overdose

I never paid a fucking income tax in my life and tax authority never harrased me... learn to hide...

AmeliaG

What Robbie said.

Total tax paid for a year, once filing is complete, is the significant number.

Getting money back or sending it in, at that time, just shows how close estimates were and has ZERO to do with whether someone got a cut.

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Bladewire

So many pissed off Trump supporters losing so many deductions.

VRPdommy

I had asked the same question when I seen the data.
That chart represents Federal Income taxes only.
Not knowing their situation for state taxes ?
And in some states, a incentive tax deduction can exclude you from local school taxes, like Pa, but Ohio does not allow this. So each state has it's own rules for local exceptions.
And I am not sure if they are referencing taxes (all) even outside the US when they state what they are paying out. But those fed taxes in that chart are verifiable correct.
So watch the what and how they say it to muddy the water.

Yes, plenty of confusion on taxes, so I am always skeptical from some of the junk I have checked on myself.
I had listened to Exxon Mobil make the statement and somewhat complaining many times, that they pay more taxes than any US company.
It could be true depending on how you want to count the marbles.

But it really isn't correct to say it that way and here is why.
Exxon counts all the money shelled out to land owner rights on federal land as taxes (royalty money for oil on public lands that goes to the treasury, it's taxpayer money, it's taxpayer land, it's taxpayer royalty).

So, it would be true that they probably give the US government more money than any other company, but it's not all in taxes. Probably much less than half of it is taxes.

Now that I have said that, you may understand why I always pay attention to 'how they say it'
because if you 'listen to the news rather than watch it' you pick up on selective use of words that are used to create a smoke screen of a lie. It's not really a lie, just very misleading.
I got pretty good at this 20 years ago. politicians do it alot, company's too.
There is always more questions to be asked when they are not using what you would think is 'normal wording'. Gets my attention immediately.

Oh... and remember when any of them say how much they pay in sales taxes that is not so. They collect sales taxes from you and pay the state.
Company's especially retailers, do not pay sales taxes.

AmeliaG

Seriously, dude, it's just math, not a matter of opinion. What deductions were lost beyond certain entertainment expenses and the maximum itemized deduction on a very new mortgage for a wildly expensive house?

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VRPdommy

local taxes deductions

Robbie

Bingo. And that tax deduction gave the "green light" to a few states to overtax the fuck out of their citizenry.

Basically the 2 states affected the most are New York and California. Trump's "revenge" on those "blue" states. lol

I don't know how people stay in either New York or California. New York's state and local and property taxes are outrageous.

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AmeliaG

Again the local taxes deduction changes, as I understand them, primarily impact only high income people. What annual income are you considering to be so downtrodden they need more of a break than they will get with caps on local tax deductions? Keeping in mind that people whose income derives from business activity, as I understand it, are getting new breaks.

Disclaimer: hire a professional accountant and have them tell you whether you are doing worse or better and what the broader impacts are. Don't learn accounting principles from agendized news and GFY.

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VRPdommy

I don't believe in discrimination with taxes. Everyone should pay the same rate at all levels.
But also give everyone a 17k personal deduction + 4k per dependent to be fair.

Anything less is class warfare.
So complex have the filings come to be, most can't tell when a particular class is getting the better deal. That is the way they want it.

Bladewire

Why are you lying again?

On your federal tax return you deduct any state & local taxes you paid the previous year.

The IRS changed its local & state tax deductions for certain states Trump wanted to target to pay more for 2018; California, New York, etc. You dope.

IRS issues notice on state and local tax deductions

"The U.S. Department of the Treasury and the Internal Revenue Service issued a notice today stating that proposed regulations will be issued addressing the deductibility of state and local tax payments for federal income tax purposes. Notice 2018-54 also informs taxpayers that federal law controls the characterization of the payments for federal income tax purposes regardless of the characterization of the payments under state law."

Robbie

I see it the "old fashioned" way.
People who get money from the govt. but don't pay ANY taxes are getting a so-called "better deal".

People who are employees and have their taxes taken out of their check each week and think they are high on the hog at the end of the year when they get a "refund" are sheep.

True middle class business owners (like myself) are getting a MUCH better deal through this lowered tax rate. I'm an LLC corporation since 1998.
Already this year I have re-invested new money in my business. Bought a brand new camera (the awesome Canon xf-705), new lights, and also a brand new wireless system for the audio.
Bought 2 new cars as well.
And don't get me started about the thousands of dollars I blew on music equipment for my band just since Dec.

And no, I didn't buy it with my "tax break". I bought it because the economy is roaring and we are making money. My confidence is up...as it is in the rest of the country's consumer confidence, far above anything over the last decade.

All of that adds up to charging up the economy. Which was THE point of the tax breaks...along with creating the right business environment to create new and HIGH PAYING jobs.

In my opinion...we are ALL getting a "better deal" because of the obvious common sense benefits to economic growth.

Now the 44% of Americans who pay NO Federal Income Tax? Of course they want those of us who do pay to pay MORE!
My opinion of that? Fuck them.

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Bladewire

Clearly you don't have money or investments.

You are really fucked in the head saying our economy with increased inflation in 2018, and negative growth of -2.8 percent and failing auto & electronics industries due to Trump's tarrifs is "roaring".

I'm not even going to mention the stock market. Well oh 1 link

2018 was the worst for stocks in 10 years

Now go back and take Trump's cum in your mouth minion.

Dollar drops after retail data shows U.S. economy is continuing to slow

VRPdommy

Robbie, you know we could argue till the moon turns orange with pink dots and neither of us will really know who is paying the bulk of the taxes. But the IRS shows us it has been those in the middle.
We can't begin to talk the complexity of corp taxes.
Only personal taxes.

That's why I say it should be the same rate for everyone at all levels.

I can't find a real justifiable reason to discriminate with the rate.
Want to help the poor. Increase the standard deduction and everyone gets the same treatment.

But many discussing these issues are not separating biz tax vs personal itx.
So not everyone here is taking the same color orange. Many are not familiar with biz taxes or only as a proprietor. Not Corp or LLC.

But I will say for as long as we can subsidize farms and oil company's, we can subsidize people too.
I would like to get rid of all those subsidies. tax everyone the same. Stop this class warfare.

Robbie

I've never understood why there should be a "progressive" tax.

A flat tax would be fine with me.
And of course under a certain yearly income...no taxes at all. The poor can't pay tax when they are barely getting by.

I'd say personal income tax should be a flat 15%. You net a hundred grand a year...cut the govt. a $15,000 check. You net a million a year...cut the govt. a $150,000 check.

As for corporate tax...I'd say make it ZERO. Make the United States THE place to set up your business and hire people.
But that's just my opinion.
I'm sure that there are lots of people right here on GFY who don't have two nickels to rub together and pay minimal tax that just want to tax the fuck out of corporations and "the rich".

And the way you see the results of that are to take a look at companies fleeing high tax states and moving to states with NO state income tax.
Works the same way on a Federal level.

Companies have been moving shit out of our country, and instead of our govt. lowering corporate taxes in the past and luring businesses in...they simply created new tax laws to "chase" that money in other countries.

I know that when my taxes are lower...I have more money to spend (duh). And that's exactly what I do.

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VRPdommy

Robbie, i hope you realize that some country's offer a subsidized -0- taxation to get those company's to locate there.
And congress has passed legislation at least twice in the last 20 years that allows tax advantage to those 'multinational' company's that move their headquarters outside the US.
And there are plenty of other reasons for most of that movement.

A quick story,
A solar panel manufacture in the 90's who made the best cells in the industy was bought-out by BP just as they were building one of the most advance manufacturing facilities ever.
One of their competitors decided to beat this arrangement with just as good of tech, they needed to move production to China.
Once that company took the high tech manufacturing technique over there and made for some stiff competition, others moved as well because if they didn't, they were done.

Then, BP moved there manufacturing over there as well about 6-7 years ago. no choice by then.
So that advance facility in Virginia sits empty and a transfer of tech has been made and nobody can really compete with Chinese manufactures.
But I could not understand the reasoning. these were highly automated plants so it was not about labor at the time and that was what was being said about it.
It was incentivized by the Chinese government.


Taxes are only high by perception. You are not counting the benefits of being in that country. And only high when you compare them to someone who is lower.

What a benefit when the banks/oil company's were storing oil in tankers of the African coast to JACK the price of oil 12 years ago and we had to send the US military to defend them. And they like to complain about their tax rates ...
Go Figure !

If corporate taxes were -0- , they would ask us to pay them to create every job.
That is just how it works.... MORE MORE MORE

As the auto co's were making record profits year over year, they bake those margins in for the next year and if they do not make them yet again, they would claim they are loosing money hand over fist. Inflation is built into American manufacturing via profit levels and margins

Bladewire

Another Trump voter vows she never vote Republican again

Trump supporters didn't realize Trump's Tax Cuts and Jobs Act meant tax cuts for the 1%

Colorado woman's $8,000 tax bill leaves her in tears

tfto

Where does it say she is a Trump supporter?. News Flash. Colorado is a heavy Democratic state. You take stupid to a level no one else can achieve.

RedFred

Colorado is not a "heavy democratic state", it's a purple state with a 3rd registered dems, a 3rd registered repubs, and a 3rd independent.

VRPdommy

This group of Americans will most likely get the biggest tax refunds

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/this...perts-say.html

Families with kids will likely see the biggest refund

The majority of taxpayers who usually take the standard deduction may see more money in their pocket, but this does not necessarily mean it will show up in their refund

AmeliaG

The median household income is $50k to $70k, varying by state. Average standard deduction is now $24k, right? That IRS link caps the itemized deduction for state and local taxes at $10k. So that means there are mathematically zero middle income households getting taxed higher. For example, in order to pay $10k+ in taxes in California, a household would have to earn more than $107k in income. So, at $107k, that is still fully deductible.

The median home price is $200k. The most likely so-so interest rate is approximately 5%. That means the interest rate deduction on an average home is less than $10k. As $10k is less than $24k, that indicates that middle class Americans have no need to itemize and pay less in taxes with this plan. For it to be worth itemizing, a home would have to cost like half a mill and be owned for less than 3 years for this to be a minus.

So, did some people lose under the new plan? Possibly yes for people who are high income and do not make their income from business and do not make their income from sales and who own very expensive houses that they have only owned for a short time.

So are folks really crying for people with six figure cubicle jobs, which have none of their compensation tied to performance, and who recently purchased super expensive homes in high income tax states?

Do the math.

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PornoMonster

So, people nee to add the $30 a week or so to the total return they are getting... For a true refund amount. I don't mind getting less back as I got it during the year, and to Gov didn't hold it. What you need to look at is how much did you make, your taxable income, and how much your amount of taxes is....

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Robbie

I'm pretty sure when you have to explain that to people...then you are talking to people who have no clue. Don't waste your time. I've tried for years to talk sense to them. They aren't interested in that. They are only interested in fighting and arguing on the internet.

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AmeliaG

Is it too much to ask that the equation be like

2+2=4

And not

2+2=giraffe

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AmeliaG

Exactly. The question is how much is the tax burden, not how much did the government borrow without paying interest and then give back in a refund.

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Bladewire

A list of the few deductions erased by the Trump administration for 2018

The standard $6,350 deduction.

Personal exemptions.

Unlimited state and local tax deductions.

A $1 million mortgage interest deduction.

An unrestricted deduction for home equity loan interest.

Deductions for unreimbursed employee expenses.

Miscellaneous itemized deductions.

A deduction for moving expenses.

Unrestricted casualty loss deduction.

Alimony deduction.

Deductions for certain school donations.

Deductions from tax extenders.

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VRPdommy

We all know that the larger political issue here is expectations.
For many voters, they were told it was a big tax break for them.
We all (at least I did) knew that for the lower and middle class, it was a lowering of withholding for that weekly 'feel rich' via more expendable income from a paycheck.
(same as has been done twice before in my lifetime anyway)

Many folks spent as normal, that extra money at Christmas as they expected to pay back with their 'expected normal refund'.

So you have a poor perception from voters on both sides of the political spectrum.
You are not going to repair that perception before the next presidential election. But they can demonize the other side. I'm not sure how but I know they are creative folks.

But truth be told, now these taxpayers are probably going to be in longer term hawk with their credit cards. So spending will go down for the near-term while they pay them down over a longer period, and so the economy takes a dip with less expendable income.

Right wrong or indifferent on the taxes, it's not going to work out well politically for the republicans but trump has taken credit for making these tax breaks so the party can just blame him even though they were drafting them before trump won his party nom.

So, however it came to be that Amazon, the fastest growing and now largest retailer, pays nothing in federal tax on $11B in profits, it just has bad optics no matter what the reason is.

If Wall-Mart has something similar, it's going to look really bad.

After all, someone has to pay for the infrastructure that makes these folks biz a success.
And that is the only part that burns my ass when we hear the best biz's paying no taxes.
Capitalism is suppose to serve democracy, not own it.

Bladewire

In all honesty Trump supporters were expecting a larger than usual refund, as promised by Trump and his "booming economy" and well publicized "Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017"

Now they're being told by the GOP that they were stupid for not doing something they were never told to do, increasing their withholdings. There's nothing worse than telling your constituents that they were too stupid & poor to take advantage of tax cuts for the extremely wealthy.

AmeliaG

I showed with clear math above that the few people not getting a tax break are those with six figure incomes not based on sales, performance, or entrepreneurship. Even in that pool of people, they are probably still getting a break, unless they recently bought an extremely expensive house with a low downpayment.

Please give me ANY example, with actual math, of how someone making less than six figures could end up paying more in taxes.

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AmeliaG

Why should poor and middle class people be handing out year long loans to strangers?

PS the way stock compensation for employees is handled is one of the main ways Amazon avoided certain taxes and that was Bill Clinton legislation. The other biggie was by investing in R&D, which both D and R administrations have supported.

Bladewire

Please show me where I said people were paying more in taxes.

You, and I, both know that I said nothing about people paying more tax.

I'm not sure why you're playing that shell game with me.

My post clearly outlined people's expectations vs results.

I've also posted here several times the list of deductions people are no longer able to make due to Trump's scam "tax cut".

People like us have accountants we don't have to worry about this. Trump's constituents are not like us and they don't have accountants and they do worry about this and they are paying more and they expected to pay and that's your parties problem do to your parties failure.

Trump supporters were expecting a tax break, in their mind that means more money at the end of the year.

Instead Trump supporters are getting a tax penalty, in their minds, by paying more at the end of the year.

Now your party is fucked due to poor messaging to it's core constituents. Oh well, not so superior after all

AmeliaG

Dude, you know I'm not a Republican.

I do, however, believe math questions should be answered with numbers.

None of the tax changes you mentioned are bad for poor and middle income people.

That means that the Trump administration did give tax breaks.

So, is your point that Trump did give tax breaks, but it is your opinion that the only people capable of understanding this correctly are dying to vote against their own interests?

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AmeliaG

Also, FFS, here is where you said regular Americans weren't getting the tax breaks they are getting. This is why I asked you to come up with ANY likely scenario where people earning less than six figures are not getting a cut.

Apparently you are unable to come up with the math for any poor or middle income earners not getting a tax break.

Can you come up with examples of new tax breaks only applicable to the wealthy?

Did you earn more this year or in 2014?

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VRPdommy

I didn't say they should.
I also do not care who's fault down the line it is.
I am saying it all is not right and should be drastically changed to one rate for all on personal income tax.

Whatever point you are trying to make, you need to better explain it outside of quoting me for reasons you are not showing.

VRPdommy

I have yet to see anyone say the poor are paying more...
You are making things up to argue against.
I stated the case of 'PERCEPTIONS' on the issue and you apparently are mixing stuff up in your head.

There is very little change in personal rates and effective rates for Americans. Some deductions

Corporations got a reduction of top rates from 35% to 21%
A repatriation foreign earnings that they have been amassing at a rate of 15.5 percent for cash and 8 percent for other assets.

The growth that was suppose to happen from these tax breaks (job creation) end up being stock buy backs helping the CEO's that have a incentive to do so. So I would say they are making out pretty good for no extra effort... except perhaps a little lobbying.

Jobs are contrary to profits. Why would they want to do that. No bonus in it for them.

After the dust has settled and the stock market expects these new levels, what then when they can not continue to produce them ? Because that is how the street works.
They will be crying the blues and finding someone or something else to blame it on.

The truth is they have made the whole process much more complex than it needs to be and inside that complexity are the methods to avoid taxes.
I use plenty of them. I like them when they help me, but that does not make them right.

AmeliaG

If perception is what matters, why did you make a thread and thread title likely to give people the inaccurate idea that working poor and middle class Americans did not get a tax break?

You agree they did get a tax break.

You state that perception is important.

So why are you trying to promote inaccurate perceptions?

Also, what do you do in this industry?

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VRPdommy

Are you just stroking for a issue you feel you can win ?
If you wish to poke a individual statement I made, do it. "But make it coherent and truthful".


>You agree they did get a tax break.
-WHERE DID I SAY THAT and WHO IS 'THEY'?
>You state that perception is important
- No I stated what I think the perception is likely to be for voters next election.

Perhaps you just fail understanding of what you read.
You make what you read something other than what was intended just to make a argument.
Find someone else to argue with. Got something good to say, I'd like to hear that.

AmeliaG

You stated you had zero examples of how anyone earning less than six figures was not given a tax break.

You stated your point was just about perception, yet you are the one making misleading thread titles etc.

Did you have a point you just haven't mentioned yet?

In the English language, a pronoun generally refers back to the most recently mentioned matching subject e.g. in this instance, the working poor and middle class got a tax break = they got a tax break. Did this grammar lesson help?

I'll demonstrate with an example:
"If perception is what matters, why did you make a thread and thread title likely to give people the inaccurate idea that working poor and middle class Americans did not get a tax break?

You agree they did get a tax break."

What do you do in this industry or are you just a fake nick troll to be ignored?

VRPdommy

You are a flake ! And should ignore me. Start your own on English lessons.

VRPdommy

If I give $1,000 to charity and I’m in a 10 percent tax bracket, I get $100 back on my taxes
But if I’m in a 35 percent tax bracket, I get $350 back from the federal government from the same 1k donation.

Top personal tax rate, "37 percent" from 39.6 percent
The group getting the largest cut is Families earning from $200,000 to $1 million and will see their tax bills drop about 9 percent.

The corporate top rate moved to "21%" percent from 35% and could be 20% if they are a pass-through like real estate.

Federal Estate and 'Gift Tax' Limit from $5.49B to $11.18B (basically double the limit)

'Average' personal rates dropped in 2018, but they'll return to 2017 levels by 2026 unless further acted upon.

That data is from Congress...
Congress’s official scorekeeper, the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation

But numbers are numbers. But the ones we really need to see is the 'effective tax rate' after all deduction were used.
Were not going to know that and there is nobody wanting to put that info forward.

Some, like Warren buffet have showed us their effective tax rate.
His 2010 “federal tax rate” of 17.4 percent was 18.6 percentage points 'less' than the 36.0 percent average rate paid by the 20 other workers in his office
I do not think the new tax policy has made this any better. Only worse.

Robbie

What do you mean "get it back"??? It's YOUR money.

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Robbie

That's right. Personal income taxes are dropped down for ten years. Trump wants to make it permanent. Congress...well, let's just say Pelosi doesn't want to give us anymore "crumbs" (as she called the tax break).

Also if the Republicans lose the Senate...it's all moot anyway. The Democrats will raise all taxes...they already promised to.

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King Mark

Bruh... Lmao

VRPdommy

Robbie, I guess you missed the point that it is not treated the same for everyone.
Most of the complexity of returns hides the fact that discrimination is much deeper than the tax rates themselves.

As I say, one rate for all and let's get rid of most of these deductions and lower that one rate for all.

I am a bit weary of the class warfare going on when it come to taxes.

As GW Bush described Regan's tax plan.... smoke and mirrors...
That is what this complexity creates. The average tax payer is to passive about this.
But they will complain when it hits their wallet. And do nothing.