Is shaving the industry norm?

[hybrid]

Do you think shaving is becoming an accepted business practice?

I mean unpreventable, not approved.

I mean, is it something that everyone knows is fucked up, but everybody knows there's nothing to be done about it?

Why don't we, or why can't we regulate our own industry?

[TheJimmy]

shaving is such an ugly word...

let's agree to call it creative hit counting ok?


<img src="http://britney-spears.blewme.com/stfunewbie.jpg">

[PersianKitty]

Originally posted by hybrid
Do you think shaving is becoming an accepted business practice?

I mean unpreventable, not approved.

I mean, is it something that everyone knows is fucked up, but everybody knows there's nothing to be done about it?

Why don't we, or why can't we regulate our own industry?

It's all a scam by the razor manufacturers... guys shave, women shave.. everyone shaves.. ::dumb redhead look::

[hybrid]

let's agree to call it creative hit counting ok?

perpetual

[TheJimmy]

Originally posted by PersianKitty


It's all a scam by the razor manufacturers... guys shave, women shave.. everyone shaves.. ::dumb redhead look::

mmmm, smooth is goooood



dammit PK...why you gotta instigate the visuals

[SteveLightspeed]

I've said it before, it would be fascinating to see which sponsors would submit to a thorough financial and procedural audit to have their program certified "shave-free" -- it should be just like buying a mutual fund, there should be full-disclosure requirements so that the affiliate can make an informed decision if the risk is worth the reward.

I also think though that even if there was an audit and certification process in place, a lot of you would still accuse sponsors of paying off the auditors to keep their report clean.

Opinions?


Steve Lightspeed
"Lightspeed, the other white meat."

[SpaceAce]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
I also think though that even if there was an audit and certification process in place, a lot of you would still accuse sponsors of paying off the auditors to keep their report clean.

... and would probably be correct. Let's face it, the auditors work for the companies who hire them, not for the consumer or, in this case, webmaster.

I think such an audit policy is an excellent idea, but there would have to be some way to safeguard the auditors' objectivity.

SpaceAce

[Stashi]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
I've said it before, it would be fascinating to see which sponsors would submit to a thorough financial and procedural audit to have their program certified "shave-free" -- it should be just like buying a mutual fund, there should be full-disclosure requirements so that the affiliate can make an informed decision if the risk is worth the reward.

I also think though that even if there was an audit and certification process in place, a lot of you would still accuse sponsors of paying off the auditors to keep their report clean.

Opinions?


Steve Lightspeed
"Lightspeed, the other white meat."

Steve,

Great idea, but we all know it will never happen. Half the people shaving are some of the larger names in the industry, and wont allow your idea to work.
Awsome idea though.


Side note, what part of AZ you from? I frequent Surprise, AZ quite often.

[TheJimmy]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
I've said it before, it would be fascinating to see which sponsors would submit to a thorough financial and procedural audit to have their program certified "shave-free" -- it should be just like buying a mutual fund, there should be full-disclosure requirements so that the affiliate can make an informed decision if the risk is worth the reward.

I also think though that even if there was an audit and certification process in place, a lot of you would still accuse sponsors of paying off the auditors to keep their report clean.

Opinions?


Steve Lightspeed
"Lightspeed, the other white meat."

That would be interesting RocH....

but I think the bottom line is what everyone is chasing...

I reallly don't care if a sponsor has some creative hit / sales tracking if they are sending me the biggest checks

at the end of the day there usually ends up being simple math...some webmasters like to see 50-75 buck signups...some like the more realistifc recurring route....

some just do this for the free jackoff material...

[Stashi]

hmmmm

unless audit records AND server stats AND sponsor stats were made public. Anyone with half a brain can tell if the audit was being fudged. (i think)

[IntenseCash]

I know many companies have to shave...But us at IntenseCash manage our accounts so we dont have to. Why the hell would you want to screw your webmasters? We feel the more productivity they see... the more traffic they will want to send.

We never shave and we are going to hold true to that!

[stocktrader23]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
I've said it before, it would be fascinating to see which sponsors would submit to a thorough financial and procedural audit to have their program certified "shave-free" -- it should be just like buying a mutual fund, there should be full-disclosure requirements so that the affiliate can make an informed decision if the risk is worth the reward.

I also think though that even if there was an audit and certification process in place, a lot of you would still accuse sponsors of paying off the auditors to keep their report clean.

Opinions?


Steve Lightspeed
"Lightspeed, the other white meat."

I agree. I'm positive their are people accused of shaving all the time that never have. As long as there is someone doing affiliate programs you will hear the accusation.

[Tipsy]

Didn't lens offer to open up adult.coms system to be checked a short while back? Nobody ever did take him up on that.

[PersianKitty]

Originally posted by IntenseCash
I know many companies have to shave...But us at IntenseCash manage our accounts so we dont have to. Why the hell would you want to screw your webmasters? We feel the more productivity they see... the more traffic they will want to send.

We never shave and we are going to hold true to that!

Why do your sites say "3 day trial offer" but there is not a trial option on the join page, only a 1 month option?

[TheJimmy]

Originally posted by stocktrader23


I agree. I'm positive their are people accused of shaving all the time that never have. As long as there is someone doing affiliate programs you will hear the accusation.

Can I get an AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!



very true statement/observation....

[hybrid]

I reallly don't care if a sponsor has some creative hit / sales tracking if they are sending me the biggest checks

This is the kind of mentality that encourages companies to do it.

Why let white collar crime leak into a business that has such a low barrier of entry?

This logic disturbs me.

[TheJimmy]

Originally posted by hybrid
This is the kind of mentality that encourages companies to do it.

Why let white collar crime leak into a business that has such a low barrier of entry?

This logic disturbs me.

logic?

fuck that, I base my feelins on raw #s...

I send X hits to Y sponsor they send me W in dollars...

I send A hits to B sponsor they send me C in dollars...

W is more than C ... I perfer to send more of my hits and attention to W....



not rocket science...just math...



do people and sponsors have creative hit counting, creative sales tracking....on purpose or not? you bet your sweet ass they do...how you handle your business in respect to that data is what makes you 'with it' or NOT...

;)

[hybrid]

do people and sponsors have creative hit counting, creative sales tracking....on purpose or not? you bet your sweet ass they do...how you handle your business in respect to that data is what makes you 'with it' or NOT...

No matter which lens you look at it through, ripping off certain people to acccommodate others is never justifiable.

[IntenseCash]

Originally posted by PersianKitty


Why do your sites say "3 day trial offer" but there is not a trial option on the join page, only a 1 month option?

Our old program used to have trials but we just launched our new program, so we currently don?t. We also decided to pay $40 per signup instead of $40 per active. We plan on adding trials again after we fully get our new program into place. You are still seeing those trial signups because not all webmasters have switched to the new program. We did not see any decrease in sales but we would still like to use them again; Lastly, we expect the new program to increase sales for webmasters by 20% if not more.

[TheJimmy]

Originally posted by hybrid
No matter which lens you look at it through, ripping off certain people to acccommodate others is never justifiable.

I agree with you 100%

however, I also am a pragmatist and understand that we do not live in a perfect society or within business that has the absolutely highest of standards in regards to the people running it...

which can also be assumed amongst many non-adult industries as well....



I drink coffee....

I hope others do too!

[hybrid]

From another forum, something to think about:

Originally posted by StuartD
Whom would you have regulate it?

Which bigger companies would you pick?
Would you take a concesus to have everyone pick names of most respected people and then pick the most common ones? If you didn't know them, would you still be happy with those choices?
Could those people be influenced by the bigger companies?
Would those people have the power and capabilities to monitor and police the bigger companies, or the smaller ones even?

I could keep going all night with these questions.

Originally posted by hybrid
You could have some sort of certification alloted to companies that comply with certain articles of public information, I suppose.

As far as the capability to police, it would be more of a community service, financially supported by those who believe in it. Thus the moral majority would entrust the "watchdog" to ensure that companies were'nt acting unethically.

Am I making any sense?

And yes, please, keep going. This is very interesting. If I was a mover and shaker in this biz, I'd definately be thinking hard about certain plans and actions that could be implemented to have such a thing come about.

[hybrid]

however, I also am a pragmatist and understand that we do not live in a perfect society or within business that has the absolutely highest of standards in regards to the people running it...

which can also be assumed amongst many non-adult industries as well....

You do have a point, from a pragmatistic point of view, yes.

Maybe I just have too much faith in people.

[kenny]

Shaving pratice is fraud by definition.


A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.
A piece of trickery; a trick.

One that defrauds; a cheat.
One who assumes a false pose; an impostor

fraud

\Fraud\ (fr[add]d), n. [F. fraude, L. fraus, fraudis; prob. akin to Skr. dh[=u]rv to injure, dhv[.r] to cause to fall, and E. dull.] 1. Deception deliberately practiced with a view to gaining an unlawful or unfair advantage; artifice by which the right or interest of another is injured; injurious stratagem; deceit; trick.

If success a lover's toil attends, Few ask, if fraud or force attained his ends. --Pope.

2. (Law) An intentional perversion of truth for the purpose of obtaining some valuable thing or promise from another.


It is going to be some fucked up thing when some huge company gets sued and guidelines fall into place making harder by law to conduct buisness on the internet. Someone always ruins it for everyone else.

[Darren]

its YOUR fault that webmaster programs shave, You want the BIGGEST PAYOUTS and go to the programs that give this, this means they HAVE to shave to make ends meet but its better to do it this way than to have a webmaster program that doesn't have any affiliates.

There are many different forms of shaving traffic.

I have experienced this with my penis enlargement pill site, we offer a low payout of 40% but people are attracted by numbers. Even though this 40% is on higher priced products, we convert a lot better at an higher leval order (4-5 bottles), we pay you on upsales & exits - many webmasters still just look at the number and go for say a 60% program which SHAVES in many ways, they offer methods of payment such as phone and paypal and mail which isnt tracked etc....

Webmasters are attracted by the NUMBER many do NOT even THINK about the BOTTOM line end of month profit that is why you get things like $75 payout days etc...


For the record MensNiche would be up for any type of audit by an independent website, could be a good ideaf for an extra section of a well respected resource site.

[StuartD]

Originally posted by Darren
its YOUR fault that webmaster programs shave, You want the BIGGEST PAYOUTS and go to the programs that give this, this means they HAVE to shave to make ends meet but its better to do it this way than to have a webmaster program that doesn't have any affiliates.

I really want a Big Mac and fries for $2 too, but McD's isn't skimming money off other customers without delivering their food to make ends meet.

If you can't make ends meet, then you don't go offering people more... that's all there is to it. And if you can't make ends meet, then you shouldn't be running a business.

It's not the webmasters fault if some business owner decides to offer 120% of their profits in affiliate and referral payouts and such. It's their own stupidity.

[kenny]

Originally posted by Darren
its YOUR fault that webmaster programs shave, You want the BIGGEST PAYOUTS and go to the programs that give this, this means they HAVE to shave to make ends meet but its better to do it this way than to have a webmaster program that doesn't have any affiliates.

There are many different forms of shaving traffic.

I have experienced this with my penis enlargement pill site, we offer a low payout of 40% but people are attracted by numbers. Even though this 40% is on higher priced products, we convert a lot better at an higher leval order (4-5 bottles), we pay you on upsales & exits - many webmasters still just look at the number and go for say a 60% program which SHAVES in many ways, they offer methods of payment such as phone and paypal and mail which isnt tracked etc....

Webmasters are attracted by the NUMBER many do NOT even THINK about the BOTTOM line end of month profit that is why you get things like $75 payout days etc...


For the record MensNiche would be up for any type of audit by an independent website, could be a good ideaf for an extra section of a well respected resource site.

What I consider shaving is when webmaster stats are altered to deceive. As long as the stats are true a program can use all the fancy marketing strategics they want.

[Darren]

Originally posted by MaskedMan


I really want a Big Mac and fries for $2 too, but McD's isn't skimming money off other customers without delivering their food to make ends meet.

If you can't make ends meet, then you don't go offering people more... that's all there is to it. And if you can't make ends meet, then you shouldn't be running a business.

It's not the webmasters fault if some business owner decides to offer 120% of their profits in affiliate and referral payouts and such. It's their own stupidity.

yes i agree but it isnt what is happening. To compete people are offering X amount per a signup and shaving. If they offered less than X amount then they wouldn't get any affiliates....

So option they have is

Dont shave & no affiliates

or

Shave & affiliates

and this is simply because affiliates look at the QUICK BUCK they will make and don't take other factors into consideration, like can the program really afford to pay me this without shaving ?

[TheJimmy]

Originally posted by hybrid
You do have a point, from a pragmatistic point of view, yes.

Maybe I just have too much faith in people.

have faith in yourself and that which you can hold to scientific proof...


the rest that you feel the need to hold in faith reserve for areas outside of business....


;)

[StuartD]

Oh, and for the record... I'm not even affiliated with any sponsor program, much less running one.. but I can see the bigger picture for a lot of the bigger ones.

Don't take this as me defending them though. This doesn't mean that they are or aren't shaving.

Basically... yes, they offer more of a payout than what is being paid to them when someone joins. BUT.. they are banking on the rebills, and the shuffling of that individual that they can do to various other sites that they have through cross sales.

A site like LightSpeed's for example, can have a signup to their Sorority site, and then shuffle off a large portion of their members to Tawnee's site since she's on both, and they can use banners, popups... what ever... you get the idea.

Plus then, there's merchandising that the sites can do, and special deals and this and that.... it all happens after they have the sale in the door.

So you're little 2.95 trial could become a $29.99 or $39.99 monthly rebill, which leads to a signup on another site or two, plus a sale of some wet panties or a t-shirt or something... plus then telling a buddy or fellow jerk mate (eww, that's gross).

So that $40 or $45 or what ever they just paid you for a $2.95 trial has just paid off in spades... a few joins to a few sites, merchandising... 3 or more rebills likely....

not all their sales will do this. probably not all that many really. But so long as enough do continue on and spend lots of money, then it can balance itself out.

But it takes a bigger company (lots of sites, lots to sell) and some good investment planning and marketting strategies to pull it off. But yes.... you can pay out over 100% and still make a profit... without shaving.

[scooby doo as scooby does]

I've seen a couple of posts on here previously about programmers who wrote affiliate/per click etc. scripts and the like. Both the ones I've seen mentioned their hirer requested a 'shaving option'.

Personally, so long as they make good money, who cares. But I restrict myself to affiliates who use third party stats such as globill etc. I wouldn't touch a self stat serving adult company in a million years. Wot you think I am, stupid ????

[kenny]

Originally posted by Darren


yes i agree but it isnt what is happening. To compete people are offering X amount per a signup and shaving. If they offered less than X amount then they wouldn't get any affiliates....

So option they have is

Dont shave & no affiliates

or

Shave & affiliates

and this is simply because affiliates look at the QUICK BUCK they will make and don't take other factors into consideration, like can the program really afford to pay me this without shaving ?

Most of us know how much traffic we are capable of sending and how much we are used to getting paid for it. That doesnt give a excuse to shave webmasters that don't. As I mentioned before the bottom line is if webmaster stats are altered and designed to deceive, then that falls under definition of fraud. There is no candy coating, no way around it. As long as the stats hold true a buisness can use all the creative marketing strategics they want.

[StuartD]

Originally posted by scooby doo as scooby does
I restrict myself to affiliates who use third party stats such as globill etc. I wouldn't touch a self stat serving adult company in a million years. Wot you think I am, stupid ????

Actually...

what makes you think that 3rd party processors don't/won't shave before the sponsor ever gets a chance to?

And even then... how does using a 3rd party processor prevent them from shaving? Yes... there are ways to do it.

[kenny]

Altered stats that are designed to give a webmaster a false understanding on how they are getting paid is fraud.
I am sure, in event that soild proof was brought foward to a court of law during a case where a webmaster being shaved was given false statements of his/her earnings, the court would agree that it is fraud

[Darren]

Originally posted by kenny



Most of us know how much traffic we are capable of sending and how much we are used to getting paid for it. That doesnt give a excuse to shave webmasters that don't. As I mentioned before the bottom line is if webmaster stats are altered and designed to deceive, then that falls under definition of fraud. There is no candy coating, no way around it. As long as the stats hold true a buisness can use all the creative marketing strategics they want.

kenny i wasnt excusing the actions but I am saying that is what happens.

I think shaving is LESS of a problem than many people think.... if you send sales to a site the person might have cookies off or cookie expired when they signup... for very 10 signups u send to a sponsor i would think they get an extra 1-2 from your traffic because things are NOT recorded 100%

[ldinternet]

Does anyone remember Audited Sponsor?

$35/signup... they disappeared pretty damn fast.

[stocktrader23]

Originally posted by Darren
its YOUR fault that webmaster programs shave, You want the BIGGEST PAYOUTS and go to the programs that give this, this means they HAVE to shave to make ends meet but its better to do it this way than to have a webmaster program that doesn't have any affiliates.

There are many different forms of shaving traffic.

I have experienced this with my penis enlargement pill site, we offer a low payout of 40% but people are attracted by numbers. Even though this 40% is on higher priced products, we convert a lot better at an higher leval order (4-5 bottles), we pay you on upsales & exits - many webmasters still just look at the number and go for say a 60% program which SHAVES in many ways, they offer methods of payment such as phone and paypal and mail which isnt tracked etc....

Webmasters are attracted by the NUMBER many do NOT even THINK about the BOTTOM line end of month profit that is why you get things like $75 payout days etc...


For the record MensNiche would be up for any type of audit by an independent website, could be a good ideaf for an extra section of a well respected resource site.

I hope you are basing this on more info than your site converting better than your competitors. That could be due to a multitude of reasons aside from shaving. I could start a pills program and pay 75% without shaving and still make a great profit.

[Darren]

Originally posted by stocktrader23


I hope you are basing this on more info than your site converting better than your competitors. That could be due to a multitude of reasons aside from shaving. I could start a pills program and pay 75% without shaving and still make a great profit.

you probably could but affiliates would still make more with us... but you would get more affiliates becasue LIKE i said people are ATTRACTED to the large numbers and this is the reason affiliate owners shave to keep offering a large amount....

[stocktrader23]

Originally posted by Darren


you probably could but affiliates would still make more with us... but you would get more affiliates becasue LIKE i said people are ATTRACTED to the large numbers and this is the reason affiliate owners shave to keep offering a large amount....

Are you saying I couldn't make a program that would compete with you on ratios?

[Darren]

Originally posted by stocktrader23


Are you saying I couldn't make a program that would compete with you on ratios?

I am saying you wont be able to create a pill program, track via IP and cookie (lifetime cookie) , payout on mail / paypal / check and credit card signups (with cascading billing) , payout on exit pops, offer upsales to relevant sites in the member areas which makes the webmaster another $33 - $100 etc

and still pay 75% on the pills.

[Darren]

if u can hit me up ICQ 46335817

[Extreme John]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
I've said it before, it would be fascinating to see which sponsors would submit to a thorough financial and procedural audit to have their program certified "shave-free" -- it should be just like buying a mutual fund, there should be full-disclosure requirements so that the affiliate can make an informed decision if the risk is worth the reward.

I also think though that even if there was an audit and certification process in place, a lot of you would still accuse sponsors of paying off the auditors to keep their report clean.

Opinions?


Steve Lightspeed
"Lightspeed, the other white meat."

Steve,
I would agree to an audit at anytime, however I would have to agree with you, that regardless of the audit process there always has been and always will be the gun pointed at certain companies stating that they shave.

Some companies without a doubt have the "Get rich or die trying" mentality and would ofcourse get around the audit.

I think where a huge differance in program "Honesty" might be is held within some of the webmasters that know what it's like to be reamed by a sponsor, and get so pissed that they finally open their own paysite(s), and in doing so offer very "Honest, Shave Free" programs. I took a huge reaming from 2 large companies one summer, went from 1:300's to 1:9000's, when I called to bitch, they shot me a few checks here and there to keep me on the "Shut your mouth" side. Worked out kinda nice and gave me the loot I deserved and than used to open my program. Personally, I'm not into getting reamed, and won't do onto others that I didnt like done to myself. I would rather, "Get respect, or die trying" than I would rather put the rambone on someone. People have families, etc. I guess the big point is, not everyone shaves, some get accused of it anyway, other are VERY BLATANT in their actions and people know clearly who they are.

[EscortBiz]

Not all but lots shave

[fantasyman]

CECash has always made the statement that their code is available for anyone to audit, this still holds true.

It's difficult to compete with some of the lofty payouts other programs offer.

We have made this statement before and will make it again...

If you put other program payouts on an excel spreadsheet you find it is absolutely mathematically impossible for those companies to make money and continue, unless they shave.

'nuff said!

[cash69]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
I've said it before, it would be fascinating to see which sponsors would submit to a thorough financial and procedural audit to have their program certified "shave-free" -- it should be just like buying a mutual fund, there should be full-disclosure requirements so that the affiliate can make an informed decision if the risk is worth the reward.

I also think though that even if there was an audit and certification process in place, a lot of you would still accuse sponsors of paying off the auditors to keep their report clean.

Opinions?


Steve Lightspeed
"Lightspeed, the other white meat."

<=- shave free ... think people would rather have lower payouts and not get shaved then higher payouts and be shaved... it all evens out to be the same.. 20 - 25$ per free trial sign up

[cash69]

NEVER go by the ratio inside of the stats area.. put up your own counter.. many of the sponsors i have used only showed 4,000 clicks inside of the stats area.. when i really got over 10,000.. I guess if you shave sign ups.. you gotta shave clicks to.. makes it look like a better ratio .. when it's not

[stocktrader23]

Originally posted by Darren


I am saying you wont be able to create a pill program, track via IP and cookie (lifetime cookie) , payout on mail / paypal / check and credit card signups (with cascading billing) , payout on exit pops, offer upsales to relevant sites in the member areas which makes the webmaster another $33 - $100 etc

and still pay 75% on the pills.

I bet to differ.

[EscortBiz]

Originally posted by cash69
NEVER go by the ratio inside of the stats area.. put up your own counter.. many of the sponsors i have used only showed 4,000 clicks inside of the stats area.. when i really got over 10,000.. I guess if you shave sign ups.. you gotta shave clicks to.. makes it look like a better ratio .. when it's not

I second that

[traffic addict]

Originally posted by cash69
NEVER go by the ratio inside of the stats area.. put up your own counter.. many of the sponsors i have used only showed 4,000 clicks inside of the stats area.. when i really got over 10,000.. I guess if you shave sign ups.. you gotta shave clicks to.. makes it look like a better ratio .. when it's not

It doesn't matter how many clicks you get, the only thing that matter is how many $$$$ are you getting for the traffic that you are sending.

If one program is showing 10k clicks and send you $1000, and a nother program is showing you for the same traffic 200 clicks and wire you $900, then you better keep on with the $1000!

[gruffy]

Originally posted by scooby doo as scooby does
Personally, so long as they make good money, who cares. But I restrict myself to affiliates who use third party stats such as globill etc. I wouldn't touch a self stat serving adult company in a million years. Wot you think I am, stupid ????

Yes, restrict yourself to CCBill programs and you will get good conversions, tracking and rebills. Not to mention everything merged together on one cheque (swank!)

GloBill programs always suck when compared to similar sites with similar tours / content.

But as far as I know, they can still change the cookie lengths or even disable it and shave you that way.

Not to mention a fair amount use multiple processors on the join pages too.

Lets not forget the exit consoles, popups, ads, or even in some cases, ads on the bloody join pages for other sites. All linking to the same company but a different webmaster id of course.


Anything paying out over 50/50 is suspect.

[cash69]

Originally posted by traffic addict


It doesn't matter how many clicks you get, the only thing that matter is how many $$$$ are you getting for the traffic that you are sending.

If one program is showing 10k clicks and send you $1000, and a nother program is showing you for the same traffic 200 clicks and wire you $900, then you better keep on with the $1000!

didn't say it did.. but most people go by what their conversion ratio is inside of the stats area.. they will go with sponsor A which is 1:100 ratio instead of sponsor B which is 1:200 ratio becuase they think they are converting better... if doing this didn't play mind games on people to make them think they are converting better.. sponsors wouldn't do it