For crying out loud. When will you people wake the fuck up and realize some fundamentals of good business practice.

Visa and Mastercard make their money by protecting the consumer. If they protect the consumer, the customer uses their cards more and they make more money.

The online porn industry makes its money by screwing the consumer. Visa and Mastercard have said to hell with that.

You don't screw Visa and Mastercard. THEY SCREW YOU.

Get in line with their rules or get out of biz. Period.

I agree with that for the most part. I've always thought that.

But did you read the actual complaint Epoch filed?

There's stuff MC was doing that isn't right and it didn't have to do with protecting their cardholders.

Like what?

I read it, and would be interested in what you are referring to.

When the card database was hacked and 13 million numbers were compromised. MC refused to provide anyone with the #'s so sales involving those cards could be refused.

You can't say you're going to allow chargebacks for stolen cards, and refuse to supply a list of known cards that could be compromised.

I'll go look through the whole thing again. Mastercard spies are such pains. :P

You shouldn't have to pay a fine and go over your 1% because of returns and credits to a customer(s) Credit cards.

It's a catch 22. Cancel and credit a card, or get a CB, same response from MC :(

Well, that's a good point.

But remember that the hacked database wasn't discovered until February of 2003. (p.13)

By then, Epoch had completely screwed up their relationship with Mastercard after falling out of compliance for a good part of 2001-2002.

It's not crazy to assume that they wouldn't want to hand over a database of stolen credit cards to a company that had repeatedly violated their rules in the past.

Maybe it was a matter of trust ... or lack thereof.

Maybe. But it's not very fair either. If MC was so unhappy with Epoch they should have terminated the relationship instead of setting Epoch and other processors up to accept stolen cards then nailing them with fines for accepting stolen cards.

I also don't think that MC should be forced to change it's business model. The TicketMaster example was good.

MC is saying Ticketmaster can operate one way in that they merely sell access to a venue, but is at the same time saying Epoch cannot do the same.

I know that Epoch needs to do some sort of control and remove shitty sites that deliver shit and leave the consumer feeling ripped off leading to excessive credits and chargebacks, but they shouldn't be forced to change their entire business structure.

Charging higher transaction fees and such and claiming the higher rates are necessary due to the fact that internet merchants are more prone to fraud, then making online merchants bear ALL the cost of the fraud is pretty weak, too. ;)

I'm not saying MC and VISA are evil or anything. I do agree that they are looking out for their cardholders and a good portion of why they do things is because of what the adult industry used to allow...but some of the stuff MC did was wrong.

At least they're letting people know what's going on.

Hopefully they will win their lawsuit and make the CC companies make some positive changes.

Agree with your reference to Verotel and Glo-Bill. In the past few weeks the haters were bashing 'em with unsubstantiated rumors and conjecture about this or that compliance issue. The only companies definitely out of compliance are those that are getting fucking FINED. And it seems that chargebacks are what's doing it: iBill, Epoch, Jettis, Websitebilling....the list goes on.

As long as webmasters continue to want to hide rebilling in tiny print, and screw over the user and as long as major processors allow that, Visa/MC are just going to continue to smash our industry.

What will we tell our grandchildren when there is no porn industry left for them to inherit?

:helpme

Well, I've pointed this out before. But back in '96, when my husband was in the biz, there was a big concern about whether the IPSP model was even "legal" so to speak ... and allowed under card association rules.

Obviously the IPSPs proceeded anyway, but the original "model" was always in question.

Now that the industry has really pissed them off, they're really cracking down with all of the rules --- including this one.

So, as usual, the industry only has itself to blame -- even on this one.

I'd bet Mastercard wouldn't be making that demand if billing practices were ethical and under control.

Indeed. But it's pointed out in the filing that VISA came up with a solution that didn't require anyone else to totally change their business around.

Extra paperwork? Yep. A fee? Yep. Making the processors redesign their businesses entirely? Nope.

MC could very easily use the VISA method of making each URL register and pay a fee.

The cost would again be absorbed by everyone but MC, so cost isn't an issue.

It's too late to say the 3rd party model is illegal and shouldn't have been allowed. MC and VISA let it go on for years so they are in part responsible for the fact that it even exists.

Try to think of it this way:

If an affiliate is cheating a sponsor program for a long time, what do they do?

They take all of the affiliate's money and tell them to go to hell.

If the sponsor could do more, they would throw the book at them.

That's all MC and Visa are doing.

It's the same type of stuff that's posted on this board day in and day out ... just on the other side.

And I agree.

MC would probably be a lot easier to work with had things been done differently in the past. ;)

I have no problem with them fining processors for excessive chargebacks. The processors should be making sure the sites they process for aren't shit and don't do crappy things like burying charges in fine print and stuff.

I also have no problem with them counting credits towards the c/b ratio. I know why that was done.

I'm just saying MC has gone way too overboard in some of the stuff they demand and has done some crappy things, too.

Actually, I agree.

But when people have screwed me in business, I go for blood with everything I've got.

Not everything they've done is fair. Some of it is overboard. But it's totally understandable from the perspective of what happened.

If you read the complaint, it's pretty clear that Epoch took things way too far in their relationship with Mastercard.

If I was MC, I'd be pissed too.

(Ooops ... there's goes that spy thing again ... :1orglaugh )

:uhoh, oh boy . . . .

Not all of it's understandable to me. ;) The stuff I posted doesn't make sense.

Is MC trying to come up with a solution or are they just trying to stick it to everyone because they can (even if to some degree it was warranted and asked for)?

I'd rather see things get fixed, then a big penis contest between MC and the world of online porn, because MC's dick is a hell of a lot bigger.

While I agree with you 100% I must ask you....
have you ever tried to cancel a gym membership?
It is meer impossible to cancel it.
But you dont see them having all these problems.
Why?
because when you go into that damn place they have you sign papers.

So they are singling out the sex industry.

Well, the reason it makes sense to me is the following:

Mastercard, like any large corporation, is a bureaucracy. So, in a lot of ways, their sketchy enforcement of various rules kinda makes sense. They probably didn't get around to a lot of things until it became a huge problem.

Second: Look at checks, just as an example. A lot of people, both online and offline, don't bother with it anymore because the bounced checks became too much of a hassle --- regardless of the money you could make.

Mastercard doesn't need us, and they obviously came to the conclusion that it's not worth the hassle. So they're taking the hard line: Get in line or Get Out.

Look at all of the discussions on this board. There's maybe a handful of webmasters who have expressed any interest in cleaning up the industry's billing practices.

The overall attitude of the vast majority is "Fuck the consumer 'til the end."

Would you want to process for these guys?

I wouldn't. So I can understand it.

EPOCH is the bomb and SoCalCash supports them %100 as we feel any processor that is written up in FORBES magazine(on a good note), sues mastercard and does not allow kiddie porn from the start has the tools to keep this industry moving forward.

Keep it up EPOCH!

:thumbsup

Yea. I know. :(

didn't epoch have payment problems a few years ago as well?

nevermind, you smell like somebody who has something to gain by bagging on epoch.

bottom line is that while epoch may very well have been out of compliance (according to the 1% rule) they were not out of compliance by the 2.5% rule... and since they were never informed of a 1% rule that makes it a wee bit difficult to abide by it.

Kinda like seeing speed limit signs everywhere saying 55... and then getting pulled over for doing 55 in a 35 zone.

Not to mention that the way that MC does business is simply b.s. bully tactics. Perhaps if you ever had your own merchant account you would understand how massive and ridiculous fines can get for doing absolutely nothing wrong.

It sounds like you know a bit about processing, but 2003 is not 1996.. and having a spouse in the biz back in the day hardly qualifies you as an expert. So why not shut your mouth til you have something accurate and/or positive to contribute to the conversation.

Don't forget.. epoch going down would be a massive blow to this industry. Not good for anybody, even if you dont process with them.

Jeez.

On the brighter side. I'm glad to get a notification about that whopping 3 day payment delay. Definitely prefer that over having smoke blown up my ass.

After reading this thread I've learned 2 things.

1) Epoch is a class act, 2 weeks notice for a 72 hour delay is plenty. They could have easily changed pay periods from weekly to bi-monthly (like some other major processors do) and called it a "policy change" and improved their cash flow by much more than 72 hours. Instead they told the truth, very classy. AND payments to resellers aren't delayed at all, so your webmasters will still get paid on time as always.

2) Nevermind is an idiot with an agenda.

Yeah, well, heard all this before. Yawn.

I've already been accused of being a MC spy. If you had actually read the lawsuit (which you obviously haven't) it's pretty clear that MC doesn't give a flying fuck about any of us, including Epoch. They won't even meet with them.

Maybe you haven't noticed but PayPal has cut off adult all together. Humboldt has cut off a lot of adult merchant accounts including Hughes, among others. WSB is out of business. Epoch's having cash flow problems.

Ibill and others have been fined as well. The list goes on and on.

We'll see who the "idiots" are when you're out of business.

Hello Kimmykim, Dumbass here. Smile. Your on candid camera!

doesn't it cost about 30$ to charge back a credit card.. for each transaction... why not just do 2 transactions for 20$.. instead of rebill monthly rebill every 2 weeks.. then if mastercard says if you refund them it still goes twards the charge back ratio.. tell the customers becuase of mastercard regulations we cannot credit your account and make it seem like mastercard is the fuckers not letting people have their money back.. why give them money back if it's going to end up fucking you the same way as if they charged back.. if you just told them to piss off your ratio would be under 1% becuase most people can't pay that extra 10$ to charge back and won't go thru the hastle to do it.. and have to tell their wife we are charging back a porn site.. if mastercard wants to play dirty.. play right back at them.. because out of 10 people that say they are going to charge back.. only 1 or 2 will

Uh ... I think your assumptions are wrong.

This is a really brilliant plan ... if you want to make the situation much worse.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

that's why i don't run a credit card processing site.. i'd be telling everyone with mastercard to get fucked and this call just cost you another 20$

ok and your point is what? that all cc processors will die?

This isn't a board for surfers man...

There ya go. Good thinking.

Til MC tells you to get fucked and you and all the sites processing through you can't take MC anymore.

Things are changing in the industry fast.

thanks for the heads up, you guys rock!

When the fuck did I ever say it was, 'man'?

In my original post, that you apparently never read, I said *occasionally* I join a paysite. You never heard of a webmaster joining a paysite? :1orglaugh

Webmasters are surfers too.

It's a distinct possibility.

I don't think IBill will die because Intercept has pretty deep pockets.

But I won't be surprized if Ibill dumps adult either. Intercept has stated they're going to work closely with MC and Visa, and that "high risk" adult processing is not a big priority for them.

As for the rest, who knows? I thought Epoch had some deep pockets but, with today's news, that may not be the case.

Unless there's a fundamental change in the industry's attitude toward billing --- which is highly unlikely --- yeah, they might all go under.

Especially if MC cuts them off, as they are threatening to do with Epoch.

I can definetly confirm this. I have more customers calling me to complain about gym memberships than porn memberships. I've seen gyms that continue to rebill months after cancellation, even after registered letters have been sent.

Paycom kicks ass. I am very happy they let everyone know about the payment delay. This shows they are very professional and care about their webmasters instead of leaving us in the dark. I have no problems with waiting a few extra days for payment.

:)

Who cares about gyms? Even if every gym on the planet is the biggest scammer on earth, what difference does it make?

We're in adult. They're not. They can probably get away with it. We can't.

You guys are going to be using the same old gym excuse to your dying day I guess ...

Whine, whine, whine ...

Gyms can scam ... why can't I?

Whine, whine, whine ...

And please don't try to tell me that porn sites are sooooo sqeaky clean on this .... Hah!

:1orglaugh

Ok and if all cc processors go under, what will replace them in this industry? Checks payments?