Patriot act taking some hits in California

[Jeffery]

http://www.bordc.org/Santa_Cruz.html

Though this is probably a Democrat thing to try to hit at the administration...

Do you think this is a good thing or bad thing? No local officer in Santa Cruz may assist in operations under the Patriot Act.

[Paul Markham]

It seems that the US is no longet the land of the free, if what I just read was half true.

The goverment has given itself and law enforcement powers that are are a direct opposite of the United States Constitution and Declaration of Independence.

How long before the Patriot Act is challenged in the Supreme Court?

[Mishi]

Charly, you are a fantastic photographer, and I do admire the fact that you seem interested in keeping abreast of US laws, but you, like many other non US citizens here, lack an essential understanding of what makes this country tick.

Stupid laws like the Patriot Act come into being because Americans are essentially lazy. Why are they lazy? Because they can be - it's almost guaranteed that somebody else will take care of most problems that crop up. Laws such as those contained in the so-called patriot act (I refuse to capitalize it) are unconstitutional. They will not stand up in court. (Granted, nobody wants to be the test case - but somebody will, and then the laws will be thrown out.)

To a degree, I'm playing the devil's advocate here. I HATE what Shrub is doing to this country - and, despite being a hardcore liberal, I'm perfectly willing to agree that Clinton let a lot of nasty shit get through the legislature, as well. (Yes, okay, fine, and he actually pushed some of it through. I still like him. Leave me alone.) But what I think a lot of people who don't live in the US don't understand is that laws here don't just come down like an iron fist - there will be test cases, there will be hours and hours and hours of discovery and discussion, there will be protests, etc., etc., etc. Eventually, MOST bad laws will be thrown out.

In one year (please G-d) or five, Shrub will be history. Balance will return and all will be right with the world.

In the mean time, I'll be seriously considering a move the the United Surfer Community of Santa Cruz...

[andi_germany]

I am a non US citizen but I have lived there for a long time. It's always hard to understand how someone can decide something that is against his own believes just because it is deemed unpatriotic to think against the stream.

I think the worst problem in the US legislation is that it is possible to take a popular bill that makes sense and then pervert it by adding all kind of other shit to it to make the lobbiest happy. Then the shit gets passed and it is against the constitution if you look at it closely even though the original bill made complete sense.

[KRL]

Legislation is created by either of two things:

1. Lots of complaints from constituents.

or

2. Lots of money routed through lobbyists representing special interests with a particular agenda.

[VirtuMike]

Fuck I want to move to Santa Cruz!

[VirtuMike]

Bill of Rights pared down to a manageable six:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3847/bill_of_rights.html

Love this one... Especially the right to being protected by the soldiers quartered in your home.

[Fletch XXX]

We try to challenge things that take away freedom here.

Decriminalize is next.

[VirtuMike]

If America could figure out a way to throw you out of the country and still make a permanent residual income from you and your family and all its descendants, they would do it without hesitation.

-VirtuMike

[theking]

Originally posted by charly
It seems that the US is no longet the land of the free, if what I just read was half true.

The goverment has given itself and law enforcement powers that are are a direct opposite of the United States Constitution and Declaration of Independence.

How long before the Patriot Act is challenged in the Supreme Court?

There is not any doubt but that certain aspects of the Patriot Act will be challeged at some point in time...and may, or may not, be upheld by the Supreme Court. One reason that the Supreme Court may possibly uphold certain aspects of the Patriot Act is the fact that the USA is at war...war was declared on Terrroists and those countries that may provide safe harbor for Terrorists. Most "experts" believe that the war will last from 10-30 years. This will be the, possibly, persausive argument used before the Court.

[theking]

The Patriot Act is to help protect US citizens from the bad guys (remember 9/11). If every aspect of the Patriot Act were to be upheld by a court challenge...in theory it only hurts the bad guys...not the good guys. Will there be an occasional abuse of the power...absolutely...and abuses will be addressed when this happens.

[Probono]

We the citizens of this "land of the free" are not nearly as free as the citizens of many other countries.

Individual freedom to live your life has been comprimised in the name of collective security by a government that does not always tell the truth.

[greentea]

big brother is always watching

[theking]

Originally posted by Probono
We the citizens of this "land of the free" are not nearly as free as the citizens of many other countries.

Individual freedom to live your life has been comprimised in the name of collective security by a government that does not always tell the truth.

No government always tells the truth. I am 45 years old and I do not feel any loss of basic freedom. When my freedom or someone that I know has their rights abused as outlined in the Bill of Rights then I will become concerned...but as long as it is just bad guys being hurt...I am not concerned.

[evilpurple]

Originally posted by theking
The Patriot Act is to help protect US citizens from the bad guys (remember 9/11). If every aspect of the Patriot Act were to be upheld by a court challenge...in theory it only hurts the bad guys...not the good guys. Will there be an occasional abuse of the power...absolutely...and abuses will be addressed when this happens.

The Patriot Act "in theory" hurt anyone opposing whatever government is currently in power, as it makes it trivially easy for someone in power to abuse their position to weaken opposition. While many people think the current US government is full of complete idiots (few US presidents have ever been seen as so dangerous and so clueless by the international public except perhaps for Reagan), any abuse from the current government is likely to be relatively light.

But what if the law stays? Are you willing to take the risk of what might happen if some government 20, 30 or 40 years from now decides to abuse their powers? Not only that, but are you willing to take the risk that these power grabs from the government acts as a magnet for people that would like to use those powers for their own goals?

Restricting the powers of a government should NEVER be done based on "but if used right, their new powers will give great results" basis. It should be used on the basis "if we grant these powers now, and somebody decides to abuse them, how much damage can they possibly do?" basis.

Think of any of your favorite dictators, and ask yourself "How much damage could that person do with this law?". Read a good history book and see how many dictators had massive public support when they first grabbed power.

If someone is elected in the next election, and decides to abuse the Patriot Act, how many lives can he destroy? Whats the chance it can be used to destroy democratic institutions and destroy the opposition, or at least massively weakening them? (Look at Zimbabwe for a good example of what something as simple as control over infrastructure and food distribution can do in a less fortunate country)

Lunatics are born every day - do you want a country with laws that protect you against them, or provide them with weapons, whether they are inside or outside government?

Laws like the patriot act may protect you against lunatics outside government, but they can also be a tremendous weapon for someone who wishes to weaken or stamp out democracy.

In effect, they're a huge victory for the 9/11 terrorists: The terrorists managed to take away more freedom from Americans in the form of new overreaching laws and regulations than they could ever have hoped for achieving in any other way.

[ThunderBalls]

Originally posted by evilpurple


The Patriot Act "in theory" hurt anyone opposing whatever government is currently in power, as it makes it trivially easy for someone in power to abuse their position to weaken opposition. While many people think the current US government is full of complete idiots (few US presidents have ever been seen as so dangerous and so clueless by the international public except perhaps for Reagan), any abuse from the current government is likely to be relatively light.

But what if the law stays? Are you willing to take the risk of what might happen if some government 20, 30 or 40 years from now decides to abuse their powers? Not only that, but are you willing to take the risk that these power grabs from the government acts as a magnet for people that would like to use those powers for their own goals?

Restricting the powers of a government should NEVER be done based on "but if used right, their new powers will give great results" basis. It should be used on the basis "if we grant these powers now, and somebody decides to abuse them, how much damage can they possibly do?" basis.

Think of any of your favorite dictators, and ask yourself "How much damage could that person do with this law?". Read a good history book and see how many dictators had massive public support when they first grabbed power.

If someone is elected in the next election, and decides to abuse the Patriot Act, how many lives can he destroy? Whats the chance it can be used to destroy democratic institutions and destroy the opposition, or at least massively weakening them? (Look at Zimbabwe for a good example of what something as simple as control over infrastructure and food distribution can do in a less fortunate country)

Lunatics are born every day - do you want a country with laws that protect you against them, or provide them with weapons, whether they are inside or outside government?

Laws like the patriot act may protect you against lunatics outside government, but they can also be a tremendous weapon for someone who wishes to weaken or stamp out democracy.

In effect, they're a huge victory for the 9/11 terrorists: The terrorists managed to take away more freedom from Americans in the form of new overreaching laws and regulations than they could ever have hoped for achieving in any other way.

Very well said, couldnt agree with you more.

[dig420]

Originally posted by theking


No government always tells the truth. I am 45 years old and I do not feel any loss of basic freedom. When my freedom or someone that I know has their rights abused as outlined in the Bill of Rights then I will become concerned...but as long as it is just bad guys being hurt...I am not concerned.

smart policy Sgt. Speedbump, wait until it happens to you PERSONALLY.

you don't know any Jews, do you?

[theking]

Originally posted by evilpurple


The Patriot Act "in theory" hurt anyone opposing whatever government is currently in power, as it makes it trivially easy for someone in power to abuse their position to weaken opposition. While many people think the current US government is full of complete idiots (few US presidents have ever been seen as so dangerous and so clueless by the international public except perhaps for Reagan), any abuse from the current government is likely to be relatively light.

But what if the law stays? Are you willing to take the risk of what might happen if some government 20, 30 or 40 years from now decides to abuse their powers? Not only that, but are you willing to take the risk that these power grabs from the government acts as a magnet for people that would like to use those powers for their own goals?

Restricting the powers of a government should NEVER be done based on "but if used right, their new powers will give great results" basis. It should be used on the basis "if we grant these powers now, and somebody decides to abuse them, how much damage can they possibly do?" basis.

Think of any of your favorite dictators, and ask yourself "How much damage could that person do with this law?". Read a good history book and see how many dictators had massive public support when they first grabbed power.

If someone is elected in the next election, and decides to abuse the Patriot Act, how many lives can he destroy? Whats the chance it can be used to destroy democratic institutions and destroy the opposition, or at least massively weakening them? (Look at Zimbabwe for a good example of what something as simple as control over infrastructure and food distribution can do in a less fortunate country)

Lunatics are born every day - do you want a country with laws that protect you against them, or provide them with weapons, whether they are inside or outside government?

Laws like the patriot act may protect you against lunatics outside government, but they can also be a tremendous weapon for someone who wishes to weaken or stamp out democracy.

In effect, they're a huge victory for the 9/11 terrorists: The terrorists managed to take away more freedom from Americans in the form of new overreaching laws and regulations than they could ever have hoped for achieving in any other way.

We have three branches of Government with built in checks and balances. Congress has the power to legislate...the people have the power to force the Congress to legislate. The Supreme Court does not answer either to Congress or the Executive branch and can put checks on Congress as well as the Executive branch. Laws are made...laws are modified...laws are repealed.

As with almost any law...specifically of the law enforcement types of laws...because humans are involved there will be abuse of the law...and when learned...the abuse will be delt with...either by Congress...modifying or repealing the law...or legislating new law...if not by the Congress then by the Court. I am not anymore concered about the Patriot Act being abused by law enforcement than I am of any other law being abused by law enforcement. There are humans involved and abuse of a law/laws by law enforcement happens virtually every day of the year...some where in the country.

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Our government has been hi jacked and it is to bad the veil has blinded so many people.

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has 'closed', the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. AND I AM CAESAR." --Julius Caesar

[theking]

Originally posted by AlienQ
Our government has been hi jacked and it is to bad the veil has blinded so many people.

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has 'closed', the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. AND I AM CAESAR." --Julius Caesar

I assume that you are speaking about the Executive branch. I assume this...unless you believe that all three branches of government have been "hi jacked". Even if it were true that the government has been "hi hacked" in one year or five the executive branch will change. Every two years there are changes in the House and every six years there are changes in the Senate. Our government is, and always has been, a government in flux and will continue to be so and this is as it should be.

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Ya assume to much and ya oughtah take a look a bit more closely at recent events. You can fool yourself in thinking that the machine is working and deny the fact that it is being systematically destroyed piece by piece in the name of "Peace".

People these days buy the branding of events more than acknowledging its contents.

Thats what I know.

[Xenophage]

santa cruz sucks stay away

[ChrisH]

I applaud there attempt to circumvent the bull shit Patriot Act. But it really doesn't matter too much. The Act has a sunset in Dec 05 and will need to be voted on again.

That said the FBI had sweeping reform in the early 70's when they were found abusing there power, and the same can/will happen if the Patriot Act is abused.

There are dozens of watch dog groups watching every use of the PA. The ACLU is probably froathing at the mouth just waiting for them to fuck it up. Which is most likely enevitable.

At the end of the line is the Supreme Court, the only thing that matters is there opinion.

[theking]

Originally posted by AlienQ
Ya assume to much and ya oughtah take a look a bit more closely at recent events. You can fool yourself in thinking that the machine is working and deny the fact that it is being systematically destroyed piece by piece in the name of "Peace".

People these days buy the branding of events more than acknowledging its contents.

Thats what I know.

Believe...not know.

[Gutterboy]

Santa Cruz is fucking great. Thems are the people who handed out medical marijuana at city hall after the fed's busted the clinics.

[theking]

Originally posted by ChrisH
I applaud there attempt to circumvent the bull shit Patriot Act. But it really doesn't matter too much. The Act has a sunset in Dec 05 and will need to be voted on again.

That said the FBI had sweeping reform in the early 70's when they were found abusing there power, and the same can/will happen if the Patriot Act is abused.

There are dozens of watch dog groups watching every use of the PA. The ACLU is probably froathing at the mouth just waiting for them to fuck it up. Which is most likely enevitable.

At the end of the line is the Supreme Court, the only thing that matters is there opinion.

You grasp is strong and is probably because you have a good mind and are of stable character...with the paranoid...the sky is falling and the end is near.

[Paul Markham]

Mishi
I also said that it will be challenged.

Another thing to consider is how the US elelcts it's politicians. Massive amounts of money are spent in getting the right people into goverment. These politicians are owned by their backers. Or will they stand against them and not get the financial backing in the next election?

Who has seen Bowling for Columbine and the conclusion that Michael Moore comes to? It was that the US is fed a diet of fear a few years ago it was the Communist, now it's terrorists. The politicians are beating the drum, why?

Be concerned but don't lose freedoms to protect yourselves.

[dig420]

Originally posted by theking


You grasp is strong and is probably because you have a good mind and are of stable character...with the paranoid...the sky is falling and the end is near.

dumbshit. The supreme court is one justice away from being stacked.

They gave the election to Bush, okayed secret trials, detention without representation and the Patriot Act.

Of course, they haven't fucked with you PERSONALLY, so everything must be cool.

Speedbump.

[theking]

Originally posted by dig420


dumbshit. The supreme court is one justice away from being stacked.

They gave the election to Bush, okayed secret trials, detention without representation and the Patriot Act.

Of course, they haven't fucked with you PERSONALLY, so everything must be cool.

Speedbump.

Ahh...Danny boy has appeared along with his infantile musings.

[VirtuMike]

The ACLU is probably already labelled a terrorist organization. Who knows? We have a president that wasn't elected, we have senators and representatives that don't give a shit what their voters say. And we have a supreme court appointed for life by the exact same people that they are supposed to hold in check.

The system has and continues to fail. My personal favorite indication was the NYC mayoral election that they put off because they didn't think it was a good time for an election. The people in power changed the rules about how they are voted in. This delay more than likely changed the outcome of the election. How different is this than a dictatorship? It's just like Parador.

Anyone who isn't concerned about the Patriot Act is no better or smarter than a hamster.

[theking]

Originally posted by VirtuMike
The ACLU is probably already labelled a terrorist organization. Who knows? We have a president that wasn't elected, we have senators and representatives that don't give a shit what their voters say. And we have a supreme court appointed for life by the exact same people that they are supposed to hold in check.

The system has and continues to fail. My personal favorite indication was the NYC mayoral election that they put off because they didn't think it was a good time for an election. The people in power changed the rules about how they are voted in. This delay more than likely changed the outcome of the election. How different is this than a dictatorship? It's just like Parador.

Anyone who isn't concerned about the Patriot Act is no better or smarter than a hamster.

You then can call me a hamster. FYI the President was elected...get over it. Even every recount that was done by the different organizations showed Bush won the vote in Florida. Unfortunately this President may very well be elected again...just look at what Democrats are coming forward.

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Blah you think Bush was elected LOL!
Guess that ends my conversation here.

[ThunderBalls]

Originally posted by AlienQ
Blah you think Bush was elected LOL!
Guess that ends my conversation here.

Of course Bush was elected, by a panel of supreme court judges that were appointed by his father.