xxxuniversity

Here's my response:

CCBILL is full of dipshits or criminals or dipshit criminals! CCBill now informs me that any affiliate revenue I generate will be withheld unless I provide information that unnecessarily places my identity at risk. The excuse provided is that this is to curtail money laundering. This isn't a bank account. It's not even a CCBill merchant account. It's an affiliate account. I make no deposits whatsoever. As an affiliate, the origin of any affiliate commissions paid to me would be....CCBill. Literally, CCBill is objectively saying that the very act of CCBill paying affiliates the affiliate commission earned is, ipso facto, money laundering.........UNLESS the affiliate places their identity risk, at which time it ceases to be money laundering.

From CCBill's own website: "Policymakers around the world want to ensure that capital obtained from illicit activities does not enter legitimate financial flows." As a CCBill affiliate, I have nothing to do with the origin of affiliate commissions! The origin would be the people paying CCBill merchants! Does CCBill demand customers of paysites scan and email their passports and utility bills?

Also from CCBill's own website: "Implementing KYC guidelines enables financial institutions to prevent criminals from using their services and concealing the origin of their earnings." How could I possibly conceal the origin of affiliate commissions? CCBill knows the origin of affiliate commissions better than I do! After all, it's CCBill that disburses the affiliate commissions! Is CCBill accusing itself of engaging in money laundering?* See: ccbill.com/kb/what-is-kyc

It's impossible for me to launder funds through my CCBill affiliate account. That said, CCBill could launder funds through my affiliate account. It's an account that CCBill pays me from. Is CCBill accusing itself of engaging in money laundering? If so, how does CCBill seeing my personal information prevent that? Withholding my affiliate payments while demanding to see a plurality of personal information in order to pay me affiliate commissions is, itself, the most questionable activity.* It could very well precipitate both identity theft and the laundering of funds by CCBill. If CCBill won't pay me the affiliate revenue I earn, what is CCBill going to do with the funds?

I've already replied to CCBill explaining this from my registered account email address. That should be more than sufficient to update a payment address. Do you think I would ask CCBill to send my affiliate commission payments to somebody else's address? CCBill would be issuing a check in my name. Why would I want a check issued in my name sent to somebody else anyways? And even if I did want a check sent to somebody else, wouldn't that be a generous act on my part? Why would that need to be stopped? That's called charity.

Regardless of where the affiliate commission check goes to, for it to be cashed, the person cashing the check would have to transact with a bank. In order to do so, they would have to show ID. Or else they are using their bank, which required them to present all of these documents to open up an account. Is my bank's "verification" of me not sufficient?

To be clear, it is my address I used, but it's not my home address. I don't use my home address for affiliate commission payments, and it is for perfectly legitimate reasons. Maybe some people prefer some privacy from prying eyes over adult related activity. The same reason I wouldn't set up a web camera in my shower for CCBill to pay me my affiliate revenue! But most importantly is that I have had an issue with mail theft. I tried providing CCBill with my PO Box, but CCBill rejected that on the basis CCBill doesn't allow affiliates to get paid using PO Boxes. Even my actual bank - where I do make deposits - allows me to use a PO Box!

So then I provided another mailbox of mine that isn't a PO Box. That seems to work. But now I must provide a plurality of documentation that places my identity at risk. I am also being told I must provide documentation that, quite frankly, doesn't exist, because I don't have utilities at this mailbox address I use. But, again, seeing this documentation CCBill is requesting does nothing to curtail or stop money laundering, since the only party that could be engaged in money laundering by disbursing affiliate commission payments is CCBill. It does, however, undermine basic privacy and enhances the risk of identity theft.

Furthermore, even if CCBill sent the check to my address only after seeing all of this documentation, what is to stop me from signing the check over to somebody else? Is CCBill going to send an agent to my house to monitor me 24/7 to ensure I don't do such a thing, as if doing so is inherently bad and something CCBill needs to stop? If not, this is altogether chimerical for CCBill to use the explanation it is using.

Or why not require anybody who subscribes to a CCBill merchant website - which is where funds actually come from -* to show their passport and a utility bill? After all, could not a person make payments to a CCBill website as a cover for money laundering? But to receive affiliate commissions? CCBill is either brain dead or CCBill is the guilty party, and now they want to steal identification.

I hate to give CCBill pointers on how to perfect their fraud, but it would be less concerning if CCBill said they needed to see identification to verify the account hasn't been taken over by another individual, in order to protect the affiliate. That's because I could see verifying 1) The affiliate is a legal adult and 2) The affiliate's account hasn't been taken over by another party. But a utility bill to verify the payment address? It's not only unnecessary, but, at that point, CCBill is collecting enough information to harm the affiliate. It's especially absurd when we are talking about an affiliate account that has been opened for over 20 years. I'm the same person I was 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 years ago. Once the affiliate has verified that it's the affiliate making the account changes by verifying identity, the affiliate should be able to use whatever address the affiliate wishes to receive a payment. There is no need whatsoever to see a utility bill to disburse affiliate payments! Which prompts the question: what's the need to know the affiliate's actual home address, except to inflict damage?

Especially since this is an affiliate account and not a merchant account, I'm compelled to wonder if CCBill might actually be facilitating money laundering. CCBill is in the business of both withholding affiliate commissions and acquiring enough information to open up an actual bank/merchant account in the name of the affiliate victim.

What CCBill is doing undermines privacy. What it doesn't do is curtail money laundering. This threat by CCBill to not pay me affiliate commissions means I am going to stop promoting CCBill programs, and I strongly encourage every webmaster to stop partnering with CCBill. This documentation will not be forthcoming. CCBill should reconsider its ways.

------END OF MY RESPONSE

UPDATE: I just updated the payout method to ACH, with the deposits going to my checking account at a U.S. bank There is now truly no need for CCBill to see any documentation, and if CCBill still insists upon seeing my personal information to release payments, then I will be compelled to accuse CCBill of facilitating fraud. Why else would CCBill need to see that information other than to facilitate fraud? After all, it's a U.S. bank account the funds would be sent to, and I can guarantee you that my bank has already "verified" me.

UPDATE: CCBill replied to me explaining everything I explained above to them, telling me that they must see all of this documentation in order to disburse affiliate commissions. In other words, CCBill is now refusing to disburse affiliate commissions on an affiliate account I've had for over 20 years, with the payments going directly to a U.S. bank account, which required me to be "verified" by my bank in order to open!

UPDATE: Not only has CCBill maintained that they must see all of these documents in order to disburse payments, with the excuse being to curtail money laundering, but in their latest response they cite my "empty threats", saying that they won't change despite my "empty threats". ALL of my communication with CCBill has been in writing. I wrote to CCBill explaining exactly what I explained above. At no time have I threatened anybody. The only "threat" I can think of is me saying I would stop promoting CCBill. That's not empty. I am now officially done promoting any site that uses CCBill. Have a nice day, CCBill!

CurrentlySober

Dude its 2024 - People legally NEED to be able to say that they have seen and checked this information - Its KYC - Happens all over the world...

Big deal. If you really are scared about showing a utility bill ect, just form an LLC - Not difficult or expensive, and get paid through that.

When you opened your account 20 odd years ago, these restrictions were not in place. Now, as you are changing your info, you are triggering these requirements. It's not like ccBill woke up today and decided to fuck with you. They have ways that they have to operate legally enforced on them. Really... No biggy...

JesseQuinn

if you've already made up your mind then cool, I'm not gonna try and change it

just letting you know that laws world-wide have changed drastically over the past 20 years since you opened your CCBill account

it probably only got flagged when you contacted them requesting the payment method change


not saractic when writing, good luck finding a legit sponsor in any major nation that doesn't do KYC

a photo ID and utility bill are pretty par for the course, although not sure if all also require the proof of address. maybe a European can weigh in on that

in the US where CCBill is located, proof of address is absolutely required for compliance

here's more info on the topic, it also includes a list of the major nations which have some variation on KYC:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer


after 20 years no doubt this is all a surprise, but honestly it's par for the course now. I get your privacy concerns but honestly, CCBill is just following the law. sucks but it is what it is


edit: CS and I were posting at the same time...

__________________
throwing molotav cocktails at the precinct

mopek1

It is bullshit and all ridiculous excuses as to why they need your info. All these companies should just say 1 of 2 things:

1. We want your info so we can sell it.

2. Governments now require this and use money laundering as their excuse so we have no choice.

...

JesseQuinn

it's number 2 (don't get all excited CS, I don't mean it that way)

when CCBill writes 'for KYC compliance' they're referencing your second option exactly

whether one agrees with the laws or not, personally I wouldn't want to do biz with a company that didn't comply with them. those that don't all get busted, funds frozen and/or shut down eventually. then guess what happens to your money?

think of Chexx/Pacnet and Epassporte and how many other co's that fucked around, got busted and every single well-intentioned person or entity using their services was caught up in the process

I'd be really wary of dealing with any biz that doesn't comply with the laws in their jurisdiction of operation. for those that don't, the walls come tumbling down eventually

it's not a matter of whether CCBill agrees with KYC or not (I have no clue obviously). they're simply being a responsible biz by following the law

maybe that's why they've been around so long?

__________________
throwing molotav cocktails at the precinct

plsureking

my buddy opens a paysite and i open an affiliate account set at 70% revshare (max). we funnel all sales thru the affiliate account, meaning his own income is only 15% net after fees. you are depositing offshore, or have some random ass wire account, bang bang easy money laundering.

its not that fucking hard to figure out and people in this biz have been doing it on a massive scale for decades. now they are locking it all down. either get your papers right or figure out another income stream that doesn't require kyc. maybe Libyan bitcoin scams?

#

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#

mopek1

Yeah, maybe technically it's money laundering. But we all know that the 'real' money laundering doesn't come from adult/mainstream affiliate programs lol.

We also all know that the government rules are not there to stop money laundering. Governments make laws for 2 reasons:

1. To gain more control and power. Not to control the world in an evil way but politicians are addicted to the power they can wield, whether it's daycare reform or masks or guns or the environment. Simply feeling like you are powerful to control a nation is a drug for them.

2. They made deals with other parties to get kickbacks ($) in some form, or to get more votes next election (pleasing the electorate somehow).

Those are the only 2 things any government cares about.

If you think any politician cares about you or money laundering you need to really look harder. There are maybe a handful who care, most are just looking for a way to be powerful and relevant and rich.

CurrentlySober

Awww...

I can still dream though

__________________

2 Kings 18:27

JesseQuinn

not gonna agrue that KYC can rightfully feel intrusive to those concerned about their privacy

but your quoted passage above is not true

when PacNet got shut down so did all their subsidiary companies. plus the bank that held Chexx funds (Belize-based Choice Bank)

I used one of the PacNet subsidiaries, Chexx, to send payments to my contractors who worked with me in my business

all of a sudden BOOM, all my funds in Chexx (well over 9k due to be sent out to my people for that week) frozen

so no way to pay my people and my US bank closed my business bank account for sending money to Chexx. meaning no way to even receive the daily payments from my MID. I was paying everyone in every way I could out of my own pocket for weeks

had to fly to the US to open a new account at a diff bank, as the one bank that allowed me to open one without visting a branch was the bank that shut me down (BMO Harris). they're a good bank, not blaming them. just another stressor on top of an already stressful situation

was a super-fun time. complete nightmare


I eventually got paid back by the Choice Bank liquidators of PacNet (what was ironic was I was living in Belize at the time this all went down) but my last installment payment was only a few months ago. over 7 years later

so yeah, first hand experience that this stuff does go down. they eventually get busted, crash, and you as the person using their services ethically gets fucked over too. hard


@Mopek, as a Canadian you can still open an LLC in the US as CS recommended. I'm Canadian too. Delaware for example like all states requires someone in the state to act as the register in the state, but Delaware allows you to use a Registered Agent, which costs a couple hundred bucks a year to maintain. not sure about other states, but Delaware, definitely

that's your corporate address. your articles of incorporation will reflect that, and it complies with KYC

simple and pretty cheap. the company that set everything up for me (corp and registered agent) was shockingly inexpensive (and super-helpful at every step)


again, not disputing your opionion regarding a power grab for more individual info by the gov, but if you carry a phone your location is always being tracked by cell towers anyway


but yeah, super-easy to open a US LLC from anywhere. you don't need to be American. I'm sure for European nations there's something similar if they prefer the EUR currency

__________________
throwing molotav cocktails at the precinct

jscott

KYC regulations will require more and more as time goes on, glad to see some people willing to push back. I can understand why some of the information is needed but not all. People should not just fall over to anything the gov/regulators require of them, they need to ask questions, be fair, resist if necessary (if they're overreaching their authority).

Our private data staying private is for our own safety.

__________________
“If you think tough men are dangerous, wait until you see what weak men are capable of.”
—Jordan B. Peterson

SpicyM

Nah, that's tax fraud.

Money laundering would be something like this:

My buddy is a drug dealer but he wants to look like he runs a serious business with legal income. So he opens 10 bank accounts (friends, family members or fake IDs might help too) in different banks, receives 10 debit cards and loads each account with $500 every week. Nobody is going to ask about those $500 as that's too low sum of cash. He creates a ccbill affiliate account and opens a stupid ass blog with affiliate links on it.

He then "spends" all the money on various ccbill pay sites (ideally cam sites) using his own ccbill affiliate links and receives his affiliate cut. This way he earns perfectly clean money and if someone asks him what does he do for living - well he runs a successful blog.

After getting paid his affiliate money, he could ask for a chargeback on all those cards. Then ask the banks to issue him new cards, create a new ccbill affiliate account under another name and repeat. But since ccbill now verifies identities, it would be hard for him to create another account again, hence the KYC.

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plsureking

sounds like the same story with more steps

plus a splash of cc fraud at the end

#

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#

SpicyM

Actually, there are less steps in my story. The difference is that you don't need a friend with a paysite. Also, the paysite and the affiliate account would be two separate businesses subjected to control and taxation. Much more complicated.

If they wanted to launder money the way you described, funneling sales through the affiliate account would be unnecessary. They could simply buy membership on their own paysite and pretend those fake users are their regular customers.

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The Porn Nerd

OP is not legit and his crazy-ass response proves it. If I were CCBill I would ban his account just based on his communication.

ID and valid address is NOT excessive (or a crusade for privacy). OP sounds mega-fishy to me with all his objections.

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Over 90 paysites to promote!
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blackmonsters

I provided all those things to Paxum to get paid and it worked.
Then they cancelled my account because I live in USA.

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femdomdestiny

Exactly. What is even more frustrating is how easily people are accepting all this crap without asking a question. Control is the only thing why this is done. No one sees that one morning they will wake up and won't be sure are they in China , considering control and rules imposed by government structures.

__________________
Femdom Destiny


--------------------------------------------
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email: webmaster(at)femdomdestiny.com

xxxuniversity

Right. I understand the government is pushing companies into doing this. Either way, that doesn't make right. There was a presidential candidate (Ron Paul) who spoke about the dangers of using a single identifier known as a Social Security Number for everything. It's that we all use a single identifier that enables identity thieves to steal people's identity. If each different institution had its own unique identifier, that would make it much harder for identity thieves.

Everything happening is making identity theft much more common. As if every CCBill employee is honest and ethical? As if information isn't vulnerable to hacking and ending up in the wrong hands, even unintentionally.

2257 Laws are ridiculous as well. Think about this paradox. If you want to photograph a woman nude, you are required to collect all of her personal information, her ID, obtain a signed release form, etc. This is supposedly to cut back on illegal pornography. That's a rubbish excuse. It doesn't stop illegal pornography. It just creates a new crime: failing to collect and retain all of the woman's personal information, thereby making another crime (identity theft) easier. Now, if you want to have actual sex with that same woman, as long as you don't photograph her, you need not obtain copies of her ID and personal information. Yet, pursuant to the calculus used to justify 2257 laws, why not compel every person to retain the ID and a release form for everybody they have sex with, and if the person doesn't do that, the parties involved in sex should be charged with a crime. After all, it could help "cut down" on child molestation!

xxxuniversity

Right. Just because government requires something doesn't make it right. These laws don't stop actual crimes. They merely create new classes of crimes, where the failure to collect and obtain personal information becomes the crime. In the name of stopping one crime, it is facilitating and enable a new one: identity theft. And identity theft is usually associated with some of fraud.

There was a presidential candidate named Ron Paul who spoke about the use of a single identifier, the Social Security Number, by every company and institution makes people more vulnerable to identity theft.

Another set of laws that make zero sense and are helping to facilitate identity theft are 2257 laws. I'm all against illegal pornography. But 2257 laws don't curtail illegal pornography. It just creates a new crime: failing to obtain and retain personal information of the model. 2257 laws do, once again, help facilitate and enable identity theft. Think about the paradox here. In order to photograph a woman naked, the photography/producer needs to obtain and retain personal identification and release documents. But if, instead, it was a meeting for sex instead of photography/modeling, nobody has to obtain and retain personal information of the other party to prove they aren't child molestors. Isn't actual sex with a person a greater act than mere photography of a person? By the calculus used to justify 2257 laws, everybody who has sex should have to retain the other person's ID and get a release form to prove they aren't guilty of rape.

xxxuniversity

I've heard nothing but bad things about Paxum. It's why I don't have a Paxum account. So many people naively believe because an entity is a business, somehow that makes it inherently honest and ethical. Especially when you have a really large company like CCBill. Not everybody with CCBill is honest and ethical. But even if everybody at CCBill and Paxum were honest and ethical, the more information that has to be transmitted, collected, and retained, the more likely that information can fall into the wrong hands, even unintentionally on the part of the business that collected it. There are hackers and hacking.

ID requirements don't make people any more honest nor does it make an underlying activity any better. Either the underlying activity is good or bad. What the information retention statutes do accomplish is creating whole new crimes, where the failure to collect and retain that information itself becomes the crime.

So to all those people who cheer on this kind of stuff, here's what you are saying: if a business fails to collect and retain personal information, the business should be shut down and people should get into legal trouble for such an act.

And the ultimate irony is that it is the collection and retention of everybody's personal information that is enabling identity thieves, and identity theft is usually juxtaposed with some form of fraud.

SpicyM

No, it's the massive amount of criminals operating online.

When you form a company or do business as a sole trader, your name and home address is freely accessible in a public registry - so what's the point of being anxious about verifying your address with the company that pays you? The only extra bit of info they get is your photo.

Every single model has her IDs captured, stored and often transferred to third parties for the rest of her life and in connection with her nude pictures. I am surprised that people now complain about this.

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xxxuniversity

What you describe, if meant to launder money, would actually increase the chances of being "discovered", not to mention raise costs. As we can all see, CCBill is collecting personal information not just for merchants, but also for affiliates! By the time CCBill disburses funds to merchants and affiliates, CCBill's percentage has been taken out. So why would a person take "dirty" money and run it through yet an additional channel that increases the chances of getting caught as well as causing the person to lose money in the process.

That's not a way to "clean" so called "dirty" money. That's a way to lose money and increase the chances of getting caught. What a criminal would do would be to start a legitimate business (e.g. a paysite) to try to make it appear they are doing something honest. So they would use the "dirty" money to start the "clean" business. They wouldn't funnel money to themselves by running it through an additional channel, even losing a percentage in the process. They would be using the money to pay for web hosting, content, etc.

xxxuniversity

Is being an affiliate and generating affiliate revenue an "illicit" business? If so, merely showing ID to CCBill doesn't make it lesser so. Either being an affiliate webmaster is an "illicit" business or it isn't.

Huggles

__________________
I make my money from people jerking off

xxxuniversity

Okay. And is being an affiliate webmaster, generating revenue through CCBill's affiliate program, a criminal or illicit activity? Because if it's not, then not showing ID doesn't make it any less of a legal activity. If it is, no amount of ID should make it legal.

Or are you saying that it's CCBill's job to police everybody on the internet, and make sure they don't pay somebody affiliate commissions who is engaged in some other illegal activity? That's CCBill's job? What is it the affiliate is doing? Because if the affiliate is committing a criminal act somewhere or in someway, there are other ways to report those crimes. SOmehow, by presenting ID to CCBill means those other crimes are suddenly okay, and not presenting ID to CCBill gets the person caught for completely separate and unrelated crimes?

There is no logical justification for big government like this.

xxxuniversity

So you are that cognitively deficient that you are incapable of understanding the purposelessness of such requirements? Because I can understand CCBill because the government forces them to do so. But even so, I would expect that even somebody working at CCBill - and you- should be able to concede that's why it's being done. You don't understand how the requirements are actually facilitating and enabling identity theft? And identify theft is more often than not associated with some type of fraud.

The point being is even if this has to be done, there's no reason anybody shouldn't be able to understand the problems and objections. And if CCBill did take the approach advocate, that would only indicate to me that they don't take the negatives seriously enough to be trusted with anybody's information.

The thing that gets me here is the excuse given to justify this usually runs something like this: criminals and criminal organizations do bad things. Again, let me ask this question: is being an affiliate webmaster and collecting affiliate revenue through CCBill a criminal or illicit act? Either that's a criminal act or not, and no amount of ID makes it any less criminal and failing to show ID doesn't make it more criminal. What people seem to really miss is that not only are there individual, lower level criminals, but there is such a thing as organized crime. To be clear, I'm not saying CCBill is guilty of carrying out the fraud itself. But these practices certainly make CCBill - and not just CCBill, but every organization doing this - an enabler of identity thieves. That said, one can't discount the possibility that even a bigger company could be a front for organized crime. It doesn't have to be at the webmaster level. It could go above that. As they say, the organized crimes use "dirty" money to start a "legitimate" business. It doesn't have to be a porn website! It could be a payment processing company, too!

Again, to be clear, I don't make any specific accusations against CCBill. My position is that the practice of collecting this information for this reason/purpose, while legal, is itself criminal and and enabling criminals.

If it was for a merchant account I had with CCBill, I could better understand the requirements. But for an affiliate account, it makes no sense.

xxxuniversity

Hi. I am writing because I don't see a way to directly edit my posts and I wanted to redact and/or add this disclaimer as a preface to my post about CCBill ID requirements for affiliates, Part 2:

Let me preface this by making it clear that I am not accusing CCBill of a specific criminal act. My position is that the collection of personal information (mandated by government or not, legal or not), for the purpose and reason given, does nothing to stop any real underlying crime (unless you believe being an affiliate webmaster is ipso facto criminal activity), but only enhances the risk of identity theft, which is usually juxtaposed with some type of fraud, making the policy an enabler of criminal activity.

xxxuniversity

And what does that accomplish? As if anything you mentioned (e.g. 70% reveshare and a friend having an overseas bank account) is somehow evil or even criminal in nature.

Are you suggesting that the website owner plans to get paid out of these funds and is trying to avoid taxation? Because if so, somehow, some way the funds would have to come to back to the website owner. The affiliate overseas forwards the funds to him. If it's over $10,000, it gets reported to the IRS. If it is less than $10,000, it gets reported for "suspicious activity" (i.e. structuring). The point being, nothing is anonymous in banking. So the "scheme" you mentioned is no scheme at all.

Ironically, many people here seem to hold the position that if you are a registered LLC, somehow you can suddenly go from being dishonest and a criminal to being honest and ethical, yet it's more likely somebody is engaged in tax avoidance (as if the government deserves to gets its hands on every last dime anyways) through the very act of registering business entities. And how many scam companies actually register their companies where they can maintain a certain amount of anonymity.

So take the same scenario you mention, but leave out the second person. The webmaster opens a business entity overseas in a tax friendly jurisdiction. Well you know what the problem is here? Not that people manage to find ways to avoid taxation. It's that the U.S. governments too big and too large and taxes too much. You want people to stay in the United States, stop paying for empire.

xxxuniversity

And why would he need to use affiliate links to do that? Furthermore, to have a merchant account with CCBill, one needs to be "verified". So if the person was doing something criminal, you are conceding that KYC and AML laws do nothing to stop crime.

But not only that, nothing you describe being done is illegal. I'm not a fan of taking perfectly legal activity that harms nobody and making it illegal in the name of stopping some other underlying crime. According to this very scenario you describe, there was some other illegal activity. ID checks by CCBill won't stop that. What's the other underlying criminal activity this person is involved in? Eventually, they will be discovered for that underlying criminal activity.

All KYC and AML laws do is criminalize non criminal acts. No amount of ID checking will make dishonest people honest. Furthermore, I would say that most criminals wouldn't go into the adult webmaster business to try to mask "dirty" money. The adult industry is too high risk and invites too much unwelcome attention.

The Porn Nerd

I understand perfectly the issues you laid out here but, in the end, you either comply and get your affiliate cut or you do not comply and stand on principle. If you are fine with not getting paid by CCBill as an affiliate then good for you! But understanding the reasons behind the requirements does nothing. In the end, it's comply or die.

Or start your own billing company! That seems to be the trend when you go to the shows.

__________________
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Over 90 paysites to promote!
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Robbie

KYC is something that BANKS are required to do.
Not porn sites and affiliate accounts.

The OP is correct. It's ridiculous.

I've had to go through this shit over and over with programs (I still promote over a hundred of them).
To tell me that they need my COMPANY PAPERS (listing of officers, incorporation papers, etc.) just to send them traffic and get paid?
It IS bullshit. And yet they do just that.
Demand to know everything about my company.

There are NO laws saying that companies have the right or legal obligation to ask for your companies paperwork in order to pay out your money to you.

Especially in my case where I have a company that is 18 years old, they have my EIN, and they pay out to my business checking account at a United States bank that already did all the KYC (as required by Federal regulations).

I honestly think that it's bad legal advice from lawyers who are over-doing it for these companies.

But if anyone here can show me a law that says my company has to show it's incorporation papers to another corporation just to get paid...please feel free.
Because if that's the case...then you would need to see the car dealerships business incorporation papers in order to pay them for a car. Or McDonalds' incorporation papers to pay them for a hamburger. It's stupid.

It's actually the people PAYING you who would be the ones needing to show where the money came from. Not the person supplying the services to be paid for (the traffic and sales).

In the end...NONE of us are "customers" to these porn sites affiliate programs. We are PARTNERS.

But again...if anyone can show one law or regulation saying that one company has to be able to go over another companies private papers in order to pay out to a Federally regulated bank account in the U.S., please show me.

__________________
-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

fuzebox

Huggles

I think Robbie and OP have exposed something we haven't taken into consideration... what if all this shit is just a carefully orchestrated plot by lawyers and equally-scummy folk to milk information, leech money, and mine data from everyone in the business?

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Robbie

There's no "plot", it's just more lawyers scaring the shit out of companies.

I remember back in the 1990's when we were advised by attorneys that running links to fisting galleries, trans galleries and watersports galleries was illegal on AL4A and Ampland.

They wanted us to take down those entire categories on those 2 sites!!!

We told them they were idiots and never looked back. I guess they felt like they needed to keep doing something all the time to "earn" their retainer. So they were looking for possible problems that didn't exist.

I'd say this is more about lawyers scaring their clients and telling them to CYA by using KYC. lol

__________________
-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

mopek1

Thanks for clearing this up. So many people want so bad for others to comply with 'authority' in life it's pretty sad.

xxxuniversity

I replied to this message previously, but I realize I was mistaken. I was writing very fast and try to reply to things very fast, and in my hastiness, I realize I said that there was no crime in the scenario you provide. Indeed, there is a crime in the scenario you provide. It would be called credit/debit card fraud with the chargebacks.

That said, my other point about KYC and AML statutes not stopping any real crimes, but instead creating a new set of crimes (e.g. failure to collect, obtain and maintain records) I believe still stands. We can list any number of crimes, and no matter how many crimes we list in this thread (everything from rape to murder to fraud), I don't believe it does anything to demonstrate that the KYC and AML procedures are effective at all. After all, if they were, then crime should be going way down year after year.

The scenario you provide I don't believe would be a very effective way to carry out credit card fraud. I'm sure CCBill has ways - by delaying affiliate payments - to prevent what you describe. Regardless, eventually the person is going to suffer some consequences by attempting to do the same thing repeatedly (which they would have to do in order to make anything substantial, since you are talking about affiliate commissions which are very low as a percentage). By using their own affiliate links, they increase the chances of getting caught. When one affiliate has a chargeback rate of nearly 100%, I'm sure that would raise a red flag with CCBill.

xxxuniversity

You really hit the nail on the head. When I wrote the original post, I did so kind of fast without proofreading. If I had to word things slightly differently, I would. For example, towards the end when I write about the absurdity of having to submit a utility bill, and then I write about how CCBill getting my actual home addres and how that can be used to inflict harm by somebody.

Here's a good way to crystallize the problem with this all. As you point, not only are affiliates not customers, as CCBill pays the affiliate for traffic (which makes CCBill the customer of the affiliate), making KYC/AML arguments absurd, but I would add that there's a fatal flaw embedded into the very requirements and methods to satisfy the test.

Think about what CCBill is saying and asking to be done. And this applies to not just CCBill, but across the board. I could satisfy the KYC/AML test remotely by electronically transmitting a selfie with my passport and a copy of my utility bill. If I can satisfy the test by doing so, anybody who manages to get copies of what I transmit can do the same thing with what I send. It's an inherently hackable test. The very methods used to "authenticate" are causing the proliferation of identity theft.

So it isn't so much about just finding out my home address. It's more about having to submit all of that documentation together (for a senseless purpose), to include a copy of a utility bill. Once I were to transmit that information, I've just needlessly and senselessly transmitted enough for somebody to do the same thing in my name by using what I transmitted. After all, CCBill already has my SSN.

As I was thinking about this more, I was thinking about possible solutions to the fatal flaw embedded within the very test. What are ways people could authenticate in such a way that another person can't expropriate for their own use the documentation submitted? Not that I'm a believer in big brother government, nor do I believe CCBill's excuse for collecting the information makes sense, but at least the system shouldn't be inherently hackable. This means people should be authenticating with something that can't be expropriated for use by another person, such as fingerprints.

It can't be that a person can merely submit a fingerprint card electronically. The fatal flaw isn't the passport, but that a person can authenticate with a selfie (i.e. an electronic photo that can be easily copied and used by somebody else). I would feel more comfortable being required to submit through the mail a physical fingerprint card completed by my local LEO, with a date stamp and an expiration on it. If that was the requirement to satisfy the KYC/AML test, at least it would be much more difficult for a fraudster to steal that and use it themselves. We could even find a way, I'm sure, to allow for real time fingerprint scanning using a USB fingerprint scanner. The key is that it would have to be real time scanning, and not merely submitting photos. In my mind, that would be the only legitimate KYC/AML test. What is going on now is just enabling identity thieves.

Let me also add that the way the current system is operating (between both the KYC/AML and 2257 statutes), it's inviting identity thieves/fraudsters into the adult industry. You want to steal somebody's identity? Start an adult website and buy some 2257 compliant content. Funny that to make such a purchase, one need not "verify" themselves. Or start an affiliate program and demand to see the information of your affiliates in the name of curtailing money laundering. So the real fraud that is now going on is not coming from a person like me who is trying to point out the flaws with the current system. It's the people who are taking advantage of the rules and regulations. As for me, I have no criminal record and no desire to end up with one. I hold a trifecta of licenses that I couldn't hold with a criminal record. But not everybody who gets into the business is guided by the same set of ethics and morals that I am.

xxxuniversity

Not only would it be a good idea to shift towards the use of fingerprints for authentication, but there shouldn't be retention requirements that says a company has to hold onto all of this documentation. Once the documentation is reviewed and processed and the person is authenticated, there should be requirements to destroy the documentation.

Robbie

OR....just do it the way it was always done in business. I provide a service (traffic), I get paid.

And the company I provided the service to ALREADY has my Federal EIN (tax ID), AND is paying my company to a United States bank that has ALREADY done KYC on me and my company.

There is no need for "authentication".
Just like I don't need to "authenticate" any business that I pay for a service or product.
They are paying ME for the service. It's none of their goddamned business legally.

ONLY banking institutions are required to do this as far as I know.

But I am open to somebody showing me even one Federal regulation that calls for a company to demand another companies corporate papers in order to get paid.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

xxxuniversity

Right on. The current statutes (e.g. 2257, AML, KYC) are not only not making us all safer, they are aiding and abetting criminals. The crimes continue on unabated. But because of those statutes, it's now easier than every for criminals to commit the crimes in somebody else's name!

Look up the Wells Fargo fake accounts scandal. People need to stop looking at everything as though it's lower level webmasters, affiliates, actors, actresses, and photographers who are the only shady people.

xxxuniversity

I am in agreement with you. That said, there is one scenario where I could understand wanting enough information on the affiliate to do a background check. That is to ensure they aren't dealing with affiliates who already have a criminal record, especially something related to the unspeakable. I could understand that, as that could become a public relations disaster if CCBill was paying people convicted of certain heinous offenses and that became a matter for public consumption. CCBill, of course, never claimed that to be the reason. They claimed it to be to curtail money laundering. Therefore, I can't give them any credit for what they are doing.

CaptainHowdy

Don't sweat it, man . . .

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Christianx

In my opinion, the irony here is that the OP doesn't want to give out his ID and/or address while making money off people who have to not only give their ID and personal information, but also show their faces in a porno.

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mopek1

I'm sure porn actors and actresses don't want to give their personal info either.

SpicyM

But they have to. Model releases contain their personal data, their IDs are captured and their pictures/videos are personal info as well. Every single piece of content where the model can be identified = personal data.

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The Porn Nerd

Please don't bring logic or irony into this discussion.

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mopek1

That statement you quoted isn't logical.

2 parties partake in a shared industry, but that doesn't mean both have to be subject to the same standards. It wouldn't be logical to. The standards for each party are dependent upon the role they play in the industry, and many other factors.

A porn actress must provide documentation to ensure she is not a minor, thus making sure there is no child exploitation occurring, a serious crime.

An affiliate promoting the (above) over-18 actress doesn't expose the industry to the same risk as she does, therefore his requirements are not the same.

That is one example of nuance in industry relationships and partners, and there are many others.

The Porn Nerd

"Nuance" or not - different roles or not - there are some exact corollaries. Such as: identity. That's a basic one. If a porn actress, program owner, affiliate, or customer cannot provide proof of identity it is fraud, end of story.

Here is what I learned long, long ago: instead of trying to beat a system by being a rebel and NOT having basic life stuff together (driver's license, bank account, SSN# etc) is foolish and only hurts you. Instead, decide if you want to play in that system and, if so, then do the dance and provide the info. If not, like the OP has decided apparently, then simply do not play in that system. Bitching about it is a waste of time. Trying to change the system? It can be done but requires a fuck lot more work than posting on an Industry board.

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mopek1

I like you Porn Nerd and am not trying to get into anything with you personally. But most of the arguments here on gfy (and on other boards/media) are political, even if they don't seem to be.

It's individualism vs collectivism. Or Freedom vs Marxism, played out in these threads.

Most of the statements you (and the people that support your position) made above are Marxist philosophy statements. Conformism, group, appealing to authority etc...


People use that a lot to end an argument because they have no more valid points and don't want to hear any. The left does that a lot lately on social media (the right is just as bad).


Rebel = individualism, someone trying to wiggle free from the tyranny that can be authority. Look at any Star Wars movie/series. Yes rebels can be angry teenagers but even they are rebelling for good reason, to learn to push away from authority and form their own identity. Of course rebelling can be done improperly.

Be part of a "system" and conform. Very collectivist way of thinking. No questions, no analyzing, just submit.

"System" again. And by the way. There was a system already that the Op was okay with. Then it suddenly changed (companies requiring documents they never have before). So by your definition, the system is really whatever authority wants it to be, whenever they want it to be. Do what they say when they say it. That's tyranny and I'm not good with that at all.

Again, OP isn't trying to change the system. He accepted the system and played by the rules. The system changed on him first.

If you let government (left or right) take an inch, and then another, and then another, before you know it your rights are gone. We are far from that yet but the system is getting bigger and people are noticing and not happy with the direction it's taking.

For FS you can't bring nail clippers on airplanes anymore because some right-wing government changed the system waaay too much after 9/11. They could have made a few small changes but instead went all out, grabbing power in many more ways than necessary, including surveillance.

I like the middle road. Some basic rules, taxes and laws etc... but what's happening more and more is concerning.

The 2 cultures in the USA are splitting up. Some states will be freedom (less government) oriented and some will be more Marxist/Collectivist oriented.

Almost all of our arguments online come from that culture war.

The Porn Nerd

Yes most things are political but I am a practical man. In other words: I want to get PAID. So if the system changes once again you have the choice to remain in that system or leave it (or try to change it).

CCBill is not a Government. It is a private company. If they have Rules and Regulations in place to process with them, or become an affiliate, then the three choices remain (play ball, leave or try to change the Rules). But I do not see a major issue with showing an ID and verifying your address. This leaves me with the conclusion that the OP is unable to comply, not merely unwilling. There can be many non-nefarious reasons for this, I am not accusing the OP of anything. But if all they want is an ID and a utility bill....seems pretty basic to me.

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xxxuniversity

Not sure where the nexus comes from. For one, I've already provided my information to join the affiliate program. It's a 20 year old affiliate account. I did provide an address.

The biggest irony is that the companies on the front line in the war on "money laundering" can't even properly identify what is and isn't money laundering. So, even if you are the most pro big government, pro war on money laundering person there is, how can you like the idea that companies like CCBill can't even recognize what is or isn't money laundering?