of really great people who I will do business with time and time again.

And I have equally found a huge supply of assholes who try at all costs to rip me off, and its up to me to make sur that doesnt happen.

Anyways, I have had my splurt for the day.....

I look forward to meeting all the wonderful and honest webmasters in Florida next month

Dan

[chAos]

Originally posted by 12clicks


Deal clueless, this business was build on 100k handshakes.
Just because you newbie morons can't conduct proper business like that today doesn't mean its not still being done by the movers and shakers of this business.

Dude still doing business that way but the newbs are young and restless and definately see a short dollar instead of the long money

[neighborhood_bob]

12clicks,

I appreciate your response. Your arguments sound valid, and I
don't dispute them. And you are right...I haven't made any
substantial agreements in this industry. Still, how someone could
make 6 figure deals without being "Corporate" is beyond my
imagination.
To do deals like that without a corporate identity and a good
accountant must be a tax nightmare.

Originally posted by SleazyDream
in the REAL world it's actually the EXACT opposite of that statement.

if you want to start dealing in some REAL money you'll need to come to terms with that.

My experiences have been very different. There would have
been countless times I would have been burned if I had not had
a contract to enforce performance.

[TheFLY]

BLAH BLAH BLAH FUCK YOU LOSERS

[neighborhood_bob]

Thank you sir...may I have another?












$postcount++;

[12clicks]

Originally posted by neighborhood_bob
12clicks,

I appreciate your response. Your arguments sound valid, and I
don't dispute them. And you are right...I haven't made any
substantial agreements in this industry. Still, how someone could
make 6 figure deals without being "Corporate" is beyond my
imagination.
To do deals like that without a corporate identity and a good
accountant must be a tax nightmare.

I never said there was no corporate identity.

I only do deals where I can lose money with people that I trust.
If you can't trust who you deal with, a contract WILL NOT save you in this business.

[XYCash]

Originally posted by 12clicks

I never said there was no corporate identity.

I only do deals where I can lose money with people that I trust.
If you can't trust who you deal with, a contract WILL NOT save you in this business.

A contract allows you to go back and specifically refer to details that someone may forget over time. I refer back to them all the time myself if I have a specific question about a detail. A contract spells out exactly what was agreed upon between the two parties in black and white so there can be no confusion.

I know people in this industry who have been around for a long time who also did things on a handshake with someone they trusted and are now embroiled in court battles over who was responsible for what.

I'm sure the opposite is true as well...there are plenty of people who do business on a handshake and never see any problems from that business deal, but that's not to say they never will. And if they do, they have nothing but a conversation and a handshake to refer back to.

-joe

[neighborhood_bob]

Originally posted by XYCash
A contract allows you to go back and specifically refer to details that someone may forget over time. I refer back to them all the time myself if I have a specific question about a detail. A contract spells out exactly what was agreed upon between the two parties in black and white so there can be no confusion.

I know people in this industry who have been around for a long time who also did things on a handshake with someone they trusted and are now embroiled in court battles over who was responsible for what.

I'm sure the opposite is true as well...there are plenty of people who do business on a handshake and never see any problems from that business deal, but that's not to say they never will. And if they do, they have nothing but a conversation and a handshake to refer back to

That has been by experience as well.
If I was mostly doing business with my buddies, as 12 clicks does,
I would still want a contract.
Then again...I would want a contract with GOD if real money
is concerned.

[Kimmykim]

Hahaha, what a silly thread this is...

see you in Florida 12clicks ;)

Daniel, give me a call today we need to finish up our after the show plan --

[EvilToyBoy]

Originally posted by 12clicks
I only do deals where I can lose money with people that I trust. If you can't trust who you deal with, a contract WILL NOT save you in this business.

Hear, hear.

Admittedly many may still consider someone my size a newbie, and I haven't cut any 6 figure deals of late (unless you would count converting their value to Kenyan Shillings!), but almost my ENTIRE operation is based on a an ICQ deal, an email, a wink and a nod at at best, a handshake....

I have made a **lot** of money in past lives outside of the adult internet and my experience is the biggest and best deals are cut with a handshake and maybe a contract later if someone needs one...

I work on gut feeling, and that has been good for me, but when I have fucked up, let me tell you, I have FUCKED up.

I work with people, not lawyers and generally contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on.

As Evil Dan said, people who don't know people just need to ask - these boards help that out, as do the contacts you make along the way - someone ALWAYS knows someone who knows someone...

Sift through the shit and there are damn good people in this biz - fuck, without the knowledge I have gleaned from some of the bigger (and smaller!!!) players over the past couple of years I wouldn't be worth shit...

Long term players will gain a rep, and those that keep it will still have their handshake accepted as better than any words on a worthless piece of paper....

If I had a contract with Playboy and they decided to dick me, by the time I got past their Lawyer's secretary I would be older than Mr Hefner and couldn't afford the little blue pills.

Business is business, what we do is just another widget - but the relationships we build and the reputation we earn is what ensures that you afford to read this board for years and then figure you've reached a point where you have something valid to add.

That's my 2c anyway......

[12clicks]

Originally posted by XYCash


A contract allows you to go back and specifically refer to details that someone may forget over time. I refer back to them all the time myself if I have a specific question about a detail. A contract spells out exactly what was agreed upon between the two parties in black and white so there can be no confusion.

I know people in this industry who have been around for a long time who also did things on a handshake with someone they trusted and are now embroiled in court battles over who was responsible for what.

I'm sure the opposite is true as well...there are plenty of people who do business on a handshake and never see any problems from that business deal, but that's not to say they never will. And if they do, they have nothing but a conversation and a handshake to refer back to.

-joe

I suppose a contract can be a good crutch for some.

Kimmy, you better bring a contract to dinner, it looks like I've been doing things all wrong the last 5 years.

[Kimmykim]

Originally posted by 12clicks


I suppose a contract can be a good crutch for some.

Kimmy, you better bring a contract to dinner, it looks like I've been doing things all wrong the last 5 years.

Shit, this probably means its my turn to pay as well ;)

[12clicks]

Originally posted by Kimmykim


Shit, this probably means its my turn to pay as well ;)

its all spelled out in the contract honey.

[Kimmykim]

Originally posted by 12clicks


its all spelled out in the contract honey.

Hey, I'm the one bringing the contract, don't you try any of that handshake funny business on me pal!

[Jakke PNG]

I like to scam people who don't have signed contracts with me. I always want money upfront and never deliver if I don't have a written contract.

[XYCash]

Originally posted by 12clicks


I suppose a contract can be a good crutch for some.

Kimmy, you better bring a contract to dinner, it looks like I've been doing things all wrong the last 5 years.

Question:
What Halachic obligations are created by the formalization of a transaction with a handshake, and when is a handshake considered an oath?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer:

A. There are actually three different types of handshakes, and each has different Halachic ramifications:
1. A handshake to formalize an acquisition (Kinyan) and transfer ownership from one party to another, in industries and societies where this is customarily done. For example, in the diamond industry a handshake is commonly used to effect a Kinyan.

2. A handshake can be used as an oath to obligate one's self to do something that he is committing himself to. This may be done between two parties, but may also be used to obligate one's self to do something not related to the person that he is shaking hands with.

3. A handshake to consummate an agreement with a friend, which obligates both of them to perform certain future commitments that they have made to one another.


B. Anytime a handshake is customarily used as an act of acquisition in a sale, once it has been done, both parties are bound by the terms of the sale that they have agreed upon, and neither side is permitted to back out.
However, since this is an acquisition and not an oath, if one party were to improperly back out, it would not be necessary to have a "Hattaras Shavua"- release from an oath performed by a Bais Din. (1)


C. If one of the parties said to the others, "Let's shake hands that we will stick to the terms of our agreement", and they did so, their handshake qualifies as an oath, even if no formal Kinyan was done. However, if after agreeing on terms, they shook hands without stipulating anything, this would be an act of Kinyan rather than an oath (in societies where Kinyan is done in this manner). (2)

D. A person who raises his hand and says "I shake hands with Heaven (or G-d) that I will do such-and-such", this is an oath. As a matter of fact, even if he would not actually raise his hand but would use this terminology, it would be an oath. (3)

E. If a person declares that he will not eat a certain food item, or do or not do something, and "shakes on it" with his friend, it is considered an oath.
However. if he says that he will only do so if his friend agrees, and the friend does not, this oath is null and void, and no Hataras Shavua is necessary.

If the person making the oath does so and stipulates at the time of the handshake that only his friend can release him from the oath- his friend may not do so. Only a qualified Bais Din may release him, and the friend need not serve as one of the judges on the panel. (4)


F. Although a Bais Din will generally be less inclined to release a person from an oath unless there are extenuating circumstances, as opposed to a vow which they will release a person from for almost any reason, if they did release a person from such an oath (which came about via a handshake) for non-extenuating reasons, the release is effective. (5)

G. A handshake made to consummate an agreement with another party is even more Chamor (grave) than an oath, and a Bais Din may only release a person from such an agreement in the following situation.
1. If there will be a serious financial loss to one of the parties if he is bound to the agreement.

2. If the Bais Din is convinced that one of the parties will be totally unable to abide by what he has committed himself to.

3. If there is a good chance that one of the parties will be forced to transgress laws of the Torah if he is not released from the agreement.

If one of the above conditions is not present, and Bais Din releases one of the parties from such an agreement, the release is not effective, and the covenant between the two parties remains intact.


H. A handshake to consummate an agreement is only effective if the handshake occurred between the two parties directly involved in the agreement. Therefore, if Reuven and Shimon shook hands on an agreement between Reuven and Levi, the agreement does not take effect. However, if Reuven would want to back out he should have a Hattaras Shavua done in Bais Din, since his actions would constitute an oath on his part.

I. Examples of a handshake that would consummate an agreement between two parties would be if two people make an agreement to be partners in a business or some aspect of it, or that one will not open a competing business with the other. Also, a handshake on an agreement to live in a certain area, or that one will work for the other, consummates their commitment to each other.
If a bride and groom make a commitment to get married, only a handshake between the two of them would create a binding covenant between them to actually do so. (Although this would be forbidden because they may not have physical contact before marriage, if they did so it is effective). However, if the groom shakes with the bride's father, or the bride shakes with the groom's mother regarding a commitment to marry or to abide by some financial arrangement between the bride and groom, it would not be considered as if a covenant had been made. Even in this case, if one of the parties would wish to reverse themselves they should seek Hattaras Shavua before a competent Bais Din, as we stated above.

- think I'll stick to my "crutch"