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BVF

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#1

now THIS is a bullshit chargeback

05-16-2003, 09:47 AM

I was checking out the CCbill new fangled stats system and I see this chargeback:

Credit card (Visa - BIN#425436)

$19.95 for 00030 days followed by $19.95 every 30 days.

Member Since: 2003-03-15
Cancel Date: 2003-03-23
Expires: Expired
Cancel Reason: Satisfied Customer

Now the man admitted that he was a satisfied customer yet he STILL charged back....This is some bullshit...

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#2

05-16-2003, 09:51 AM

Now the man admitted that he was a satisfied customer yet he STILL charged back....This is some bullshit...

haha, saw the same thing 2 days ago... thieves. "yes, i'm satisfied... i'd be even *more* satisfied if i could have my money back as well!"..

...promise her a defamation, tell her where the rain will fall..
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#3

05-16-2003, 09:51 AM

of course he's satisfied, he just got off for free at your expense.
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#4

05-16-2003, 09:55 AM

Ouch that must suck..
when someone signs up tru ccbill, do you see their stats, like name and address and all?
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#5

05-16-2003, 09:57 AM

well I WAS satisfied after cumming to my keyboard but then I tought that I could spend that money better..

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#6

05-16-2003, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by asuna
Ouch that must suck..
when someone signs up tru ccbill, do you see their stats, like name and address and all?

yes, I have his name, address, and phone number.....

Should I call him and ask him why he charged back and robbed me?

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#7

05-16-2003, 09:58 AM

someone needs to start an adult collection agency.

honestly... why is that not against the law??? how its even legal for a surfer to do that and get away with it is just fucking wrong.
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#8

05-16-2003, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by BVF

yes, I have his name, address, and phone number.....

Should I call him and ask him why he charged back and robbed me?

great, send him a registered letter with a bill for the charge back + fee's, or like cherrylula said, there must be some collections thing for stuff like this, even if it's $20, most collection agencies will laugh at you if your trying to get $20 out of this guy
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#9

05-16-2003, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by BVF

yes, I have his name, address, and phone number.....

Should I call him and ask him why he charged back and robbed me?

Call his wife

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#10

05-16-2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by traffic addict

Call his wife

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#11

05-16-2003, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by cherrylula
someone needs to start an adult collection agency.

honestly... why is that not against the law??? how its even legal for a surfer to do that and get away with it is just fucking wrong.

why isn't it against the law? prove that the guy who owns the credit card is the one that signed up and surfed the site.

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#12

05-16-2003, 10:27 AM

BVF, did you talk with ccbill? are CB's reviewed first or no? Im sure this was a slip up then, unless he meant to say unsatisfied, but he wrote Satisfied...
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#13

05-16-2003, 10:27 AM

How often are you required to fill out a form, but you don't feel like it, so you just place a check in some bull shit box?

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#14

05-16-2003, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Sly_RJ
How often are you required to fill out a form, but you don't feel like it, so you just place a check in some bull shit box?

then you get charged anyways for being lazy, and stupid, your putting you CC info in there, read everything, or else too bad
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#15

05-16-2003, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by asuna

then you get charged anyways for being lazy, and stupid, your putting you CC info in there, read everything, or else too bad

Uhh, hello McFly, I was giving you the reason he selected "satisfied".

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#16

05-16-2003, 10:31 AM

Is this where 49th paralegal comes in and claims you were screwing that customer and he deserves to have your money becajs because you are a filthy pornographer and the customer a helpless victim? ;)))

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#17

05-16-2003, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Sly_RJ

Uhh, hello McFly, I was giving you the reason he selected "satisfied".

hmm, I never charge backed, I didn't know you choose from options, i thougt you had to write a reason
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#18

05-16-2003, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Sly_RJ
How often are you required to fill out a form, but you don't feel like it, so you just place a check in some bull shit box?

Bingo!

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#19

05-16-2003, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by asuna

hmm, I never charge backed, I didn't know you choose from options, i thougt you had to write a reason

You're confused.
When he cancelled his membership, he chose satisfied as a reason. He had a whole list to choose from, but that one is probably the first. It might be even pre-checked.

Despite claiming he was satisfied, he still chargedback. Which is why everyone has their knickers in a knot.

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#20

05-16-2003, 10:35 AM

I've often wondered if those cancel reason drop down menus really give you accurate feedback.
If I'm not mistaken "satisfied customer" or "no problem just moving on" are the first options so I'd imagine most ppl take those.
When I'm cancelling something I don't want to have a fucking conversation with you about it, I just want to tell you to stop billing me and get on with my life.

Now charging back if you admit you authorized the charge is bullshit, but I wouldn't put a lot of weight behind the "satisfied customer" shit.

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#21

05-16-2003, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by psyko514

You're confused.
When he cancelled his membership, he chose satisfied as a reason. He had a whole list to choose from, but that one is probably the first. It might be even pre-checked.

Despite claiming he was satisfied, he still chargedback. Which is why everyone has their knickers in a knot.

I got it... i didn't know you had a list of answers to choose from
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#22

05-16-2003, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by psyko514

why isn't it against the law? prove that the guy who owns the credit card is the one that signed up and surfed the site.

I remember seeing an adult collections company advertised in AVN magazine.

And there are plenty of companies that run people through collections without such proof.

I have a friend that owns a collection agency, I should ask her about it.
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#23

05-16-2003, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by goBigtime
I remember seeing an adult collections company advertised in AVN magazine.

And there are plenty of companies that run people through collections without such proof.

I have a friend that owns a collection agency, I should ask her about it.

Good luck. You'll get nothing but negative publicity.

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#24

05-16-2003, 10:45 AM

Yeah, I have had Refunds ,Chargebacks.. but WTF is Revokes ?? (ibill)
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#25

05-16-2003, 11:00 AM

The really sad thing about charge backs with the CC companies is that they do not offer you ( the webmaster ) the chance to prove that the person did infact use your services.

For example. If the person is surfing high speed he MOST likely has a static IP. While this is not fool proof, you can bet your ass 99% ogf the time they guy that owns the ip is the same as the charge card.

And then the web stats that show the guys entering the site 100 times of more and spending x time of certain sets of photos etc... This should be enough proof for the credit card companies and VISA/MC to tell the customer they have to pay!!!

I had a guy compalin and threaten to charge back and told ccbill that his roommate made the charge. But by Visa regulations, any one in your household makes a charge and you have to pay!!! But even then CCBILL gave the guy the credit back!!!

Everyone is scared of Vias and MC right now... Supposedly one of WSB problems is that they had greater than 1% charge back!!!

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#26

05-16-2003, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Lenny2
When I'm cancelling something I don't want to have a fucking conversation with you about it, I just want to tell you to stop billing me and get on with my life.

Now charging back if you admit you authorized the charge is bullshit, but I wouldn't put a lot of weight behind the "satisfied customer" shit.

Agreed. I rarely check the accurate reason in those boxes. I'm just trying to get done with the form as soon as possible.
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#27

05-16-2003, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by pornguy
The really sad thing about charge backs with the CC companies is that they do not offer you ( the webmaster ) the chance to prove that the person did infact use your services.

For example. If the person is surfing high speed he MOST likely has a static IP. While this is not fool proof, you can bet your ass 99% ogf the time they guy that owns the ip is the same as the charge card.

and how will you prove that the static IP address that you have actually was assigned to the guy to whom belongs the credit card?

first, you have to determine the ISP of the credit card owner. then you have to SUBPOENA his ISP in order for them to tell you that the IP address had/has been assigned to the card owner.

The ISP will not give you the info without a subpoena. And you won't get a subpoena for a measly $30.

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#28

05-16-2003, 11:55 AM

Globill actually has in their terms and conditions things for chargebacks. Aka, they send a certified letter demanding payment, then they send a certified letter to them, their bank, and credit card company with the "type of content they looked at" then they turn it over to a collection agency.
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#29

05-16-2003, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by StacyCat
Globill actually has in their terms and conditions things for chargebacks. Aka, they send a certified letter demanding payment, then they send a certified letter to them, their bank, and credit card company with the "type of content they looked at" then they turn it over to a collection agency.

They say that they do that. But do they actually?

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#30

05-16-2003, 12:08 PM

I think it should be you called the cc company and say someone else used my cc I want to charge back that means it is stolen and they should cancel the current card, have you sign something that you swear under the law it was stolen and issue a new one. The hassle and the fear of signing something would stop most friendly fraud. It will never happen charging us is much more fun for them lol.
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#31

05-16-2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by tony404
I think it should be you called the cc company and say someone else used my cc I want to charge back that means it is stolen and they should cancel the current card, have you sign something that you swear under the law it was stolen and issue a new one. The hassle and the fear of signing something would stop most friendly fraud. It will never happen charging us is much more fun for them lol.

An unrecognized charge does not necessarily mean the card was stolen.

And most card issuers require a written letter in order to chargeback an internet charge.

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#32

05-16-2003, 12:17 PM

I dont think they need a letter I think its a phone call. If they had to write a letter I dont think it would happen as often. Also if there is a charge on your cc statement that you didnt authorize then that means someone else has your number and that is theft.
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#33

05-16-2003, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by tony404
I dont think they need a letter I think its a phone call. If they had to write a letter I dont think it would happen as often. Also if there is a charge on your cc statement that you didnt authorize then that means someone else has your number and that is theft.

I work for Visa customer service. So yes, we make them write a letter. And yes, people do write the letter.

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#34

05-16-2003, 12:34 PM

They do all that work to beat me out of $20. I feel better now lol.
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#35

05-16-2003, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by tony404
I dont think they need a letter I think its a phone call. If they had to write a letter I dont think it would happen as often. Also if there is a charge on your cc statement that you didnt authorize then that means someone else has your number and that is theft.

Depends on the card company. It seems that both VISA and MC in the US are just one big fucking mess.

I had to charge back something I was billed wrong for recently. I was even told to charge back by the company I originally pruchased from as they were not able to issue the credit on my card themselves. Despite this it took several phone calls and I had to fill out a form explaining the exact details behind the charge back or they would re-take the money from my card and give it back to the 'retailer'. The whole process took a couple of months plus while they also checked with the company that had billed my card.

Now that's a UK based VISA CC. It just seems that much of VISA/MC's US troubles are caused totally by it's willingless to allow fraud by many of it's own customers. I can't obviously say for sure that all banks in Europe have the same rules for charge backs but it seems more than possible if the VISA/MC europe guidelines say to do that.

Were the above a standard proceudre by every CC issuer before a charge back can take place there would probably be a lot less of them.

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#36

05-16-2003, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by psyko514

I work for Visa customer service. So yes, we make them write a letter. And yes, people do write the letter.

Have to ask though - is that VISA in the US?

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#37

05-16-2003, 07:45 PM

Excuse me everbody, but it appears he cancelled. He didn't charge back. Chargebacks happen when you call the bank, not ccBill. You call ccBill to cancel subscriptions and get refunds and shit.

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#38

05-16-2003, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by cherrylula
someone needs to start an adult collection agency.

honestly... why is that not against the law??? how its even legal for a surfer to do that and get away with it is just fucking wrong.

Why not gather up allof your chargebacks from the past 6 months or so, and file small claims actions.

We all know joe nerdly is not going to travel across the country, just to appear in court.

You get the default judgement

Turn the debt over to a collection agency, and although you may only walk away with pennies on the dollar, there is the satisfaction you won a battle.

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#39

05-16-2003, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by Cogitator
Excuse me everbody, but it appears he cancelled. He didn't charge back. Chargebacks happen when you call the bank, not ccBill. You call ccBill to cancel subscriptions and get refunds and shit.

no he didn't cancel or there wouldn't be a minus sign in front of the dollar amount...that money was taken out of my sales for the day...and if you know the new ccbill java display, it's clearly labeled a "chargeback"

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#40

05-16-2003, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by WendyB

Why not gather up allof your chargebacks from the past 6 months or so, and file small claims actions.

We all know joe nerdly is not going to travel across the country, just to appear in court.

You get the default judgement

There's no default judgement if the case has no grounds.

Speak to your lawyer about sueing a surfer who chargedback.

YOU CANNOT PROVE THE GUY WHO SIGNED UP AND ACCESSED THE SITES IS THE GUY WHO'S NAME IS ON THE CREDIT CARD.

It's as simple as that.

If you can determine what ISP he uses and then get them to confirm that the IP used to sign up and access your sites is the same as the name on the credit card, then by all means, go for it.

But you will not and cannot get that information without a subpoena.

And you cannot and will not get a subpoena for $30. The police have a hard enough time getting info from ISPs. You try it. Report back to us afterwards.

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#41

05-16-2003, 09:58 PM

To top all that off there's probably a clause in your merchant agreement (or ccbill's) that says that Visa's decision is final, binding, and unappealable.

This is why ecommerce is failing us and a contributing factor as to why the dot com people took a whippin'.

Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to handle the bounced checks. The check provider allows them in, then shuts them off in the next couple days if the check comes back unpaid. Check fraud is blatantly illegal, whereas the credit card fraud has a grey area.

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#42

05-16-2003, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by VirtuMike
To top all that off there's probably a clause in your merchant agreement (or ccbill's) that says that Visa's decision is final, binding, and unappealable.

Nope. Merchants are allowed to fight back. It's called representment. But they have to prove the charge belongs to the customer. And to do that, they need a signature. Without a signature, they need to prove the IP address was assigned to the cardholder. See my previous posts for more info on that.

Originally posted by VirtuMike
Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to handle the bounced checks. The check provider allows them in, then shuts them off in the next couple days if the check comes back unpaid. Check fraud is blatantly illegal, whereas the credit card fraud has a grey area.

Go with Globill for your checks. You can restrict access until the check clears.

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#43

05-16-2003, 10:32 PM

If is often difficult to determine if a action pending before the court is with or without merit. Here in Kings County, Washington, if the defendant does not appear or file a written denial of the claim or does not dispute the claim, the judge will take testimony from the plaintiff and grant an appropriate money judgment. That testimony is usually a simple formality, and will include the plaintiff presenting proof of service. When a defendant has been served with a notice to appear, and still is a no show, the courts usually don't go seeking more wiggle room. Default judgment, and defendant has thirty days to pay. on the 31st day, that judgment is final, and defendant is fair game for collection.

When a judgment is entered by default, the court doesn't award an amount which is greater than the amount originally requested in the Notice of Claim form, plus costs.. There are many, jurisdictions across the United States, although similar, local laws will dictate proper proceedures.

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#44

05-16-2003, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by WendyB
If is often difficult to determine if a action pending before the court is with or without merit. Here in Kings County, Washington, if the defendant does not appear or file a written denial of the claim or does not dispute the claim, the judge will take testimony from the plaintiff and grant an appropriate money judgment. That testimony is usually a simple formality, and will include the plaintiff presenting proof of service. When a defendant has been served with a notice to appear, and still is a no show, the courts usually don't go seeking more wiggle room. Default judgment, and defendant has thirty days to pay. on the 31st day, that judgment is final, and defendant is fair game for collection.

When a judgment is entered by default, the court doesn't award an amount which is greater than the amount originally requested in the Notice of Claim form, plus costs.. There are many, jurisdictions across the United States, although similar, local laws will dictate proper proceedures.

You can provide what you consider to be proof of service, however it's not valid proof.

Speak to your lawyer about this. Better yet, speak to a lawyer who has a clue about the internet. If you're filing a claim, the burden of proof is on you. And you can't prove jack.

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#45

05-16-2003, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by psyko514

why isn't it against the law? prove that the guy who owns the credit card is the one that signed up and surfed the site.

yay ip logs for your members' section!

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#46

05-16-2003, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by iroc409
yay ip logs for your members' section!

Read the rest of the thread. At the very least, read my posts.
Your members' section IP logs are worth jack shit.

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#47

05-16-2003, 11:52 PM

yea, its too easy now adays to buy things with a credit card and dispute the charge and get it for free

blah blah fucking blah
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#48

05-16-2003, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by psyko514

Read the rest of the thread. At the very least, read my posts.
Your members' section IP logs are worth jack shit.

ahh... not _entirely_, but it's not worth the money to pursue it

as well as a relatively low success rate.

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Toker

Confirmed User

Join Date: Feb 2003

Posts: 891
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#49

05-17-2003, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by asuna
Ouch that must suck..
when someone signs up tru ccbill, do you see their stats, like name and address and all?

Ya get everything but his CC #..
Most of the chargebacks are because a minor used his parents card tho...
I know ya can run his phone # and get his neighbors addys and phone numbers, even their email addys if they have them..

Happened to me and I called the asshole and asked him what his neighbors would think if I called and checked his credit with his them and mentioned I was a porn peddler, he sent a MO for 49 bucks 2 days later...

PeaceAlive and kicking
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JDragon

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Join Date: May 2003

Posts: 6
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#50

05-17-2003, 03:54 AM

Originally posted by juice
Yeah, I have had Refunds ,Chargebacks.. but WTF is Revokes ?? (ibill)

As I understand it, a revoke is what is considered a cancellation of a transaction before any money has even changed hands. It's kind of like signing a contract, setting it down on the table, then tearing it up because you changed your mind (before the other person got a hold of it). There should be no need of a refund nor any possibility of a chargeback to take place since the transaction did not technically occur. Now, I may be mistaken, but this is how it was explained to me in the past.

My friends visited my computer and all I got was this lousy virus!
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