x

Why did they do that?

Maybe because they were sick of this industry and are simply trying to drop us off... and find different ways to do it.

I mean, there's no reason for Mastercard to do that. You don't screw your good clients. Is the adult industry a good client... this is the question.

Hello cardholder, our db has been compromised, your number isn't safe.
Would you like a new number and 5 days without your card or would you rather someone used your number?

So does your bank where you do CS issue MC or only Visa? That makes a big difference in how you look at it, since Visa HATES MC.

No they werent, did you get that part?

My edit -- you do Visa CSR for a bank in Canada, we are talking about Mastercard.

X

A few years ago, there was a bank (Charter Pacific) that was selling bad card databases (stolen and chargedd back cards). One guy bought it and ran millions in bogus transactions. Not a good thing.

For them to re-issue millions of cards, it would cost about $20 a piece from what I have read. Not chump change and very damaging to the brand itself.

Good night.

Mitch

It wasn't the issuers db that was compromised. And cardholders were advised that they were backed by the zero-liability policy in case of misuse of their cards.

Out of approx 60k compromised numbers at my bank alone, not one has been used fraudulently.

You're right. I should have made it clear that I was talking specifically for Visa-Issuing Canadian banks.
I was unaware that Mastercard banks didn't advise their customers that their numbers were compromised. I find that extremely shocking and appaling. Are we talking about all Mastercard issuing banks or only certain banks?

Anyways, like we've agreed, mostly it comes down to one thing: money. It's not worth the cost and potential loss in revenue from unhappy customers to either Visa or MC.

god forbid a processor admits to having their database hacked/sold

I've always enjoyed your sig lines, Kim

who's the one that says using stolen credit cards is illegal? Shouldn't they be the one's stepping up investigating every accusation of a stolen credit card? if visa or mastercard wants money from you for people using stolen credit cards.. i think you should put the blaim on the law for not enforcing their shit. i thought that it was a felony...

80% claim their credit card was stolen to join a porn site.. im sure that this could be traced very easily... considering they have probably signed up to a few other porn sites before.. possibly said the same thing and got out of that bill to... maybe try something like flagging just their credit card as high risk.. instead of the whole adult industry. there is nothing wrong with it.. its just the few people that have gotten out of a few bills.. making felony accusations.. and know they can keep doing it.. so why pay?

Finally a processor with some balls. :thumbsup

what if.. when some one did a chargeback.. claimed fraud.. make it a HUGE deal... sound all serious on the phone... tell them to hold on a second while you transfer them to the felony complaint department. Sound all serious.. and tell them you will send them a mail for felony claims and they need to fill it out and send it back immediatly. Tell them the fbi will be contacted.. and this and that.. all it takes is an email to their [email protected].. if it truly is a stolen credit card.. there's nothing to hide.. it would only help. something needs to make it harder to chage back... besides "ok your credit card was charged back.. have a good day.. bye"

Anybody else have trouble finding the letters in amongst the dots?

i did :stoned

I am on page 7. Will comment after I am done in a greater extend.

WAY TO GO Epoch/Paycom!!!!:winkwink:

That's great Chris ... but you're also assuming that that Epoch and the industry as a whole is squeaky clean here? And that Epoch will be viewed as such?

What other industry systemically tries to force a rebill down the consumer's throat before they even see the product? What other industry systemically makes it a hassle for the consumer to cancel?

For better or for worse, Epoch has been a part of that. With what is, for all practical purposes, a forced rebill system --- can Mastercard be totally blamed for insisting that "refunds" be counted as chargebacks?

I sincerely doubt this would be happening if the industry standard was the more consumer friendly non-recurring billing option --- which very few sites use.

Joining a porn site is supposed to be fun. Having to worry about cancelling before you even know if the site is any good takes all the fun out of it.

Let's be honest. Rebills are designed to take advantage of the customers' forgetting to cancel and squeeze every possible dollar out of them --- whether they like the product or not. And now Mastercard is saying no more to the "refunds" that are supposed to cover your ass with these questionable billing tactics.

To paint the adult industry as the "victim" in this scenario is laughable.

Thanks Mitch.

I am curious: Do you think that your client?s will be able to stay under 1% chargebacks combined with credits? What about the 15 chargeback trigger?

I am not baiting you here, but I just don?t see how MC or anyone can claim that as a reasonable and achievable goal. Obviously our lawsuit tells our story better than I could here, but I agree with model that it is a set up, pure and simple.

Here is a stupid question, since Visa is the biggest and that seems to be working. What happens if we all just stop taking mastercard? I think Sams Club only takes Visa, why cant we?

According to Paycom's filing, Mastercard accounts for 40 percent of their transactions.

So, I'm assuming that means a 40 percent drop in business which, Paycom says, would put them out of business.

Sorry...

EPOCH is squeaky clean, as are most IPSP?s. What do you think MC will say? ?They are billing for porn so we have the right to screw them.?

As for rebills, no one forces anyone to do anything. We take tens of thousands of calls a week and more emails from cardholders canceling. Consumers know. This is not a new concept. It is a hell of a lot cleaner and better than subscription news delivery services, like the LA Times for example. I have cancelled my subscription about 10 times over the last year. They keep delivering the paper and sending bills. They call me at 11 PM asking if I want to subscribe. They can?t cancel, stop telemarketing or rebilling ? so I?m screwed. And guess what? If I don?t pay that bill every month, they turn me over to a credit agency and my credit is ruined. Our industry is a 1000-times better than any magazine, newspaper or other ?deliverable? merchant of that ilk.

Granted, there are bad guys in this business, as there are in all businesses. There are those that screw the consumer morning, noon and night. We don?t process for those people.

As for the cross sell talk, this is old news, but one more time: We have been doing this for well over a year. Our chargebacks have decreased (not because of increased volume either). So that is a lame argument. The facts support my position. The reason is because of disclosure. We email everyone upon joining. Consumers know where to go to cancel trials, recurring, to get help if their password does not work, etc?

Paycom / EPOCH and other IPSP?s spend millions every year on providing cardholders with state-of-the-art Call Centers. Ours is open 24x7x365 with toll free numbers to call from around the world answered by professional Customer Service Representatives speaking a total of 21 languages. We do this for the card associations (MC / Visa) rules and to protect their brands and our / your ability to continue accepting the brand. If we were scamming, we would not have a call center, save that money and roll along. We don?t.

I can?t speak for CCBill, but I bet Ron would agree with me that the disclosure is better now, Customer Service is better now, chargebacks are lower now and fraud is lower, except for the stolen databases than at any time in this industry?s history.

As to why MC won?t whack the known stolen card numbers, well the deal there is simple: Money. It is estimated by our professional consultants (with a combined 100 years working for and with the card associations) that the cost to MC alone is well over $1 Billion to reissue the stolen database cards from the DPI hack alone. The Issuing Banks have the lists, they just refuse to list the cards and MC won?t even ask. MC is owned by those same banks, so MC?s owners would probably opt in to of any re-issue program. Why is that? Don?t the care about the cardholders? Sure they do. But the reason again: Money. The money comes from the merchants. We pay the costs of the chargebacks and the good news for MC and their banks is that they KEEP the Interchange and fine us in the process. So there is no financial incentive or penalty for these banks and MC just letting the cards be used. This is the issue that should really tweak webmasters. This means that resellers can get the databases and run the cards on your programs, earn $35 a sign up and off they go, forever. And we keep giving valid auth?s as the card number and the CVC2 are correct and we get full AVS ? no reason to decline or scrub out. Webmasters are screwed, we are screwed, and cardholders are screwed, but not MC. That is where deceptive trade practices come in.

Sorry for the length of this post, but these issues are so complex, serious and maddening that it is hard to be brief.

Really 40%, I thought Mastercard wasnt that widely used. Even if there was a drop in business, I think it would go back to the level it was at before. Most people if they have a mastercard they have a Visa.

Funny you mention that. I just cancelled a bunch of credit cards I didn't need that either had extra fees or higher interest rates.

Turns out they were all Visa. I only have Mastercard now.

Then I guess you couldnt shop at Sam's club or my site lol.

Ummm....only a fool wouldn't :)

My hats off to Epoch/Paycom for taking a stand on this issue. Good luck....

First, I'd be more than happy to never join a porn site again. Not only because of the billing hassles, but because of all the spam I got afterward. We all know that CCBill (and probably others) sell those lists.

And I've never had a problem with any retail outlet accepting Mastercard. Period.

EPOCH ROX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so glad I've been using them for my memberships and soon to be using their ePpurchase to support my shopping cart sales...

All other might processors should join in this

AOl used to do this... 30 day free trial to AOl, enter your CC number...

then you had to call their customer support, give em reasons why you want to cancel your great AOL membership blah blah...

Then their are all those CD clubs etc...

Its been done before, and it'll be done again.

Way to go Epoch!!!

Ah ... the LA Times example. Heard that before. I never had a problem cancelling the LA Times, BTW.

You're selling monthly memberships, yet you automatically bill people for more than that. Even if the LA Times is also doing that --- doesn't make it right.

Sure ... you've got call centers and customer support. But why should the legitimate customer have to even bother with that? Or even bother with an email or cancellation form? It's still wrong ... no matter how you slice it.

It's their money. If they want to rebill let them choose that. Don't bullshit the customer with automatic rebills for their supposed "convenience." It's a crock ... and we all know it.

What bothers me about the adult industry is that --- across the board --- the entire system is anti-consumer. No one wants to take responsibility for it. And, as this thread demonstrates, the attitude of most webmasters is "It's not our fault. It's the customer's fault."

Well ... the old saying in business is that "The Customer is Always Right." This industry ignored that timeless tradition and now it's going to have to pay for it.

Yeah ... and AOL's business is in the toilet now. Great example.

I love how people justify this bullshit by saying others scam customers ... so can we! We have a right to scam! Give us those credit cards!

Pathetic ...

I gotta believe both sides in this case will be seeking settlement. KK is right on target with the assessment that Mastercard will not enjoy the discovery process. The cold light will be shined on their business tactics with other potentially litigous companies getting free looks at the inside workings of Mastercard.

A jury trial doesnt necessarily mean it will be the porners against the card company, Paycom's first move could be to seek to have references to adult nature removed from the trial. This might be harder to do than what is being done in the Acacia case as the conduct that mastercard seeks to protect themselves from has arguably been much worse in the adult market and MC may argue that the jury needs to know the complete picture to get a good understanding of why they should be allowed to treat the adult market as a special case.

Kudos to Paycom for stepping up to the plate on this one. I dont see how you manage to fit into the batters box with them big brassy balls of yours. :drinkup

This is a long ass thread... and I admit I've only skimmed, but here's a question (That may have been answered already).


>>> Are these rules (the 1% CB allowances & credits being counted as chargebacks) ONLY being handed down to Paycom currently - and not the other IPSP's?.

Because to me it sure would make sense that Paycom is the first to get kicked in the teeth by the credit card companies due to their aggressive cross-site join pages.

Having a surfer sign up to 3 sites at once, dick in hand (not in the "reading" mood if you know what I mean) signing up for something saying "2.99!!" or "FREE" everywhere only to be charged over $120 for multiple site memberships a few days later..... big shocker that this results in fines in the millions of dollars months down the road?

But hell yeah, if someone were trying to fine & penalize me (err should I say my Corporation) for over a million bucks... I might just have to give that million to an attorney and fight it tooth and nail instead :winkwink:

If I win cool - fuckem' for trying to fine millions of dollars anyway:). But If I lose... well hey, at least I stood up against them.. and I am a Corporation after all :Graucho

If the case was lost (and the fees needed to be paid) would I still stick around?


I guess another big question is has Paycom already paid the fees? (I dunno) Or does this lawsuit postpone the payment of them until a decision is made?


I always thought Paycom/Epoch was a kickass processor until they rolled out that triple-whammy cross-site join page. That just seemed like... like not a move that a company that wanted to stick around long would consider doing :(

:2 cents:

But hey what do I know, I process probably 1/10,000th of what epoch does. Maybe the cross-site stuff wasn't a big deal. But I would imagine they have the highest % of credits being issued for all IPSP's.

Having to keep CB's at < 1% & having credits counted as CB's would be rough, but I think it would be impossible with that cross-site model.

Good Point.

come on guys. opt out cross-sells are done for the convience of the customer. If a webmaster happens to make some additional money, then that it is only fair for providing such a convenient service to their customer.

when i first started selling vhs videos back in 98, i would ship the video out fed ex so that i would have a signature. a customer paid for a video via amex (when they were still processing adult at that time) and it was sent out.

this same customer chargedback the video about a month later and i figured since i had a copy of his signature for the fed ex on record, the issue would be resolved. much to my dismay, amex told me that i was screwed. if the person wanted to chargeback, they could do so with no questions asked. livid is an understatement when i heard that.

in 99 visa and mc started with their zero liability bullshit making people completely aware that they could chargeback whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted. why? cause they make money on this! just look at your merchant statement monthly fees. needless to say, i won't send anything out now without a life history :)

my hats off to paycom-epoth and all the people who have the ability to make these theives (which is what they are...they are accompliances when a customer knowingly charges back an item that they knew they had to pay for) come forth and own up to what they have been doing for years and if there is a fund to send money into, please let me know the paypal address and i will send what i can!

hopefully this is the beginning of the end of visa/mc trying to screw people cause this is not only this industry getting screwed, it's mainstream as well and if you are a mom & pop shop, you will have to close your doors faster then when you opened them.

if you have a paypal addy, please send it my way (may have been listed in this thread but the thread was a bit to long to go thru).

NY TIMES TODAY

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/13/te...gy/13CARD.html

PAYCOM vs MC

Hi Chris,

2 of our merchants have had problems with the Mastercard threshold on the past 6 months. It is tough no doubt, and you and I know that Mastercards chargebacks are higher than Visa (for some odd reason :-)). It is not a reasonable acheivable goal in its current state. Visa's is borderline but that is a bigger team to tackle. The rules are insane. I spend 50% of my day dealing with merchant banks, as I'm sure you do as well.

...

Tony404,

Not sure about Paycom, but mastercard accounts for between 30 & 40% of our overall sales for mainstream and adult combined. Dropping Mastercard does not mean a 40% drop in business. It means that the surfers will then pay by check or Visa/Discover. However, the big hit would be losing all of the Mastercard rebillings. For anyone wanting to drop Mastercard, phase rebillings while you do not accept Mastercard for new sales.

Mitch

So those MC rules are being applied across the board? Not just against Paycom?

You're acting like this is the only instance of recurring billing in the world. Its not.

Its not a scam. If people want to cancel they can.

Have you ever seen a large volume customer service opperation in this industry. Sure you get the people calling wondering why they were charged again, but you also get as many people calling to cancel on time, or calling for their passwords etc, and you get many people emailing about what a great site they've joined...

Sure there has been scammers in this industry before, people billing people multiple times in the same day for transactions that people didnt' necessarily agree to. Ie. join for a trial. 2.99, then get billed on the same day 10.99 20.99 30.99 for some cross sells that they weren't informed of, but thats another issue.

If you don't read a contract thats your own fault.