end of rebills - what would happen... - GoFuckYourself.com

polish_aristocrat · 07-18-2003, 06:16 AM

or if the rumors are true - what will happen ?

end of rebills = end of trials, that's for sure

paysites offering quality service end support to mainatin customers = would happen too

but the general revenue of the industry would probably fall from
$4 billion to $1.5 billion ( or from 3.5 to 1, not sure what are the numbers now )...

many program owners would go out of business and only the strongest ( smartest ) would survive

but do you think that the invisible market hand would take action and since many independent webmasters would't be able to life with such an income drop, they would leave the biz thus leaving more money for those who would be left...

so basically if there're 50 000 webmasters competing for $4 billion, if after the shakeout there will be 20 000 webmasters competing for $1.5, it will mean approx. the same revenue for them as before

any thought on this ?

SportLife · 07-18-2003, 06:18 AM

I think end of rebills won't happen. Many companys who process billing won't take it. Even VISA and/or mastercard won't take it.... they'll loose to much money.

=^..^= · 07-18-2003, 06:20 AM

^agreed

polish_aristocrat · 07-18-2003, 06:20 AM

I hope so !

I think it's time to get drunk

funkmaster · 07-18-2003, 06:21 AM

... aol will get out of buiz within a month time.

chowda · 07-18-2003, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by funkmaster
... aol will get out of buiz within a month time.

is that another prophecy?

=^..^= · 07-18-2003, 06:22 AM

listen to funkmaster - he knows his shoit!

Reak · 07-18-2003, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by polish_aristocrat
I hope so !

I think it's time to get drunk

So early ??

polish_aristocrat · 07-18-2003, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Reak

So early ??

OK, I will wait a few hours if you wish.

funkmaster · 07-18-2003, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chowda

is that another prophecy?

... without reccurings, that is !

chowda · 07-18-2003, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by funkmaster

... without reccurings, that is !

isnt recurring another term for a payment plan... like on cars.
199/month for 36 month

something like.. this website can be urs for 3 easy payments of x dollars?

jimmyf · 07-18-2003, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SportLife
Even VISA and/or mastercard won't take it.... they'll loose to much money.

funkmaster · 07-18-2003, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chowda

isnt recurring another term for a payment plan... like on cars.
199/month for 36 month

something like.. this website can be urs for 3 easy payments of x dollars?

... we could also give then credit for it, like no deposit, no interest for the first 12 month ?

Carrie · 07-18-2003, 06:53 AM

I can see it now.
Small font, hidden in the terms of service -
"if you default on your agreed payment terms of $29.95 per month we have the right to come to your home or place of business and reposess your computer."

Matt_WildCash · 07-18-2003, 07:11 AM

My question is this, how much do you really think VISA makes off the Adult internet Industry??? Rebilling and all that.

4 billion X 1% profit?
(remember processors take most of the cut and so do the banks not visa.)

40 million profit a year for visa? And then they have expenses on top of that with having to hire people to deal with chargebacks and other bullshit.

Am I missing something here? (maybe I am please enlighten me)

Oh and remember that 4 billion a year isn't all going to visa, split off 35% for master card and checking + dialers.

What does visa really make out of this industry and all the processing? Do they really give a rats ass if they one day just pull the plug? Do they really care if they limit the adult industry to no rebills just cause we have so many programs abusing the rebill with cross sells and other bullshit?

gothweb · 07-18-2003, 07:14 AM

I wouldn't be too worried. My old business model, before I started to do what I could to make my sites more affiliate-friendly, mostly consisted of non-rebilling memberships. I was making fine money that way.

tony286 · 07-18-2003, 07:31 AM

I think the sites, that offer quality and high customer service will do well. We have very exclusive content(we produce it ourselves) our members are very loyal. With no recurring I would see a 25% drop off in business. Most of my customers would resign up every month because they are very attached to my wife. Also with all this crap happening ,thats why we got a non high risk merchant account(Mitch from netbilling did a great job for us) to start selling dvd's and videos we will produce. Its time to diversify.

sweetcuties · 07-18-2003, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Driven
My question is this, how much do you really think VISA makes off the Adult internet Industry??? Rebilling and all that.

4 billion X 1% profit?
(remember processors take most of the cut and so do the banks not visa.)

40 million profit a year for visa? And then they have expenses on top of that with having to hire people to deal with chargebacks and other bullshit.

Am I missing something here? (maybe I am please enlighten me)

Oh and remember that 4 billion a year isn't all going to visa, split off 35% for master card and checking + dialers.

What does visa really make out of this industry and all the processing? Do they really give a rats ass if they one day just pull the plug? Do they really care if they limit the adult industry to no rebills just cause we have so many programs abusing the rebill with cross sells and other bullshit?

I agree and very few people are really adressing this... what happens if they say no more... does anyone have a backup plan in place? I'm sorry folks but this is fuckin serious

Cash · 07-18-2003, 09:49 AM

The whole adult biz is built on CC rebills, so there will be no end to rebills.

Matt_WildCash · 07-18-2003, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cash
The whole adult biz is built on CC rebills, so there will be no end to rebills.

It doesn't matter what the adult biz is built on, Visa and MC can do whatever they want. They are a law unto themselfs.

BRISK · 07-18-2003, 10:32 AM

there is a difference between "rebills" and "recurring"

I wouldn't be surprised if we see the end of rebills in 2004 and maybe the end of recurring as well for high-risk transactions

The October 1st deadline of 1% CBs will be a real shake down, so maybe that will be enough of a sacrifice to please the Visa gods? Who knows?

wimpy · 07-18-2003, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK
there is a difference between "rebills" and "recurring"

I can't be the only idiot here who's thinking "what's the difference?"

FlyingIguana · 07-18-2003, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by funkmaster
... aol will get out of buiz within a month time.

it wouldn't affect aol, only high risk merchants like adult

polish_aristocrat · 07-19-2003, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wimpy

I can't be the only idiot here who's thinking "what's the difference?"

I'm not sure too...

perhaps rebilling is also from a trial to a full membership, whereas recurring is only recurring a monthly subscription...

shunga · 07-19-2003, 05:25 AM

An interesting email from UniversalPass:

"As you may have heard Visa/Mastercard have tightened the chargeback restrictions, making reoccurring processing an impossibility. It is for this reason that we are changing our business model as of 8/1/03 and will no longer be rebilling Customers."

I'm not sure how relevant that is across the board, but it makes interesting reading.

BRISK · 07-19-2003, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shunga
An interesting email from UniversalPass:

"As you may have heard Visa/Mastercard have tightened the chargeback restrictions, making reoccurring processing an impossibility. It is for this reason that we are changing our business model as of 8/1/03 and will no longer be rebilling Customers."

I'm not sure how relevant that is across the board, but it makes interesting reading.

Crock of shit excuse.

Matt_WildCash · 07-19-2003, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK

Crock of shit excuse.

Sounds like Universal pass has a high charge back rate and wants to start fresh so they can keep processing, if they don't there bad rebilling of customers for the last few months will keep following them.

Mutt · 07-19-2003, 05:45 AM

here's what i was thinking the other day when considering what would happen if VISA ended recurring billing for adult websites.

many items are sold where you are billed by VISA in installments.
It's not recurring billing, it's a one time charge split into monthly installment. So adult site memberships could be sold for 3 months and 6 months with customers paying 3 or 6 installments of 29.95, as long as you are upfront about it, you can still market the site as 29.95 a month.

of course the scammers would fuck this up too and hide the information about the 3 month or 6 month memberships in a - 2 font, then of course VISA would a year later end installment payments for adult Internet sites.

and so it goes............

KRL · 07-19-2003, 05:45 AM

One thing I'd imagine will happen which of an in itself will have pretty much the same effect as pulling the process completely will be having recurring customers have to validate by e-mail that another month's billing is fine and thus authorized by them.

matulo · 07-19-2003, 05:58 AM

why to leave the pub if you can still get a beer ....

Mutt · 07-19-2003, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by matulo
why to leave the pub if you can still get a beer ....

two possibilities here - one, you have said something very profound and two, you are an imbecile.

Matt_WildCash · 07-19-2003, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mutt
here's what i was thinking the other day when considering what would happen if VISA ended recurring billing for adult websites.

many items are sold where you are billed by VISA in installments.
It's not recurring billing, it's a one time charge split into monthly installment. So adult site memberships could be sold for 3 months and 6 months with customers paying 3 or 6 installments of 29.95, as long as you are upfront about it, you can still market the site as 29.95 a month.

of course the scammers would fuck this up too and hide the information about the 3 month or 6 month memberships in a - 2 font, then of course VISA would a year later end installment payments for adult Internet sites.

and so it goes............

I highly doubt that would work out well, firstly the high chargeback rate is a big concern and billers really don't like doing 6 month memberships or at least rebilling them as they know the chargeback % for those big transactions are to high. And selling a membership to someone is hard enough let along selling them a membership that is in fact a multi month membership.

No real easy solution to it all, but it will be interesting if it does happen what other billing options are setup by our very inovative industry. It will level the playing field a bit thats for sure.

polish_aristocrat · 07-19-2003, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shunga
An interesting email from UniversalPass:

"As you may have heard Visa/Mastercard have tightened the chargeback restrictions, making reoccurring processing an impossibility. It is for this reason that we are changing our business model as of 8/1/03 and will no longer be rebilling Customers."

I'm not sure how relevant that is across the board, but it makes interesting reading.

that's an AVS, right ?

polish_aristocrat · 07-19-2003, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by matulo
why to leave the pub if you can still get a beer ....

but can you survive with 1 beer when you got used to drink at least 4 each time ?

PurelyInsane · 07-19-2003, 07:54 AM

A rebill is when the users card is automatically charged for the second month.. what if the customer clicks on something to request the second charge to his credit card, is that still considered a rebill? They're ordering something with their own money.

Seems like the only ones that lose out are the companies that try to trick people into billing them a second time, when the customer has no intrest to continue his membership. my

polish_aristocrat · 07-19-2003, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PurelyInsane

Seems like the only ones that lose out are the companies that try to trick people into billing them a second time, when the customer has no intrest to continue his membership. my

= the majority of todays big programs

but there're still checks...
if there way only a way to reduce chack-fraud...

Flow · 07-19-2003, 08:08 AM

I a customer wants something badly enough, (i.e. continued access to a site) they will pay for it again and again until they no longer want the service.

I don't see why it is not possible for when the membership expires to have the member taken to a page that tells him that his month is up and to "Click Here" to renew their membership for one month.

I terms of a revenue share program, this could work much the same way it currently does. When that person renews, the affiliate gets their chunk of it. The best part of this type of program is there would be no reason to chargeback the purchase other than if the website sucks and does not offer what is promised on the tour. I see this as a way of greatly reducing the number of chargebacks in the industry.

The bad things I see happening if rebills where to go away is pay per signup will probably be a thing of the past, but it what people say is true, they make just about the same amount of money with a revenue share program so it would not be that big of a deal. Also, all the "Free" AVS systems would be screwed and probably have to go to a paid membership. Trials that turn into full memberships would probably be gone too unless you programed it the same ways as I said before, where they were told their trial was done and to renew it here.

Of course the real reason behind all of this rebill problem is the terms of service for trials IMO. I mean if you read most of them, you have to cancel your membership 24 hours before then end of the trial or you will be charged the full amount. I know it is the consumers fault for not reading the TOS, but that is kinda fishy if you ask me. That's kinda like a car dealer selling you an extended warrenty on a used car and telling you that everything is covered and then you get home and read the terms and find out that you just spent an extra couple of $1000 to make sure your car won't rust.

Flow

Indeed · 07-19-2003, 10:47 AM

if Visa and Mastercard stop rebills, there is still check payment that rebills automatically...maybe checks are the future? who know...

07-18-2003, 06:16 AM	#1
polish_aristocrat Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 40,377	end of rebills - what would happen... or if the rumors are true - what will happen ? end of rebills = end of trials, that's for sure paysites offering quality service end support to mainatin customers = would happen too but the general revenue of the industry would probably fall from $4 billion to $1.5 billion ( or from 3.5 to 1, not sure what are the numbers now )... many program owners would go out of business and only the strongest ( smartest ) would survive but do you think that the invisible market hand would take action and since many independent webmasters would't be able to life with such an income drop, they would leave the biz thus leaving more money for those who would be left... so basically if there're 50 000 webmasters competing for $4 billion, if after the shakeout there will be 20 000 webmasters competing for $1.5, it will mean approx. the same revenue for them as before any thought on this ? __________________ I don't use ICQ anymore.

07-18-2003, 06:18 AM	#2
SportLife Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 94	I think end of rebills won't happen. Many companys who process billing won't take it. Even VISA and/or mastercard won't take it.... they'll loose to much money. __________________ Blow Your Mind, SportLife. Icq: 331073439

07-18-2003, 06:20 AM	#3
=^..^= Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: ICQ 380-366 Posts: 6,935	^agreed __________________ #RememberYourRoots #AaronMForGFYHOF

07-18-2003, 06:20 AM	#4
polish_aristocrat Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 40,377	I hope so ! I think it's time to get drunk __________________ I don't use ICQ anymore.

07-18-2003, 06:22 AM	#7
=^..^= Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: ICQ 380-366 Posts: 6,935	listen to funkmaster - he knows his shoit! __________________ #RememberYourRoots #AaronMForGFYHOF

07-18-2003, 06:21 AM	#5
funkmaster So Fucking Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: shell beach Posts: 7,938	... aol will get out of buiz within a month time.

07-18-2003, 06:53 AM	#14
Carrie Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Virgin - nee Posts: 3,162	I can see it now. Small font, hidden in the terms of service - "if you default on your agreed payment terms of $29.95 per month we have the right to come to your home or place of business and reposess your computer."

07-18-2003, 07:11 AM	#15
Matt_WildCash Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,699	My question is this, how much do you really think VISA makes off the Adult internet Industry??? Rebilling and all that. 4 billion X 1% profit? (remember processors take most of the cut and so do the banks not visa.) 40 million profit a year for visa? And then they have expenses on top of that with having to hire people to deal with chargebacks and other bullshit. Am I missing something here? (maybe I am please enlighten me) Oh and remember that 4 billion a year isn't all going to visa, split off 35% for master card and checking + dialers. What does visa really make out of this industry and all the processing? Do they really give a rats ass if they one day just pull the plug? Do they really care if they limit the adult industry to no rebills just cause we have so many programs abusing the rebill with cross sells and other bullshit?

07-18-2003, 07:14 AM	#16
gothweb Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Back in the USSA Posts: 8,849	I wouldn't be too worried. My old business model, before I started to do what I could to make my sites more affiliate-friendly, mostly consisted of non-rebilling memberships. I was making fine money that way. __________________ Photos by Ian X.: Distinctive photos of goth babes. Blood Money:Your traffic, my sites, our money. MojoHost: Still the best.

07-18-2003, 07:31 AM	#17
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	I think the sites, that offer quality and high customer service will do well. We have very exclusive content(we produce it ourselves) our members are very loyal. With no recurring I would see a 25% drop off in business. Most of my customers would resign up every month because they are very attached to my wife. Also with all this crap happening ,thats why we got a non high risk merchant account(Mitch from netbilling did a great job for us) to start selling dvd's and videos we will produce. Its time to diversify.

07-18-2003, 09:49 AM	#19
Cash Click on my TCG signature Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 20,825	The whole adult biz is built on CC rebills, so there will be no end to rebills. __________________ $9.95/month for 15000 GB bandwidth monthly, unlimited (sub)domains and MySQL5, PHP4/5, 500 GB disk storage! ; use any of these invitation codes: 216263692101; 408636009193; 846090586647; my ICQ 30160426!

07-18-2003, 10:32 AM	#21
BRISK Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,240	there is a difference between "rebills" and "recurring" I wouldn't be surprised if we see the end of rebills in 2004 and maybe the end of recurring as well for high-risk transactions The October 1st deadline of 1% CBs will be a real shake down, so maybe that will be enough of a sacrifice to please the Visa gods? Who knows? __________________ I post on GFY so that when people ask me what I do, I can tell them that I work with the mentally retarded.

07-19-2003, 05:25 AM	#25
shunga Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Loveland Posts: 994	An interesting email from UniversalPass: "As you may have heard Visa/Mastercard have tightened the chargeback restrictions, making reoccurring processing an impossibility. It is for this reason that we are changing our business model as of 8/1/03 and will no longer be rebilling Customers." I'm not sure how relevant that is across the board, but it makes interesting reading. __________________ Clockwork Cash - ICQ: 355-26-288 / Email: admin AT clockworkcash DOT com Asian Paysites : Exclusive Content : NATS or CCBill Thai Cuties : Shave Asians : JAVondemand

07-19-2003, 05:45 AM	#28
Mutt Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 34,431	here's what i was thinking the other day when considering what would happen if VISA ended recurring billing for adult websites. many items are sold where you are billed by VISA in installments. It's not recurring billing, it's a one time charge split into monthly installment. So adult site memberships could be sold for 3 months and 6 months with customers paying 3 or 6 installments of 29.95, as long as you are upfront about it, you can still market the site as 29.95 a month. of course the scammers would fuck this up too and hide the information about the 3 month or 6 month memberships in a - 2 font, then of course VISA would a year later end installment payments for adult Internet sites. and so it goes............ __________________ I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!

07-19-2003, 05:45 AM	#29
KRL Entrepreneur Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: USA Posts: 31,429	One thing I'd imagine will happen which of an in itself will have pretty much the same effect as pulling the process completely will be having recurring customers have to validate by e-mail that another month's billing is fine and thus authorized by them. __________________ If you would like to develop your domains, you can lease inexpensive foreign labor from the leaders in the field at iWebmasters.com TO LOWER YOUR COSTS AND INCREASE YOUR PRODUCTION! * * * * * * * * * * * * Domains Adult News KRL's Newsletter Biz Tips Just Listed Domains

07-19-2003, 05:58 AM	#30
matulo Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 116	why to leave the pub if you can still get a beer .... __________________ I don't give a shit.

07-19-2003, 07:54 AM	#35
PurelyInsane Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 49	A rebill is when the users card is automatically charged for the second month.. what if the customer clicks on something to request the second charge to his credit card, is that still considered a rebill? They're ordering something with their own money. Seems like the only ones that lose out are the companies that try to trick people into billing them a second time, when the customer has no intrest to continue his membership. my

07-19-2003, 08:08 AM	#37
Flow Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 518	I a customer wants something badly enough, (i.e. continued access to a site) they will pay for it again and again until they no longer want the service. I don't see why it is not possible for when the membership expires to have the member taken to a page that tells him that his month is up and to "Click Here" to renew their membership for one month. I terms of a revenue share program, this could work much the same way it currently does. When that person renews, the affiliate gets their chunk of it. The best part of this type of program is there would be no reason to chargeback the purchase other than if the website sucks and does not offer what is promised on the tour. I see this as a way of greatly reducing the number of chargebacks in the industry. The bad things I see happening if rebills where to go away is pay per signup will probably be a thing of the past, but it what people say is true, they make just about the same amount of money with a revenue share program so it would not be that big of a deal. Also, all the "Free" AVS systems would be screwed and probably have to go to a paid membership. Trials that turn into full memberships would probably be gone too unless you programed it the same ways as I said before, where they were told their trial was done and to renew it here. Of course the real reason behind all of this rebill problem is the terms of service for trials IMO. I mean if you read most of them, you have to cancel your membership 24 hours before then end of the trial or you will be charged the full amount. I know it is the consumers fault for not reading the TOS, but that is kinda fishy if you ask me. That's kinda like a car dealer selling you an extended warrenty on a used car and telling you that everything is covered and then you get home and read the terms and find out that you just spent an extra couple of $1000 to make sure your car won't rust. Flow

07-19-2003, 10:47 AM	#38
Indeed Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,892	if Visa and Mastercard stop rebills, there is still check payment that rebills automatically...maybe checks are the future? who know...