Agent Orange use 'understated'

[theking]

The United States military used much more Agent Orange and other defoliant spray during the Vietnam war than previously thought, scientists say.

Many Vietnamese have been affected by Agent Orange
A new study of US military records also found that the amount of cancer-causing dioxin chemicals in the spray has been seriously underestimated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2954729.stm

[Mr.Fiction]

The problems are not just for the people in Vietnam, either. How many U.S. soldiers were sickened by these chemicals? Sadly, many of them were probably not taken care of by the very government system that was supposed to help them once they got home from the war.

This is one of the problems that Gulf War veterans may face as well. They are the heroes of the moment, but will people care in 10 or 20 years when the retired soldiers need medical or psychological help? At the same time the White House talks about how great soldiers are, they also push tax cuts which endanger veteran's benefits. It's a sad situation all around.

[boneprone]

Special Agent Orange of the BP Family is on Vacation.

[jas1552]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84472,00.html

[Mr.Fiction]

Originally posted by jas1552
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84472,00.html

That article proves that Fox will always side with the White House over the U.S. troops.

[aztecvision]

Saddam used chemical wepons on his own people. blah blah blah blah blah...

[mule]

Originally posted by theking
The United States military used much more Agent Orange and other defoliant spray during the Vietnam war than previously thought, scientists say.

Many Vietnamese have been affected by Agent Orange
A new study of US military records also found that the amount of cancer-causing dioxin chemicals in the spray has been seriously underestimated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2954729.stm

Hey, stop posting this anti-americam crap!

[wonton]

Originally posted by theking
The United States military used much more Agent Orange and other defoliant spray during the Vietnam war than previously thought, scientists say.

Many Vietnamese have been affected by Agent Orange
A new study of US military records also found that the amount of cancer-causing dioxin chemicals in the spray has been seriously underestimated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2954729.stm

Hey theking, what gives? You are always the first one to shoot down any facts that make the American military establishment look bad. Do I sense an awakening?!

It's not too late to save America from the evil New World Order!!

[jreaka]

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction


This is one of the problems that Gulf War veterans may face as well. They are the heroes of the moment, but will people care in 10 or 20 years when the retired soldiers need medical or psychological help? At the same time the White House talks about how great soldiers are, they also push tax cuts which endanger veteran's benefits. It's a sad situation all around.

It is sad, but true

[wonton]

While we're at it, read this excellent interview with former US Attorney General, Ramsey Clark. He was a right-winger who finally woke up to America's war crimes. He is not anti-American. He wants to restore true American values to the White House.

What America has done in the past few decades may surprise a lot of people:


Neighborhood Bully

[theking]

Originally posted by wonton


Hey theking, what gives? You are always the first one to shoot down any facts that make the American military establishment look bad. Do I sense an awakening?!

It's not too late to save America from the evil New World Order!!

Wrong. I shoot down misinformation not facts. It took years for the VA to admit that the "Agent Orange Syndrome" existed among Vets of Vietnam. Now Vets that were exposed to Agent Orange are treated and compensated. The reason for my post is to alert those Vets on this board that served in Vietnam that the Dioxin levels may be higher than was originally thought.

By the way I do not know if Scientists were aware that Dioxin was a cancer causing agent at the time that the defoliant was being used.

[wonton]

Originally posted by wonton
While we're at it, read this excellent interview with former US Attorney General, Ramsey Clark. He was a right-winger who finally woke up to America's war crimes. He is not anti-American. He wants to restore true American values to the White House.

What America has done in the past few decades may surprise a lot of people:


Neighborhood Bully

If you don't want to read the whole article, here is a telling quote. Again, this is coming from the former Attorney General, not just any joe blow:


"Our overriding purpose, from the beginning right through to the present day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if possible; and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of our foreign policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump through hoops; the purpose is to facilitate our exploitation of resources. And insofar as any people or states get in the way of our domination, they must be eliminated - or, at the very least, shown the error of their ways.

I'm not talking about just military domination. U.S. trade policies are driven by the exploitation of poor people the world over. Vietnam is a good example of both the military and the economic inhumanity. We have punished its government and people mercilessly, just because they want freedom. The Vietnamese people had to fight for thirty years to achieve freedom - first against the French, and then against the United States. I used to be criticized for saying that the Vietnamese suffered 2 million casualties, but I've noticed that people now say 3 million without much criticism. Yet that war was nothing compared to the effects of twenty years of sanctions, from 1975 to 1995, which brought the Vietnamese people - a people who had proven to be invincible when threatened by physical force on their own land - down to such dire poverty that they were taking to open boats in stormy seas, and drowning, to get to a refugee camp in Hong Kong, a place no one in his or her right mind would want to be. They went simply because they saw no future in their own country.

I went to North Vietnam in the summer of 1971, when the U.S. was trying to destroy civilian dikes through bombing. Our government figured that if it could destroy Vietnam's capacity for irrigation, it could starve the people into submission...."

[kenny]

The US did war crimes on Hiroshima & Nakasaki Japan during WWII

[aztecvision]

Originally posted by wonton


If you don't want to read the whole article, here is a telling quote. Again, this is coming from the former Attorney General, not just any joe blow:


"Our overriding purpose, from the beginning right through to the present day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if possible; and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of our foreign policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump through hoops; the purpose is to facilitate our exploitation of resources. And insofar as any people or states get in the way of our domination, they must be eliminated - or, at the very least, shown the error of their ways.

I'm not talking about just military domination. U.S. trade policies are driven by the exploitation of poor people the world over. Vietnam is a good example of both the military and the economic inhumanity. We have punished its government and people mercilessly, just because they want freedom. The Vietnamese people had to fight for thirty years to achieve freedom - first against the French, and then against the United States. I used to be criticized for saying that the Vietnamese suffered 2 million casualties, but I've noticed that people now say 3 million without much criticism. Yet that war was nothing compared to the effects of twenty years of sanctions, from 1975 to 1995, which brought the Vietnamese people - a people who had proven to be invincible when threatened by physical force on their own land - down to such dire poverty that they were taking to open boats in stormy seas, and drowning, to get to a refugee camp in Hong Kong, a place no one in his or her right mind would want to be. They went simply because they saw no future in their own country.

I went to North Vietnam in the summer of 1971, when the U.S. was trying to destroy civilian dikes through bombing. Our government figured that if it could destroy Vietnam's capacity for irrigation, it could starve the people into submission...."

But that's not what cnn said..

[kenny]

I think Canada should liberate the US with military force

[rooster]

extreme leftism is scary. hold me

[Webby]

If we are assuming for one moment that Agent Orange is the only problem - it aint.

The biggest cocktail of all chemical and biological material is held by the US - add to that more "weapons of mass distruction" than any country in the world.

DUH?? I got the feeling a deadly cloud of hypocracy is blowing all over when the US can even start looking at other countries and brandishing some righteous "lists of the wicked" (there's demons and dragons all around us!*lol*).

Tis well overdue for a regime change of the current admin in the US and some attention given to US domestic issues instead of playing stupid games with "wars" and "evil ones" in an attempt to avoid issues.

[rooster]

without these wars, we wouldnt be a super power. Someone else would take that power. Id sure rather us have that power, than some commies or something.

[kenny]

Originally posted by Webby
If we are assuming for one moment that Agent Orange is the only problem - it aint.

The biggest cocktail of all chemical and biological material is held by the US - add to that more "weapons of mass distruction" than any country in the world.

DUH?? I got the feeling a deadly cloud of hypocracy is blowing all over when the US can even start looking at other countries and brandishing some righteous "lists of the wicked" (there's demons and dragons all around us!*lol*).

Tis well overdue for a regime change of the current admin in the US and some attention given to US domestic issues instead of playing stupid games with "wars" and "evil ones" in an attempt to avoid issues.

The US doesn't need stock piles of chemical and biological weapons. They got stock piles of nuclear weapons. Russia has the most weapons of mass destruction. The USA has the most advance technology to utilize them

[wonton]

Originally posted by rooster
extreme leftism is scary. hold me

Right. Facts are truely scary when they don't agree with your non-thinking, flag-waving, "let's kill those gooks and towel-heads" greed-driven stupidity. Yes. Anything else must be "leftism".

The left-right dichotomy is an illusion sold by the media and political establishment to the ignorant masses to distract them from the truth.

Since you don't want to read, why don't you just watch movies. Hell, even a movie like "Gladiator" speaks to some of this. There was a good scene in that movie where the Bush-like emperor trivializes the populace and tells his senators that all we need to do is distract them with gladitorial games. Rings true to this day...

[Fletch XXX]

i need more books on weapons.

[kenny]

Originally posted by rooster
without these wars, we wouldnt be a super power. Someone else would take that power. Id sure rather us have that power, than some commies or something.

Your right it has always been that way. People seem to think everyone can hold hands and dance under rainbows while playing with butterflys singing give peace a chance. That isn't human nature. Never was.

[rooster]

Im not saying this country is without its hypocracies, but we have been far more gentle with the power than others would be. Would you want a communist country to be the lone superpower instead?


The extreme left just likes to second guess and get on their high horse.

[Webby]

rooster:

Ya think the US feels so insecure they need to "prove something" and embark on all these "US adventures" into other countries and kill many thousands - including their own people? I can't think of a more suitable word - along the lines of "sick" to use ...

I'd reckon most world leaders are well aware of the US - the respect level is -5 and the admin the worst joke in modern times.

[theking]

Originally posted by wonton
While we're at it, read this excellent interview with former US Attorney General, Ramsey Clark. He was a right-winger who finally woke up to America's war crimes. He is not anti-American. He wants to restore true American values to the White House.

What America has done in the past few decades may surprise a lot of people:


Neighborhood Bully

Ramsey Clark is one man with an opinion. An idividual can become a devotee and agree with his thinking or not.

[aztecvision]

Originally posted by rooster
Im not saying this country is without its hypocracies, but we have been far more gentle with the power than others would be.

We're just better at hiding it and distracting the public...

[kenny]

Originally posted by Fletch XXX
i need more books on weapons.

No need for books when you got the internet

[rooster]

The admin is an embarrasment because we didnt cave to weasels like France and Russia? Fuck them.

I would say the previous admin is the embarrasment. They refused to do anything for 8 years for fear of opinon polls.

[wonton]

Originally posted by theking


Ramsey Clark is one man with an opinion. An idividual can become a devotee and agree with his thinking or not.

Well, here are some more of his opinions from that same interview, which are backed by facts and, by any rational judgement, appear indisputable imho:


Clark: Sadly, I think most Americans don't have an opinion about our foreign policy. Worse than that, when they do think about it, it's in terms of the demonization of enemies and the exaltation of our capacity for violence.

When the Gulf War started in 1991, you could almost feel a reverence come over the country. We had a forty-two-day running commercial for militarism. Nearly everybody was glued to CNN, and whenever they saw a Tomahawk cruise missile taking off from a navy vessel somewhere in the Persian Gulf, they practically stood up and shouted, "Hooray for America!" But that missile was going to hit a market in Basra or someplace, destroy three hundred food stalls, and kill forty-two very poor people. And we considered that a good thing.

It's very difficult to debate military spending in this country today - which is unbelievable, because our military spending is absolutely, certifiably insane. Just to provide one example: We still have twenty-two commissioned Trident nuclear submarines, which are first-strike weapons. Any one of those submarines can launch twenty-four missiles simultaneously. Each of those missiles can contain as many as seventeen independently targeted, maneuverable nuclear warheads. And each of those warheads can travel seven thousand nautical miles and supposedly hit within three hundred feet of its predetermined target. If we fire them in opposite directions, we can span fourteen thousand nautical miles: halfway around the world at the equator. This means we can take out 408 centers of human population, hitting each with a nuclear warhead ten times as powerful as the bomb that incinerated Nagasaki.

Jensen: This is all from one submarine?

Clark: One submarine. And we have twenty-two of them. It's an unthinkable machine. Why would you have it? What kind of mind would conceive of such a machine? What justification could there be for its existence? What would be the meaning of daring to use it?

Yet the debate about military spending in this country never raises these questions. Think back to 1980, when President Carter and Governor Reagan were arguing about the military budget. At that time, you could see the end of the Cold War approaching; the risk of superpower conflict was waning rapidly. Carter came in with a 7 percent increase in the budget, when it should have been reduced. And Reagan, of course, topped him with a proposal for an 11 percent increase. Carter's response was that he could spend 7 percent more effectively than Reagan could spend 11 percent, so we'd be stronger on Carter's program. Nowhere in this debate did we - or do we now - hear anything about the morality or the sanity (even the fiscal sanity) of such huge military budgets.

Our foreign policy is based on the use of our military might as an enforcer, exactly as Teddy Roosevelt implied when he said that we should "speak softly and carry a big stick." What does that mean? It means: "Do what I say, or I'll smash your head in. I won't make a lot of noise about it; I'll just do it."

Jensen: How many times has the United States invaded Latin America in the last two hundred years?

Clark: It depends on who's doing the counting, but in the twentieth century alone, it was undoubtedly almost once per year. Off the top of my head, I could count probably seventy instances.

[Webby]

Sorry rooster.. I't ain't got anything to do with "left" or "right" or "commies" or all that shit. The acts of a country are what counts - not the words - and the acts over a number of years are a total abomination. This coming from what is supposed to be some "leading civilized nation" ... duh?

[MrPopup]

Originally posted by theking
The United States military used much more Agent Orange and other defoliant spray during the Vietnam war than previously thought, scientists say.

Many Vietnamese have been affected by Agent Orange
A new study of US military records also found that the amount of cancer-causing dioxin chemicals in the spray has been seriously underestimated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2954729.stm

i guess you're not 100% idiotic all the time.

Try this out...you'll like it.

http://www.moorewatch.com/

[theking]

Originally posted by Webby
If we are assuming for one moment that Agent Orange is the only problem - it aint.

The biggest cocktail of all chemical and biological material is held by the US - add to that more "weapons of mass distruction" than any country in the world.

DUH?? I got the feeling a deadly cloud of hypocracy is blowing all over when the US can even start looking at other countries and brandishing some righteous "lists of the wicked" (there's demons and dragons all around us!*lol*).

Tis well overdue for a regime change of the current admin in the US and some attention given to US domestic issues instead of playing stupid games with "wars" and "evil ones" in an attempt to avoid issues.

The USA is the most powerful country the world has ever known and the USA intends to remain number for the longest possible period of time. The USA does not wear a "White Hat". The USA is about the interests of the USA, just as all countries are about their own self interests. The difference being that most countries do not have to ability to advance their self interests, and resent the fact that the USA does. There is nothing new about the concept of self interests.

[kenny]

Russia is why the USA holds a massive stock pile. The cold war built a war machine that could destroy the world 10x. Russian nuclear weapons in cuba pointed at the US triggered massive national defense. The weapons dont vanish they still are held in the US stock piles.
The modern world economy doesnt have borders. The US accounts for 25% of the worlds economy, everything is of interest to the USA.

[theking]

Originally posted by MrPopup


i guess you're not 100% idiotic all the time.

Try this out...you'll like it.

http://www.moorewatch.com/

My only interest in Moore is as an entertainer and that is all he is. I have seen him in past interviews state that he considers himself to be an entertainer with a niche. He does not take himself seriously (at least he did not until fools began to take him seriously). Now he is exploiting the role that was fostered upon him and it will mean more bucks for him.

[kenny]

If the US didnt get involved in world affairs to presue self interest, the economy of the US would not be as massive as it is today. That would effect everybody in the United States. Without a dominate presence in the world the USA would fall apart economicly.

[mule]

Originally posted by kenny
If the US didnt get involved in world affairs to presue self interest, the economy of the US would not be as massive as it is today. That would effect everybody in the United States. Without a dominate presence in the world the USA would fall apart economicly.

Go learn some english, amybe you can contribute more

[kenny]

Originally posted by mule

Go learn some english, amybe you can contribute more

What are you trying to say? I have a slight buzz from my drinks if I am not making much sense to you. But I am making sense to myself

[basschick]

there are a lot of things i like about the u.s. although a lot of our constitutional rights are now being overruled, which makes me sad.

i have never understood WHY we need or want to be the most powerful. it would be cool if we had the best education system, or the least unemployment or homelessness. to help pay for the war, many schools stopped having art or music or drama. education and enrichment are a good thing - makes for happier people. in the meantime, any large person or country can beat people up - but it takes more to accomplish prosperity.

i have an older friend who was very hurt at 18 in the korean war. after all these years, he started having terrible recurring nightmares every night. he gets some kind of half-assed group therapy from the v.a. but seems to me that if a soldier serves his country and is damaged, he should be taken better care of than what i see done with people i know at the local v.a.

[kenny]

Originally posted by basschick
there are a lot of things i like about the u.s. although a lot of our constitutional rights are now being overruled, which makes me sad.

i have never understood WHY we need or want to be the most powerful. it would be cool if we had the best education system, or the least unemployment or homelessness. to help pay for the war, many schools stopped having art or music or drama. education and enrichment are a good thing - makes for happier people. in the meantime, any large person or country can beat people up - but it takes more to accomplish prosperity.

i have an older friend who was very hurt at 18 in the korean war. after all these years, he started having terrible recurring nightmares every night. he gets some kind of half-assed group therapy from the v.a. but seems to me that if a soldier serves his country and is damaged, he should be taken better care of than what i see done with people i know at the local v.a.

The United States accounts for 25% of the worlds economy it takes a major world presence to pull that. All those things you mentioned in your post require money and money comes from a good economy. The USA is big and needs alot of room for economic growth to keep everything balanced.

*If anyone here doesnt understand the point I am trying to make I apologize for your lack of ability to see the big picture. Money is what makes the world go round.

[Scootermuze]

Originally posted by wonton
He wants to restore true American values to the White House.

He'd have better luck tryin to put hairspray back in the can...

[Scootermuze]

Originally posted by theking

A new study of US military records also found that the amount of cancer-causing dioxin chemicals in the spray has been seriously underestimated.

New study?????

Why not just use the old facts?

That shit was used without regard to anything or anybody.. If you're in the area, get out or get fucked..

and don't bother calling me a conspiracy theorist... I saw how it was applied.. and I saw what it did..

New studies aren't needed.. just talk to the people that were there..

[wonton]

Originally posted by Scootermuze


He'd have better luck tryin to put hairspray back in the can...

True. But doing a little something is better than doing nothing at all.

[Webby]

theking:

The USA is the most powerful country the world has ever known and the USA intends to remain number for the longest possible period of time. The USA does not wear a "White Hat". The USA is about the interests of the USA, just as all countries are about their own self interests. The difference being that most countries do not have to ability to advance their self interests, and resent the fact that the USA does. There is nothing new about the concept of self interests.

There is a difference between "self interest" and "selfishness" while trying to cover this with some "gloss" of "aiding the world" and "we are gonna liberate you" while embarking on adventures of sheer unadulterated greed and other "private agendas" for power.

Countries do advance their interests all the time.. most are lead by more mature governments and some manage to actually sign treaties and honor them - they actually have some morality that is not dwarfed by greed and ulterior agendas.

There is much use of words like "peace" in the US admin, - this is just crass misuse of the word - actions prove otherwise. It is easy to act on an agenda when there is clearly zero understanding of the outcome - which, time will tell, but may actually be totally "anti" US interests.

The US is a very fickle and immature "democracy", at least on the part of the Admin. A policy on Monday changes to something else on Tuesday. There is a total zero when it comes to any form of diplomacy and some state of living in a Disneyland bubble on many issues. I suspect, we will be seeing a watershed response shortly from many other nations and people - hell, tis already started.

The US is indeed the major military power at this time, and.. still can be the major economic power - if it actually addresses the issue. To accompany this it could have a portion of morality as well and actually be able to be trusted by other nations. Sadly the US media portrayal of the world may work in the US, but that's another "Disney bubble" as far as the rest of the planet is concened - you would think you watching another movie.

[FATPad]

Originally posted by basschick
but seems to me that if a soldier serves his country and is damaged, he should be taken better care of than what i see done with people i know at the local v.a.

That is very true. It's really sad seeing what some of the older vets have to live like. Kinda pisses me off. We're handing out billions in welfare to countries, corporations and lazy ass individuals, but we can't manage to take care of the people who went and fought for us properly.

[MrPopup]

Originally posted by theking


My only interest in Moore is as an entertainer and that is all he is. I have seen him in past interviews state that he considers himself to be an entertainer with a niche. He does not take himself seriously (at least he did not until fools began to take him seriously). Now he is exploiting the role that was fostered upon him and it will mean more bucks for him.

so you cant entertain AND educate/disseminate?

art is inevitably exploitative.

Roger & Me was funny and enlightening. I find it odd that you would consider those qualities to be exclusive of intelligent debate.

[Webby]

He'd have better luck tryin to put hairspray back in the can...

Is it that easy???

Originally posted by wonton
He wants to restore true American values to the White House.

And what would these be?? This sounds like some homespun term like "homeland security" and Mommas apple pie.
Values start with the assumption of common sense and morality - and I never seen Bush or most of the Admin release any signs of either of these....

The Founding Fathers, Jefferson, Lincoln and the rest would be ashamed to see the US leadership reduced to "things" like GW... even more, to hear his hypocracy about "American values", which should be "US values" since the rest of American don't want to know of these values...

[kenny]

The fore fathers would kill someone for putting a tax on their tea, some fore fathers even had slaves.

[theking]

Originally posted by Webby
theking:


There is a difference between "self interest" and "selfishness" while trying to cover this with some "gloss" of "aiding the world" and "we are gonna liberate you" while embarking on adventures of sheer unadulterated greed and other "private agendas" for power.

Every government has its own form of propaganda for the masses. The more insiteful see propaganda for what it is.

Countries do advance their interests all the time.. most are lead by more mature governments and some manage to actually sign treaties and honor them - they actually have some morality that is not dwarfed by greed and ulterior agendas.

Their mature governments have not made them number one.

There is much use of words like "peace" in the US admin, - this is just crass misuse of the word - actions prove otherwise. It is easy to act on an agenda when there is clearly zero understanding of the outcome - which, time will tell, but may actually be totally "anti" US interests.

This administration will end and very possilby at the end of this term. Then you can bitch about the next administrations agenda (and I am satisfied you will) and replace "ignorant" Bush with "ignorant"...

The US is a very fickle and immature "democracy", at least on the part of the Admin. A policy on Monday changes to something else on Tuesday. There is a total zero when it comes to any form of diplomacy and some state of living in a Disneyland bubble on many issues. I suspect, we will be seeing a watershed response shortly from many other nations and people - hell, tis already started.

Refer to above responses.

The US is indeed the major military power at this time, and.. still can be the major economic power - if it actually addresses the issue. To accompany this it could have a portion of morality as well and actually be able to be trusted by other nations. Sadly the US media portrayal of the world may work in the US, but that's another "Disney bubble" as far as the rest of the planet is concened - you would think you watching another movie.

Our self serving interests are what have made us number one...so the USA must be doing something right. Unless one considers that being number one is not a good thing.

[Elephant_Gut]

Originally posted by theking


Our self serving interests are what have made us number one...so the USA must be doing something right. Unless one considers that being number one is not a good thing.

Nazi Germany was number 1 for about two years. Germany was the most technically advanced nation on earth and was a center of the arts, science and philosophy. By the time Hitler invaded France, Germany was, for that brief period in history, arguably the number 1 country in the world.

Being #1 is not all that it's cracked up to be if that stature is achieved through immoral means.

[BV]

We still use it here on the farms, you need a "restricted use" pesticide license to buy it because it sports the old scull & crossbones on it like all restricted peticides. "Gramaxone" is the name. Farmers us it all the time on the fields that grow the vegetables most of us eat. It smells bad, about 6 ounces of the stuff is enough for about 500 gallon mix depending on where your applying it and what adjuvants you are mixing with it.

Cheers,
BV