RedFred

How close is President Donald Trump to following the path blazed by last century's tyrants? Could American democracy be replaced with totalitarian rule? There's enough resemblance that Yale historian Timothy Snyder, who studies fascist and communist regime change and totalitarian rule, has written a book warning about the threat and offering lessons for resistance and survival. The author of On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century talked to AlterNet's Steven Rosenfeld.

Steven Rosenfeld: Three weeks ago, you said that the country has perhaps a year 'to defend American democracy.' You said what happens in the next few weeks is crucial. Are you more concerned than ever that our political culture and institutions are evolving toward fascism, resembling key aspects of the early 20th-century European regimes you?ve studied?

Timothy Snyder: Let me answer you in three parts. The first thing is that the 20 lessons that I wrote, I wrote on November 15th. The book, On Tyranny, was done by Christmas. Which means if people read it now, and people are reading it, and it's describing the world they are in, that means I?ve successfully made predictions based on history. We?re going to talk about what is going to come, but I want to point out that timeline?it was basically completely blind. But the book does describe what is going on now.

The year figure is there because we have to recognize that things move fast. Nazi Germany took about a year. Hungary took about two and a half years. Poland got rid of the top-level judiciary within a year. It?s a rough historical guess, but the point is because there is an outside limit, you therefore have to act now. You have to get started early. It?s just very practical advice. It?s the meta-advice of the past: That things slip out of reach for you, psychologically very quickly, and then legally almost as quickly. It?s hard for people to act when they feel other people won?t act. It?s hard for people to act when they feel like they have to break the law to do so. So it is important to get out in front before people face those psychological and legal barriers.

Am I more worried now? I realize that was your question. No, I?m exactly as worried as I was before, in November. I think that the people who inhabit the White House inhabit a different ideological world in which they would like for the United States not to be the constitutional system that it now is. I was concerned about that in November. I?m concerned about it now. Nothing that has happened since has changed the way I see things.

SR: Let?s talk about how this evolution takes place. You?ve written about how 'post-truth is pre-fascism.' You talk about leaders ignoring facts, law and history. How far along this progression are we? I?m wondering where you might see things going next.

TS: That?s tough because what history does is give you a whole bunch of cases where democratic republics become authoritarian regimes; sometimes fascist regimes, sometimes communist regimes. It doesn?t give you one storyline: A, B, C, D. It gives you a bunch of clusters of A, and a bunch of clusters of C. But factuality is really important and more important than people realize, because it?s the substructure of regime change.

We think about democracy, and that?s the word that Americans love to use, democracy, and that?s how we characterize our system. But if democracy just means going to vote, it?s pretty meaningless. Russia has democracy in that sense. Most authoritarian regimes have democracy in that sense. Nazi Germany had democracy in that sense, even after the system had fundamentally changed.

Democracy only has substance if there?s the rule of law. That is, if people believe that the votes are going to be counted and they are counted. If they believe that there?s a judiciary out there that will make sense of things if there?s some challenge. If there isn?t rule of law, people will be afraid to vote the way they want to vote. They'll vote for their own safety as opposed to their convictions. So the thing we call democracy depends on the rule of law. And the things we call the rule of law depends upon trust. Law functions 99 percent of the time automatically. It functions because we think it?s out there. And that, in turn, depends on the sense of truth. So there?s a mechanism here. You can get right to heart of the matter if you can convince people that there is no truth. Which is why the stuff that we characterize as post-modern and might dismiss is actually really, really essential.

The second thing about 'post-truth is pre-fascism' is I?m trying to get people?s attention, because that is actually how fascism works. Fascism says, disregard the evidence of your senses, disregard observation, embolden deeds that can?t be proven, don?t have faith in god but have faith in leaders, take part in collective myth of an organic national unity, and so forth. Fascism was precisely about setting the whole Enlightenment aside and then selling what sort of myths emerged. Now those [national] myths are pretty unpredictable, and contingent on different nations and different leaders and so on, but to just set facts aside is actually the fastest catalyst. So that part concerns me a lot.

Where we?re going? The classic thing to watch out for is the shift from one governing strategy to another. In the U.S. system, the typical governing strategy is you more or less have to follow your constituents with legislation because of the election cycle. That?s one pulse of politics. The other pulse of politics is emergency. There?s some kind of terrorist attack and then the leader tries to suspend basic constitutional rights. And then we get on a different rhythm, where the rhythm is not one electoral cycle to the next but one emergency to the next. That?s how regime changes take place. It?s a classic way since the Reichstag fire [when the Nazis burned their nation?s capitol building and blamed communist arsonists].

So in terms of what might happen next, or what people could look out for, some kind of event that the government claims is a terrorist incident, would be something to be prepared for. That?s why it?s one of the lessons in the book.

SR: You have talked before about that kind of emergency justification?and even with Vladimir Putin in Russia. Is that what you think would happen here? Because with the exception of the judiciary, a lot of American institutions, like Congress, are not really resisting. They?re going along.

TS: They?re going along? but my own intuition would be the emergency situation arises because going along isn?t going to be enough. Paradoxically, Congress is going along and is going to pass a bunch of stuff, which is not actually very popular. Right? It?s not going to be so popular to have millions of people lose health insurance, which is what?s going to happen. The ironic things about the Republican Congress is now it has the ability to do everything it wants to do, but none of what it wants to do is that popular. Except with the few big lobbies, of course. The freedom the Republicans have is the freedom to impose their agenda on down.

The same thing goes with Mr. Trump. The things that he might do that some people would like, like building a wall or driving all the immigrants out, those things are going to be difficult or slow. In the case of the wall, I personally don?t believe it will ever happen. It?s going to be very slow. So my suspicion is that it is much easier to have a dramatic negative event, than have a dramatic positive event. That is one of the reasons I am concerned about the Reichstag fire scenario. The other reason is that we are being mentally prepared for it by all the talk about terrorism and by the Muslim ban. Very often when leaders repeat things over and over they are preparing you for when that meme actually emerges in reality.

SR: I want to change the topic slightly. You cite many examples from Germany in 1933, the year Hitler consolidated power. So what did ordinary Germans miss that?s relevant for ordinary Americans now? I know some of this is the blurring of facts. But when I have talked to Holocaust survivors, they often say, nobody ever thought things would be that bad, or nobody thought the Germans would go as far as they did.

TS: The German Jews then, and people now, don?t understand how quick their neighbors will change; don?t understand how quickly society can change. They don?t understand the fact that a life that?s been predictable for a long time, doesn?t mean that it will be predictable tomorrow. And people like to think that their experience is exceptional. German Jews might have thought, 'Well, there were pogroms [ethnic cleansing] in Russia, but surely nothing like that could happen here.' That?s what many German Jews thought. So one issue is people need to realize how quickly things can change.

The second thing that German Jews were not aware of, or Germans were not aware of, was how new media can quickly change conversations. In that way, it?s not exactly the same, but radio at that time often ended up being a channel for propaganda. There are parallels with the internet now, where there were hopes that it would be [primarily] enlightening. But in fact, it turns out that with presidential tweets, or with bots, or isolated habits of viewing, it isn?t necessarily enlightening. It?s the opposite. A lot of us were blindsided by the internet in much the same way that people could be blindsided by radio in the 1930s.


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JohnnyClips - BANNED FOR LIFE

lol so Trump is still Hitler, eh?

Where's the concentration camps? ROFL

RedFred

When your mother home schooled you did she not teach you germany was not the only fascist regime to ever inhabit the planet?

JohnnyClips - BANNED FOR LIFE

We get it you don't like Trump...but just because you don't like someone doesn't mean he's a fascist or Hitler

Bladewire

Great post and the urgency to fight fascism is reaching a tipping point and patriots will not yield !

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xKingx

So the right wants fascism.

The left wants communism.

Both fascism and communism are both the same to me. Both want to take freedom away.

I say kill both sides and stay in the center.

JohnnyClips - BANNED FOR LIFE

Exactly and Trump is that center

xKingx

Well Trump can come off as authoritarian sometimes. We didn't have much to choose from last election. Both Trump and Clinton are criminals. I voted for Trump, he was the lesser of the 2 evils lol

Trump came from money, I see why he has billions. How can Clinton with a 120,000 a year tax payer job, be worth 300 million or more. Hmm, something going on under the table.

GFED

We already live in a fascist society of global corporate economics.

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JohnnyClips - BANNED FOR LIFE

How is Trump a criminal?

Bladewire

xKingx

xKingx

Well maybe not a criminal, but a shady businessman

JohnnyClips - BANNED FOR LIFE

How??.....

RedFred

I think its more like the far right wants fascism and the far left wants socialism.

Communism is more of an authoritarian/far right ideology, just take a look at east germany and the soviet union. They were not ran by a bunch of far left liberal hippies.

xKingx

Well either way both are terrible, and should not be wanted anywhere. I do see those idiots on the left with the Soviet Union flags waving them around at protest

JohnnyClips - BANNED FOR LIFE

Todays left would call Stalin "far right"...

thommy

trump does not have to build them - you already HAVE THEM

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JohnnyClips - BANNED FOR LIFE

Good, now time to round a lot of people up

pimpmaster9000

Capitalism starved 80.000.000 to death just in India

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xKingx

and there are still 1 point something billion of them and growing lol

thommy

Finally you admire being a fascist and nazi !

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MiamiBoyz

She is a career criminal...err...I mean "politician"

xKingx

Exactly, but those democrat team players don't care as long as there person gets voted in. Just like the Republicans team players. They both hate freedom and democracy. They just want their party elected.

thommy

how can you say that ?
you haven´t even seen trumps tax rolls - and THAT should make you worry !!!

you compare something what someone has opened and shown with something what is hidden (btw. the first time in the US history) - that is not really comparable and logic.
this is already a symptom of successful brainwashing.

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JohnnyClips - BANNED FOR LIFE

He's released his financial info, dumb thommy boy

CaptainHowdy

Ok .........

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xKingx

lol Trump came from money. I don't care about his fucking taxes. All rich fuckers in this country don't pay taxes, and find loopholes. Now I wonder how a career politician on tax payers money. Is worth 300 or more millions of dollars. When her salary comes no where near that hmm????

Joshua G

its comical how an entire political ideology is engaging in projection - accusing your opponents of what you are doing yourself.

after all fascism has components of...

systemic lying propaganda (the liberal corporate big 6 media)

oppression of speech (violent protests at college by liberals)

excusing lawlessness by the ruling class (hilary emails)

using the government to harrass political opponents (IRS scandal)

ignoring laws & creating executive orders contravening the law (obamas dreamers)

wiretapping political opponents (obama wired up trump)


who are the fascists again? dumb libs.

Joshua G

dumb libs. in hitlers first year of power, german secret police arrested 50,000 political opponents. they were never heard from ever again.

hitler declared a state of emergency & literally revoked free speech. & in 1934, he slaughtered all of his own leaders he thought might be turncoats.

do you dumb libs actually study real world history? do you realize how dumb you sound comparing trump to hitler?

even a liberal college professor from yale...moron!

thommy

WHERE ?
Post the link !!!!

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JohnnyClips - BANNED FOR LIFE

His entire financial records were released over a year ago, cuck!

thommy

can´t you really see HOW unlogic your argiments are?

in one case you say

and then
so you do not even KNOW if he is a rich fucker or bankrupt already but you compare the knowing with the unknown

you guys need really a very good psychiatrist

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thommy

so you DO NOT KNOW WHERE, right ?

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thommy

you dumbass do not even know when hitlers first year was.

i know much more about the history as you because i studied that LONG before you assholes need excuses for your blond whitehouse nazi and read just a little part.

the good thing is that you will see it in not such a long time from now and than i want to hear you brainwashed clowns again. but i am pretty sure you will find another enemy as your own stupidness.

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JohnnyClips - BANNED FOR LIFE

Why do shitlibs call everyone they dont like "hitler" or a "nazi"? Communism was 100 times worse

thommy

well you was the one who applauded when you found out about concentration camps.

and i do not want to compare the bad with the bad - there is no excuse for the bad because something worse is existing.

you are a nazi and you ought yourself 1000 times here as that.

the sad part on it is, that you are not even able to know that because you are so far under a reasonable intelligence level that is is hard for me to categorize you into human race.

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JohnnyClips - BANNED FOR LIFE

Who made the concenctration camps u speak of?

bronco67

Not to compliment Hitler, but Donald Trump isn't smart enough to be Hitler.

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Bladewire

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thommy

hitler was not smart.
if you ever read "mein kampf" you know how fucking stupid he was.

but he had the "hate charisma" at the right time when germans have been hungry and they would accept EVERY enemy someone presents them.
hitler did not win all this fights against so many countries at the same time - it have been brainwashed people - soldiers who thought they fight for the right thing.

the smart guys have been around hitler and this is something what trump doesn´t have.

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nico-t

another 'specialist'.

The only fascists we all see are the extreme leftwing radicals using violence against anyone they disagree with and shutting down free speech.

JohnnyClips - BANNED FOR LIFE

You are obsessed with hitler, thommy

pimpmaster9000

yes but it makes you point that communism killed 100mil kinda shite...

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poncabare

Your a clown

pimpmaster9000

*you're...

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EonBlue

Sounds to me like you are a very confused and/or misinformed individual. Most likely both.

Do you actual believe that the left/far left is incapable of authoritarianism?

Do you actually believe that the soviet union was far right?

Let me guess - you think communism is good and has just been misunderstood, right?


.

EonBlue

This. True fascism will come to us from the people claiming to be against fascism.

Words are so misused and misdirected these days that they are losing their real meaning. People claiming to be ant-fascist run around acting like actual fascists and people claiming to be anti-racists run around acting like actual racists.



.

JohnnyClips - BANNED FOR LIFE

this is so true

GFED

The right is more likely to be anarchists and the left is more likely to be fascists and communists. Fascism and communism are on the same side of the spectrum imo. This is the United States of America Inc. afterall.

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