the very fist thing i saw when i joined this biz in 1997 was the fact that it was made by amateurs and if there is the money in it that we all have expected than that this will not be for a long time. where is money to make the professionals will show up.

so my intension in all those years was to tell everybody my visions and make them smarter.

many of this people hated me for it and called me a fool but on the long term all my predictions came true and the ones that have listened to it and reacted are still in the game.

it is not very hard to predict those things if you are at least a bit skilled in economy and you are willing to look at the negative aspects.

well this example was NOT meant as the usual case. i have also seen people who had money losing all because they thought it is too easy.

i know personally a few of the other group that is indeed successful and it was maybe because they came to me first and i did not sell them the traffic because i saw they will lose all with the skills they had.

i invested a lot of time into them and teached them step by step what to do and how to interpret what they see. today this hours of teaching them are paid multiple times because they are my customers and spend a lot of money with me and rarely have a question or need my attention.

so to answer your question:
it all depends who you believe.
it is the same thing as SEO. 90% of the SEO rules are completely bullshit and every skilled informatic or maths professional can tell you that they are technically impossible or do not make sense.

the 10% you have to really know about SEO are not so easy to find as only an asshole would tell you the right winning numbers for the lottery and an asshole is not smart enough to find them out.

but essentially the basic of media buying is that you must accept to lose money in the start and you must realize that this money is not lost because you got information in exchange.

imagine: if you convert 1:100 you are doing ONLY 99% wrong
so the real goal on media buying is not concentrating on this 1% as it will not bring you sufficient numbers fast enough.
a smart mediabuyer is concentrating on the bigger number - the 99% that did NOT convert.

if you are able to bring the error quote from 99% to 98% you have doubled up your result.

this is the reason why modern internet marketing CAN NOT work without a clickid as you will ONLY know all about the sale but you know nothing about the ones that did NOT buy.

the clickid (and btw. I was the inventor of the clickid in 2006/2007) changed the complete internet marketing worldwide.
compared with a good tracking system you could suddenly see that landingpage1 worked
profitable but the sales came only from android and IOS users with a safari browser did not sign up.

when you know that you can either find the reason why it does not work with them (mostly design or CSS issues) or sou send this traffic to a page where you can see positive results for IOS/safari.

but even when you think this is all you need to know and learn you are completely wrong because when we are talking about traffic we are actually talking about people.
a professional advertiser knows the most about people.

you can show me whatever banner you want and whatever landingpage you want and i will tell you where the problems are (and you can be sure i will find a problem everywhere because I have learned all that what no self-made designer have learned)

i can tell you about male colorblindness in color combinations - i can tell you about readability of fonts - i can tell you about fontsizes and color signals and i can tell you that you will not be able to bring a message to a user when you are using a never stopping gif as the human eye will always go automatically to the movement.

these are just the BASICS of advertising and believe me this board does not have enough space to write down what i can tell you about it that you have never ever even looked at.

so no - it is not easy and not fast - but it is also NOT impossible.

i am talking about YOUR business too.
i just tell you that there is a huge group of people out there that does nothing else that buy - optimize - and make it profitable.

you will NEVER compete with this guys because they are universes ahead.

but why a fuck do you guys not try to reach these people by just adding a few really simple technical things.
this same technical things can even help the few webmasters that are skilled with this modern techniques.

it is available since 2007 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - 12 years ago !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it made the complete affiliate market in the whole world 1000 times bigger and you guys still don´t get it.

if you do not believe me ask andy wullmer (the traffic captain from trafficparter)
he was in that time CEO from SGM and SGM back than was the first company worldwide that implemented the clickid for me only (and they hated me for it first because they could not understand it too)

i start my 3rd billion right now as the first 2 did not work out :-)

old man, learn to read or learn to calculate and than come up with arguments or go to count the gras in your garden if you haven´t other stupid arguments that we heard now often enough.

accept that you are a loser because you do not understand the biz you want to teach us and you will never change to be a loser as you don´t want to understand the biz.

I started over from scratch just over a year ago with no financial investment, it took about 3 weeks to get to the numbers you're describing, and 3 months to hit five figures a month.

wich is great and shows that you know what you do.
congrats !

on the other hand i see every day people who do NOT know anything about this biz - do not even have the smallest idea of the available tools and how to use them and then complain it to the traffic.

if i have learned something than it this:

as long as traffic is real you can get money out of it if you know how

if you do not know how you will burn the best traffic in the world to ashes.

but actually we do have the tools and the knowledge to make money - as more i am astonished that people who do not comply with this circumstances are seeking other reasons for their misfortune.

That's great can we learn how you did it?

I looked around, saw what was making money, and copied it.

but be aware that this is also the natural enemy of every great concept.

everything what is easy to copy and is an easy money maker will bring many many others trying the same.

most good ideas haven´t been destroyed from the buyer market - they have been destroyed from the competitor market that cut the cake in too small pieces. the goldrush in USA might be one of this famous examples where the winners have been people like levis strauss. they did not care the gold they just counted the number of competitors and found out that THEY are the gold.

but i have started my webmaster career like that.
i copied and pasted sourcecodes of websites - changed them and tried to understand what everything makes.

as soon as i knew it i could also see when something is wrong and made it better.

I totally agree with you, I was just answering the original post, I started over from scratch and it wasn't hard.

Just a stepping stone :)

Thommy's entire philosophy is based on the new surfers coming to consume free porn will buy other porn and a few mainstream products but paysite porn. Which is bullshit.

We all know porn consumption is addictive, who wouldn't pay $30 to get 100, or even 500 porn clips. Downloading 500 in 30 days isn't impossible with a good connection, it's 17 a day.

We all know the best traffic is from people prepared to spend money online.

We all know the conversion rates on Tube videos is very low.

We all know the conversion on TGP was better by a factor of 10/20, because you had to buy if you wanted the full video.

But Thommy disputes that saying because if it's not free people will not buy porn and buy something else.

In 2006 there was still a thriving offline porn industry, we were selling to around 100 magazines. God knows how many porn DVD companies there were and a healthy cable market. Porn tubes killed off most of that.

Online there were 10,000s of sites, buying and producing content, 10,000s of affiliates all earning all or most of their money in porn, loads of content producers, designers, programmers, etc. Mostly gone now.

If I had started a similar thread back in 2005 there would have been loads of programs telling potential affiliates their product was the way to make money and telling them how to do it, affiliates eager to soak up the info. All we get now is "I looked around, saw what was making money, and copied it." As if seeing what is making money is a great secret. :1orglaugh

I come back to my original point the extra traffic means nothing. Because we all know extra traffic means extra potential buyers. If it's not given to them for free then they will buy.

In 1896 there was a thriving horse shoe industry, millions of horses needed new shoes all the time. Car manufacturers killed off most of that.

I agree. The same happened with porn. In 2006 there was a thriving porn industry both online and off. Today free porn has killed most of it off.

Are you still in Brno working with your partner or in Portugal doing what?

that is not what I said nor meant - but doesn't matter


Portugal? Why would I be in Portugal? :upsidedow

I guess stealing content :2 cents: ?

How true, I have based my mainstream business on the " fact" that VHS and rental shops will be with us at least another 50 years...Thank God porn came about :thumbsup

but sometimes things come back.
if i would be you i would prepare myself for the horseshoe biz.

This is not BS, Thommy´s correct in saying new surfers will watch the free porn and continue to purchase new fresh porn...

my hashtag is #freshporn because I literally film daily, I film a clip to all of my 100´s of paying fans for a morning wake up call, wishing them a horny day & then I film a 10 min scene, whether we go out and film outdoors, on my balcony or in bed, no matter, ALL my fans appreciate the daily updates & then, continue to ask me to film new vids, similar to those already filmed in the past, maybe a month before, but just filming a new scene say, with a huge red dildo or with a facial cumshot, just so it´s a new film.

There´s lots of money in porn and my fans are proving to me, there´s many people just want to see similar but new content month to month :2 cents:

I bless and appreciate all and every one of my online friends :thumbsup

That is by far the funniest thing I've read all month.

That's a hefty assumption...

What did you mean then?

I thought you announced a little whileback you were splitting with your partner and heading for Portugal. Are you still in Brno producing the same amount of content you did in 2010?

There is still a lot of money in porn, is there as much as there was or would be if we were selling it as the norm or giving it away for free. Would you be making more if your porn had to be bought, wasn't pirated and on free tubes?

Thommy is right people will watch free porn and some will purchase it 1-36,000. Where as the ratio on TGPs was 1-200.

Almost a decade, writing mostly for adult sites. Still going strong. Let me know if you need my services. Cheers.

no - that´s actually not what i am saying.
there might be users buying also porn but porn is inside a consumers budget the smallest part he spends money for.

just check your own budget ad see how much would be left at the end when you would be a porn buyer. it is not really much.

but there is much more in the rest of his budget and this is what we are grabbing.
no matter if this is dating or a real whore - if it is phonesex or penis enlargement. some even pay for getting rid of the porn addiction and we offer the ones that want to sell it via ads.

so in fact we do not really care much whatkind product someone wants to promote as long as it is legal - we are not in the risk - if someone is smart enough to sell it to porn users - fine - if not another will be. if this other, smarter one is someone that sells porn - also fine - but here we come to the fact that there are no pornsites out there that have the right tools for that. this means that mediabuyers will prefer to promote the products that ARE profitable that that HAVE such tools.
product owners will not be able to buy the traffic from us because it is too expensive for them.

porn might bring a lot of surfers - and this is the reason why it is used as a magnet. it is the same as news are used to bring servers. it is not for selling the news it is for selling something completely else.
i mean the very best examples are all this so called "influencers" that are spreading their free videos all over youtube and make the money with ads or recommendations about things that have nothing to do with this videos.

paul did not realize this new marketing world. he does not even have the smallest clue HOW big online marketing is today and how many people make millions with methods he have never heard about.

if paul sees you are drinking champaign he will tell you it is water because he simply does not know the difference.

i am not sure if you ever read what i write or just have the addiction to throw bullshit in a thread.

how long do you think an advertisers would pay for advertising when he have to pay 0,10 cent for a click and have a sale on every 36.000 click?

the user does not come to a tube to buy this video - he comes to watch it for free.
he pays with his COMPLETE purchasing power and not only with the 0,29% of the purchasing power he possibly spends for porn.

you are comparing apples with coconuts as you try to calculate conversion rates on a TGP posting.
IF you do the same with tubes you would see that the result is much better on a tube.
just because a tube have a few million users per day it does not mean that they are watching ALL videos there.
in average they are visiting 5-7 pages and if the variation of ads on this 5-7 pages is good they do at least ONE click.

so from our point of view we have a conversion rate of 1:5 - 1:7 with a few 100 million users per day. if this user is buying any kind of product after 100 clicks he have done - he is already more valueable as he ever was before.

if you would finally learn to calculate and KNOW how to compare numbers you would not talk such a bullshit.

Thommy is right, online porn has become a lot more professional. To make money as an affiliate, publisher, or product owner, you have to be a professional.

But I think Paul Markham has a point in this discussion too, and some people are quick to dismiss whatever he says.

This hasn't come up on this conversation, but the tube model still relies on using stolen content and DMCA being weak. Tube site owners don't like to talk about this, but their whole business relies on the weak DMCA copyright mechanism, letting them add full-length videos without really having to be afraid of anything.

I know some people who are talented, running profitable affiliate sites. They tried to build tube sites with only legal content. They failed. They couldn't get enough ad revenue without full-length vids. The visitors, hence the engagement metrics, hence search engine algorithms all favor the tubes that are full of stolen full-length videos.

Tubes are piggybacking off quality content being produced for OTHER CHANNELS. Tubes get the content for free (affiliate videos, stolen videos), then use the ad space next to the videos for ad networks and cam sites. This is not a sustainable model. It can work for 5 years, 10, maybe 15, as long as people keep giving them videos in hope of some return, and the others fail to enforce copyright.
Shitty mass produced $1 nonexclusive videos are good for filler content, but they won't make a tube popular and keep the visitors coming back.

There might be some exceptions, big tubes who can live off their brand names now, or even produce some quality videos. But for most tubes, the things above apply.

If you look at the bigger picture, piracy has always been profitable. Pirate sites = making other people's paid content available to the public for free.
Torrent trackers and file sharing sites also make a huge profit. Just look at Kim Dotcom.
Are torrent trackers / file sharing sites that different from tubes? They are somewhat different, but very similar in their business model. Guess what, ad networks' and cam sites' ads are also all over those other pirate sites.

Can you imagine how profitable it would be to create tubes with full-length Hollywood movies, and sell the ad space next to them? You could make millions. It's a great business model. But you can't make one, because it's illegal, it will get you in jail. The copyright laws ARE enforced in that space.

Something being profitable & being operated professionally does not mean it's a sustainable business model. Lots of scams (eg. spamming, card banging) are run by smart and professional people, but that doesn't make them right or make their business models the future of their industries. (Not saying that tubes are a scam.)

All that said, I have nothing against tubes, and not accusing anyone of anything. This is just how I see things. I understand the current situation in adult, and work with it. I think media buying is awesome and I admire people working in it. I might even give it a try. Thommy's posts are some of the best on GFY.

I just don't think it's right to call profiting off piracy / relying on weak copyright laws the future of adult business.

thommy schooled markham in this thread. No surprise to anyone but markham tbh. Good posts thommy - I always take note of your biz posts, and good to see this place getting back to a venue where there are more of those.

I guess I hould also thank paul... he may talk absolute shit 99% of the time, but at least his threads he continually posts where he attempts to trash the industry today almost always lead to solid informative posts from those who know what they are doing.

As I have said over and over, the ONLY way to live out Paul Markham's dream is to pass tougher, stronger laws that actually get enforced. The UK Age Verification statute is a step in the right direction but not strong enough.

And since no politician is going to advocate for stronger copyrights in Adult the ONLY way to get them to move on this issue is to bring up access. In other words: it's too easy for people under 18 to watch porn for free so we need to make adults pay for it again. Further, too much free porn is eroding the moral fabric of our societies, it would be argued, regardless of the age of who watches it. RESTRICTIONS MUST APPLY! :Oh crap

"But tubes are located in non-US territories where such laws do not apply!" Indeed - so do big Hollywood movies get pirated all over the world and the MPAA can do nothing about it? Yes - and no.

It's all about reduction, not elimination. Will there always be free porn? Yes - until the above happens, and even when/if it does a smart surfer will always know where to go to get his (free) porn fix. But for the 95% of humans who are too lazy, too law abiding, too "moral" or too ignorant, they will end up complying with age verifications, pay walls, etc. The good ol' days are back!

Any other discussions, fascinating as these are, are just verbal masturbation. So you can either play ball in a rigged game (as I and many others do) or walk away and do something else for a living. :)

I never said that things are fair or without problems.
you can do the free site biz in a legal or in an illegal way - same as you can do it with EVERY biz.


this is something that i see as a problem also.
and here we do not even talk about "stolen" content.
many tubes do have the tube rights and give legal access to embed codes.
and sure - they do´t do that to do this ones a favor who do not have the same options - they want something in return.

but i can see many sited that try to get rid of the embedded player and server the videos in their own player. I can tell you here that MOST of this people that do that do not even know that this is illegal.

but if we're talking about those who do it intentionally and consciously we actually do not talk about the biz I am talking about.

I am against this people same as I am against those that are stealing complete layouts, textwork and other work of publishers.

i can also tell you that there are a few networks and affiliate programs that are reacting and acting when things like that are known.
sure we can not go after those guys when they are sitting in russia, china, india or wherever - but we can cut them the pay-flow and this is what I am doing together with this networks and affiliate programs as soon as i find it out.

90% of all who try it fail - same as 90% who try to run membersites will fail.
we are talking here about 2 things where you need different skills.
if you want to run a tube site you must be perfect in traffic generation - if you want to run a membersite you must be perfect in finding affiliates and hold customers.

technical skills alone will not bring you anywhere - no matter what you are doing to make money.

the "good old times" paul talks about had the absolute same sale base.
TGPs and sites with preview videos. but they where only made to sell the original.

what we see today is something complete different.
the tubes today do not target the porn addicted or the "professional porn users" that know each name of each model - those users representing less than 1% of the tube visitors..
we are targeting the mass - even women and others that are watching porn from time to time.

this users we are targeting will spend money for everything but for porn.

I think you are overestimating this problem as this kind of tubes do not have the reach
the good made ones have. they are taking maybe 3-5% of the total cake.
they will also not have the success as they get so many DMCA complaints that they will never reach a high position in Google.

the good news are, that the producer market reacted already.
since everybody can buy tube material for 1 dollar it is not worth to steal it.
tubes with legal content getting more and more and they will dominate the market.

apart from that amateurs, membersites, download sites and even camsites give so much free content, because they found out that it is cheaper than paying 50% or more to affiliates. some of them even pay to get their free videos into the tubes.
just look how many submitting services are offered here at GFY.

producers just have to accept that thew can not sell to 2 or 3 customers anymore but to a few 1000.

again - tubes are not competing with this kind of users.
the users tubes are targeting do not even know names.
apart from that it is done - it happens. the big tubes like pornhub do have a paid area
and sell there this outstanding stuff to the few % that might like it.

and yes they use hollywood names for that:

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/08/be...ar-1202165798/

some people thought to sell fax machines is a sustainable business model.
every product have a product life cycle (corporate evolution)- there are even different mathematical formulas to calculate it.

i have never claimed that the present status quo will be eternal. that's exactly what's exciting about business, constantly reassessing these things and carrying your ship to where the water will go tomorrow.

but one thing is clear:
everywhere where there are masses, there is the possibility of financing through advertising. therefore the superbowl can also be financed through advertising and the world championship in 100-yard-sack-hopping not.

and i know already now that paul will veto exactly here because he will say that the broadcasting rights are also sold and not advertised. that is completely wrong because they are sold as advertising environment

I would like to make it clear here again that I am not in favor of criminals and thieves or my business built on it.

if you go to our website and try to find the button where you can register as a publisher, then you will be wasting time, because there is nothing but a contact form. simply because i don't see myself as a mother who feeds thieves and thieves on her breasts.

regarding the media buy:
If you can wait to 2020 and you are in travel mode - I will do a few workshops next year
in europe - just don´t have the dates and places fix yet.


I agree 100% - and that does not only fit for adult - it fits for ANY KIND of biz.

I want you think about the following:

image this surreal idea:

IF it would be possible to produce a car one time - after that everyone can press a button and copy it with no costs, no efford, no human work - do you think that people would buy cars?

or would it not make more sense to copy a car for each human with a few ads on it and make an industry from that?

HOW do you want to prevent USERS to copy content and make their own tube without advertising just on their harddisc?
how many videos does ONE human need for that?
even if he watches 3 full length videos every day of his life he would need need around
50.000 of them what is not even a tenth of what a big tube provides.

a tube just makes this hard disc unnecessary and with the adspots around it creates an industry what is the BASE of ALL OTHER industries in the world.

you guys are only mad because you can SEE that. but what you can NOT SEE are the numbers of stolen videos that are PRIVATELY exchanged.
if you would see THIS number you would realize that tubes are the MUCH MUCH smaller problem and advertising on free pornsites did not destroy but save the porn industry - even when the income flow have changed to a more indirect payment.

worldwide there are some roads under construction which have a technology to produce electricity when cars driving over them.

so toll roads can be turned into free roads and the more they are used the more profitable they become.

shit is not shit - you can grow trees with shit

I want you think about the following:

Try to respond to what I wrote and the points I made instead of that stream of what the fuck you just spit out.

Cars? Roads? Growing trees with shit? Dude what are you smoking? I was talking about passing laws, regulations and filters to endless free porn and your response was incoherent nonsense. Speak directly, not metaphorically as I have zero clue what the fuck you're going on about.

Oh - and I am not mad. LOL I am not one of those "you guys" like Paul Markham. I work with tubes and have done so since I began, at a time when EVERYONE was cursing them. So I, for one, DO play ball and have had a nice decade-long business because of it. I am a realist and therefore I am successful.

so you are actually talking about making banks stealth, right ?

and ? did it work?
are no banks robbed anymore?

you will NEVER be able to get the mafia out of the game as longs as there is money

UK avs law? shall i laugh?

As you know we had this laws in Germany much earlier than them and what they actually did was to make this biz bigger as it have been before. with just 2 differencies:

1. the webmasters went out of germany and the german law enforcement
2. they do not pay tax in germany

and as many of them learned the advantages of that, some of them are using the full "i give a shit on anybody".

so no it did not work and it did not make the rules fairer.

but even with all that circumstances the german market is one of the most beneficial markets in the world.

you can spend the whole year weeding weeds instead of sowing and reaping - or you accept that part of your harvest is destroyed by parasites.

you must not forget that we are moving in a biz that is outlawed all over the world. from the point of view of these parasites and any executive on this planet, they are the flu of the cancer that we represent.

i want to say this part a little clearer if you can't see the equations.

piracy was a much bigger topic in the so called "good old times"
megauplad - emule - and much much more was really popular in that time and it was not even clear if that is legal or illegal.

but your memebership business worked.

now AFTER all this really popular are all gone your business model does NOT work anymore.

so don´t you think it have to do with the biz-model ?
a basic law of logic says that the most obvious reason is usually the right one

The big movie studios would sue a site into the ground, porn can't afford to so the Tubes win. That's the way life is now.

Would we make more money if we went back to selling porn instead of giving so much away to sell ad space?

Thommy lives in a world where he can spin this shit.

Better laws are required. When it was only shops any adult could access porn all he had to do was walk into the shop. Children were turned away by the shop owner not the parents. Today no child is stopped from watching porn and no site owner does anything about it, maybe a spot in prison would help them think about it.

Porn shops didn't need to display hardcore porn in the window, but people still walked in and bought. If we were at the level of free porn we had in 1998 would as many still buy as they do today of would millions more buy? Every day.

We can't do nothing about it, we're not rich enough to sue, not powerful enough to get governments behind us. So we have to do whatever we can.

Could you pick up sites to sell to the end user if those sites could earn more without you? Then could you afford to build your own site with your own money, which 10,000s did before tubes killed so many sales?

I can't believe you guys think government regulation would actually help the adult industry.

there is no free porn on a German .de domain

if the rest of the world did the same they did, there would be no free porn at all (online).

but since that didn't happen, it just made all German porn companies move to different countries (with very few exceptions that did comply)

paul. but the industry would not survive with the peanuts you made.

actually the whole porn industry was ALWAYS depending on ads.
the only difference to now is that nobody else takes the risk as the one who thinks he have a good product.

and that means: that the ones who do not have it are not on our pay list anymore.

adapt or die - that´s the hard truth you just learn about biz.
you had a lifetime to learn it earlier.

And about online porn killing offline porn and tubes stealing and subsequently killing the paysite business:

I know how in the late 1990ties offline porn companies were approached to license their content for web - back then for a lot of money. They said no cause they feared for their DVD sales and so websites started doing their own production.

I also know how tubes in the beginning tried to license content - once again for good money back then - but they were turned down by mostly everyone. I also refused to license to tubes in the beginning. Stupid, stupid mistake.

That tubes then resorted to "user uploads" (haha) delivered a double blow to paysites and producers - no money for existing content and losing their members.

But what also needs to be said: When tubes came up, they simply delivered a superior product: streaming, clean sites, no viruses, no credit card banging and a shitload of content.

Compared to 20 videos in 320x240 for $29.95 a month plus 3 cross-sells - the standard "premium exclusive site" in early 2000...

There are paysite companies who understood and adapted, so it wasn't like tubes forced everyone else to die. Most paysite owners were just not competent enough to run a professional business because making money before was far too easy.

that "little while back" was almost 2 years ago - as you can see from my sig, I still run AmazingContent.com – high quality licensed and custom adult content - the last time I produced content myself is about 15 years back.

and i went to Portugal once to attend the EU Summit.

but it's nice there.

I agree that the porn biz was always about ads. I wrote for Penthouse magazine back in the day and would get around $5000 per article, sometimes twice that amount. How could they afford to pay me that much for my writing? Subscriptions and newsstand sales yes but mostly through selling ad space based on circulation. That's how they could afford to pay photographers like Paul, too.

But do not assume the paysite business model is dead. It is not. If it were then WHY do people keep opening them and releasing new ones? Because paysites are the ONLY place where traditional "content" (pictures and videos) come from. Sure you can tape a cam show but that's not really the same thing.

But like with most things adult-related you have to re-adjust your expectations. It is NOT 2006 anymore so creating a paysite that will generate millions in revenue is extremely difficult these days (but not impossible). Conversations like these always degenerate into the EASIEST way to make a buck, or the most profitable. Paysites can be "the most profitable" since they are selling finished products that can generate revenue for years after production ceases. But are they the quickest way to riches? Not anymore no. But that doesn't mean they aren't still a viable option for consumers and quite profitable still.

Email me please at mb -at- lifeselector.com

:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

:thumbsup

as much as you schooled paul earlier, I just want to point out that the ad industry is different to the porn industry. When I make $$$ as an affiliate, I'm in the ad business. When I make $$$ with content I produce I'm in the porn business.

Carry on.

i never said they are dead - that was paul who said that.

but porn-membersites are not "the product" anymore that would keep thousands of affiliates alive as the buyer market is limited.

I also said that the existing ones COULD get a bigger attention when it comes to affiliate IF they would fulfill the needs of the new affiliate generation.
within all my advertisers there are just 2 that send a bit traffic to paysites because there are just a very few that are offering this options.

i think you missmatch here something.
if you are right the big tubes would have nothing to do with the porn biz.
but if you ask people out there they will tell you exactly those names when you ask them who the porn biz is.

actually the tubes are also selling content - they just use another way to get paid.
users don´t come there because they want to see ads - they come for porn.

the difference might be the same as free tv and pay tv but both are in the tv-biz and both are attracting their customers with (mostly the same) movies.

porn production does not make a biz.
same as shoe production will not make a biz.

the big error here is that you can not cut a part of a very big circle out and call it the biz.

not even the whore on the corner is a standalone biz because she would not stay on this corner if there would not be another attraction that brings people there. she would not stand there if there would not be a way to come there and she would not know where to go with the customer when there would not be an hour-hotel in the near.

if you try to understand economy from this side you will see how complex it actually is and how many obviously not connected businesses are depending on each other.

if someone would not make the internet a biz - nobody would sell anything in there.
if someone else would not make delivery to it´s biz - the internet could not be used to sell physic goods. if someone would not make payment to it´s biz - the goods bought could not be paid. and if the first one that made internet to it´s biz would not get a competitor it would be still a very very small and limited market as it would be too expensive for the mass.

an economy is an unmanageable large organism in which one wheel turns into the other. and you can look at this machine down to the smallest wheel and you will find that it does not stop there that wheels interlock.

this is also where most misjudgements and management mistakes happen because many people look too much at this single wheel and not at the big machinery where the big trends and tendencies emerge.
if you learn to look at the big picture, you will see that almost every future development is predictable.

I agree, which is why I posted what I did. You have posted a few times now in response to porn biz people (markham, porn nerd) that the ad biz powers their porn biz (disclaimer: I've possibly misinterpreted what you've said).. it doesn't.

And tubes *aren't* in the porn biz, they are in the ad biz, despite what some joe public surfer who just wants a wank might think.

Their *market* is the porn market, obviously, but their business is ads -either directly, or as affiliates.

To use MG as an example, their paysites like brazzers etc are 'the porn biz', and their tubes are 'the ad biz'. As you rightly say, you can't just say MG are 'the porn biz' - that's only a part of their business.

Most affiliates & ad guys struggle to make the distinction, but it's there.

From what I can see, you guys (you, markham, porn nerd, in the latter part of this thread) are coming at the conversation from very different viewpoints, which is why you are each struggling to get the 'other side' to understand the specifics, and that's the reason why I brought it up, because it's an interesting thread but has started to go round in circles. And yes I know you ran paysites so know that side as well, it's just not factoring in to your points here, as far as I can see.

ps dick pills, and dating aren't porn either, even if they come under the umbrella of 'adult'

I agree with all the above, but eg you cannot say hotels that do 1 hour bookings are in the prostitution biz, when streetwalkers are asking why there are less johns driving past. Coming in as the owner of 12 hotels that offer this, and saying '1 hour room hotels drive the streetwalker biz' which is kinda what you are doing.. either by the language barrier, or just me being a thick cunt... both of which are equally likely. Hotels are in the hotel biz, regardless if 100% of their clients are street walkers.

But.. rather than get into another 15 posts to go into analogy after analogy, my point was: you aren't looking at what porn nerd (and others) do as a separate thing to what you do, and that's causing a loop.

They can't fulfil those needs of the new aff generation because the payouts to affiliates aren't high enough.. that's the single reason. You can't raise the payouts (by much) because the product (paysites) has been devalued by theft and workarounds like dmca, and used as free inventory to sell products B,C, etc (pills, dating). You can't bid on a space that is giving you $40, $50, $60 per paysite join when you are bidding against placements that give out $70+ per pill sale. Which I think is one of the points being brought up - far from 'driving' porn, the ad space as it is now is killing porn - to a degree.

For paysite owners it's slightly different with regards to ad networks, as their LTV is a lot higher ofc (which you touched on in one of your earlier posts).

What are you scared of?

Men will always use porn to jerk off to, be it a girl in a bikini or a girl getting gang banged.

We made $billions from a much softer form of porn in the 90s.