Joe Sixpack

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Southwest....ap/index.html

Why don't we all just accept that real freedom of speech is just never going to happen.

theking

Highschool students have never had freedom of speech in the USA. They are not adults and do not have all of the rights provided to adults by our constitution.

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Sly_RJ

I thought you knew so much about the United States from your various stints here and your American wife?

Guess not.

Go worry about Australia. Surely there must be something to bitch about in your neck of the woods. Maybe you can go on a crusade over Australia's stance on porn?

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gothweb

That's not right. You don't have to be an adult to have freedom of speech. However, there are places where you give up some freedoms, in theory to protect others.

Also, remember, in the US, the First Ammendment only covers what laws can be passed. Freedom of Speech is not guaranteed by the Constitution, only that the government can't create laws to take it away.

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Joe Sixpack

I'll bitch about what I like, and I don't like hypocrisy.

So quit your fucking whining and either shut the fuck up or make a point.

Giorgio_Xo

Freedom of expression and freedom of expression without consequences are two different things.

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stocktrader23

I'm glad I'm not in school during this shit. This is something I wouldn't back down on.

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Sly_RJ

You sure told me.

Bad American! Bad American!

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flashfreak

democracy at its best!

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theking

Student speech has always been supervised/suppressed and still is.

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Sly_RJ

Ok, so, let's talk about Freedom of Speech in schools for a second...

So I'm 16, a sophomore in high school, and I'm very religious. Catholic, to be exact. I'm on this mission to convert as many people over to Catholicism as I can. I figure, hey, hundreds of people walk through the halls at school daily, I'm going to take advantage of that.

I make several huge posters. Saying things like "Jesus loves you", "God is your Father", and "Find the light, converts to Catholicism". I hang these up all over school, especially the high traffic hallways.

You guys have no problem with this?

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Joe Sixpack

This was a legitimate school project. It was a classroom display.

Also, your hypothetical violates your constitutional separation of church and state.

Sly_RJ

No it doesn't.

The separation of church and state is referencing the state endorsing the church. The state wouldn't be endorsing anything. I would. And I have that Freedom of Speech to do so.

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theking

The school board decides what is legitimate in each individual school district in this country. And there is great variance in the thousands of districts.

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Joe Sixpack

I don't think your hypothetical is comparable or appropriate. You are talking about putting posters in the school halls. I don't think anti-war or pro-war posters or any fucking posters for that matter should be lining the school corridors - obviously that's not practical - but as you have clearly failed to grasp (or just choosing to ignore) this was a legitimate school project and the artwork was displayed in the classroom.

Surely you can see the difference.

KRL

Blame it on the lawyers that have successfully sued school boards over the display of things which offend others. The school boards are all on the tightest budgets ever and can't afford any more million dollar settlements. Its all about money as usual.

Sly_RJ

No. I'm not talking about posters. I'm talking about the bare basics of this thread, which is Freedom of Speech. Those are the fundamentals we're talking about here.

I don't even agree with what they did, but they are allowed to do that. Schools can't even make Halloween or Christmas pictures anymore due to Freedom of Speech by minority groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses. The school board has the right to say what is and isn't acceptable.

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Sly_RJ

Exactly. It comes down to the minority groups not liking this or that. Check my last post.

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Joe Sixpack

"Rigo Chavez, a spokesman for the school district, said the teachers had been placed on paid administrative leave "in connection with the district's policy on the presentation of controversial issues."

Very sad. No room for an open mind in your education system it seems.

stocktrader23

Why would I care? I don't know what school you went to but there were people from several religions or no religion at all at my school. I would fight for your right to hang up a poster saying Catholics are cool the same way I would for someone making a poster against the war. If my school was the way schools are now I wouldn't have made it to graduation. This shit is just fucking silly.

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KRL

Tell you how bad it is Joe. My kid is in elementary school and they sent out a notice not to have your kids wear any shirts to school with graphics or text related to war or peace issues which might offend other classmates.

Now we're talking 2nd grade here, and that is just really scary that this is an issue at that level.

Joe Sixpack

Just a shame that there seems to be no room or tolerance for dissent at any level in the US. And I thought you were supposed to be the home of freedom of speech.

Dissent seems to be equated with being anti-American.... or in the case of this war, siding with terrorists.

Hope things change for the better over there. Repression of ideas is an ugly thing.

eroswebmaster

There's free speech and appropriate places to express it.

School may or may not be one of them.

I do not necessarily agree with what's going on in this article, but if all the school project did was to disrupt classes and take away from what they are established to do..teach...then I say put it away.

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eroswebmaster

Your lack of basic comprehension skills is laughable...I'm sure you chalk it up to the stellar australian educational system.

Do you not understand it's both sides that are being affected, those for the war, and those against...it's not about shutting up the dissenters, it's just about keeping peace in a place where their job is to just teach, and for kids to learn.

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eroswebmaster

No..it's NO ROOM FOR MORE VIOLENCE IN OUR SCHOOLS.

This war is causing people on both sides of the issue to act out in ways they might not normally act out in.

Who's to say that someone's not going to pick up a gun and go shoot the Afghani kid who's against the war...or who's to say that someone against the war might start a fight in the hallway with someone who is for the war...the list goes on.

So that's why they have a policy on "controversial issues."

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Joe Sixpack

I'd say it's your basic comprehension skills that are laughable. Part of basic comprehension is being able to read between the lines. Did you even read the article? The reason they had to take ALL the artwork down was so they could get rid of the anti-war pieces. I guarantee you that if all of them had been pro-war there wouldn't have been a problem.

The last sentence of the article is particularly telling: "On Monday, two teachers and a counselor from neighboring Rio Grande High School were cleared to return to work after similar suspensions for refusing to take down anti-war signs. "

The issue is the "anti-war" pieces. Are you so blind that you're incapable of seeing that?

By the way, our education system constantly performs well above average by world standards and is ALWAYS better than yours in all areas according to the statistics.

eroswebmaster

I find your America envy so sad.

The fact that you wake up each and every day just looking for a reason to point out some fault is pretty telling.

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Joe Sixpack

What is it exactly that I envy about the US?

eroswebmaster

I don't know Joe...but you know I don't find many people sitting around discussing things they hate so much...finding any article to attempt to back up their hate.

When I truly dislike something, I don't even give it the time of day...I guess that means I have a secret crush on you.

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CaroMark

Can someone explain to me what the current events teacher should have been able to allow if not the Pros & Cons of the current conflict? Perhaps he should have disallowed World News and only have taught National News, no that would not have worked either, how about Local News, no there might be a local involved! Seems obvious to me that we just cannot educate the youth on current event because it might upset someone.

Hmmm, with that in mind we should not teach history either, someone is going to get pissed off about that as well.

Now in the English class this situation could have been solved in advance by the teacher giving the students a list of approved topics from which to choose.

Bottom line as long as they were the students thoughts and expressions, pro or con, I say let them stay. If they had been the teachers on the other hand, that would have been improper!

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eroswebmaster

And you never responded to this:

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eroswebmaster

Current events are fine, however I think during these times where everyone's emotions are a bit stretched I don't think discussing the pros and cons of war would be appropriate.

However discussing the war would be.

That can be done without having students argue their feelings for or against it.

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Joe Sixpack

This story is on the front page on CNN today.

I thought it was worthy of discussion. I made a post about it. Yes, I am anti-war and that had something to do with it but other than that it doesn't get too much more complex.

I'll discuss any issue. If you want to bring a current issue from Australia onto the forum go right ahead. I disagree with many things our government does. I'll happily give you my opinion.

Your problem is that you simply don't like my views. Last time I checked this board was called Go Fuck Yourself, so you're just going to have to get over that.

eroswebmaster

Man you're so cute when you're angry...you must have been the butch in all your past relationships.

And you know what...the only view I ever see you express is anti-american so keep it up with the envy ..let me see if I can say this correctly....

guh die might

is that phonetically correct?

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eroswebmaster

Oh yeah you still never responded to my post about how this war talk could cause violence in the schools against either a pro-war student or anti-war student.

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Joe Sixpack

G' Dae Mayte would be more phonetically correct.

eroswebmaster

LOL trying to avoid the obvious aren't you?

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Joe Sixpack

Violence at schools is unacceptable as it is in society generally. It should be cracked down upon.

But you can't not deal with issues just "in case" of violence. Kids have to be taught to be respectful of the fact that others are entitled to their opinion even though it may be diametrically opposed to theirs. Diversity, open mindedness and tolerance should be promoted in schools as a matter of principle.

Just lucky that we don't have kids bringing guns to school here. That's when school violence turns tragic.

eroswebmaster

Yes you can, when it comes to school, and dealing with children.

There are far less volatile subjects that can be discussed that would teach diversity, and how to respect other's opinions.

What we're talking about here is not free speech, but appropriate speech...and right now in schools discussing the war is appropriate, but arguing and debating the pros and cons of this war is not. Not when adults can't even keep their emotions in check.

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nuclei

Lets see here, saddam's troops are using women and kids as human shields, he is torturing our pows using car batteries, etc, he is paying families huge sums of cash if one of their members commits a suicide bombing. Using terrorism was a poor choice of words as that is EXACTLY what he is.

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Gutterboy

The Supreme Court thinks otherwise. It would be a form of State endorsement because without the State, you wouldn't have a captive audience to evangelize. This is the reason school prayer that involves *voluntary attendance* is not a problem, but praying over a public PA system at a football game is.

stocktrader23

*sigh*

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"I try to make a habit of bouncing my eyes up to the face of a beautiful woman, and often repeat “not mine” in my head or even verbally. She’s not mine. God has her set aside. She’s not mine. She’s His little girl, and she needs me to fight for her by keeping my eyes where they should be."

nuclei

whats the matter stocktrader?

Lemme guess, they are not using women and kids as shields. Thats why the arab stations broadcast that the pics of them doing so was troops carrying them out of the battle zone to protect them right?


or the building where they had all them on top of it so we wouldnt bomb it maybe?

Yeh, he is not a terrorist, he just uses the same exact methods by coincidence.

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Gutterboy

There is alot of confusion over this, but its really no different that the after school clubs issue. If the school allows the Bible club, it has to allow the gay club. They can't have one and not the other, but they can choose to have no clubs at all.

Same thing with sensitive current events topics. Public schools are within their rights to ban viewpoint expressions on particular subjects as long as they ban *all* viewpoint on the subject. If they allow Pro they have to allow Con, but they can choose to allow neither in the interests of maintaining a non-combative learning environment.

Or at least thats how it used to work in my school district...

lickmymonster

stocktrader23

No the matter is that you have the comprehension of a 3rd grader. Let's look at what Joe said.

"Dissent seems to be equated with being anti-American.... or in the case of this war, siding with terrorists. "

To which you responded....

"Lets see here, saddam's troops are using women and kids as human shields, he is torturing our pows using car batteries, etc, he is paying families huge sums of cash if one of their members commits a suicide bombing. Using terrorism was a poor choice of words as that is EXACTLY what he is. "

Dissent means having a difference of opinion. So Joe was saying that people consider anyone with the anti-war opinion as siding with Saddam and/or terrorists. All you did was prove that his comment is correct. Anti-War is not fucking pro Saddam. Get it through your thick skull. I don't agree with this war and I despise Saddam. Wow, you pointed out that Saddam was a terrorist while overlooking the fact that Joe doesn't support Saddam.

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"I try to make a habit of bouncing my eyes up to the face of a beautiful woman, and often repeat “not mine” in my head or even verbally. She’s not mine. God has her set aside. She’s not mine. She’s His little girl, and she needs me to fight for her by keeping my eyes where they should be."

theking

That is the current situation in many, if not the majority, of school districts. Well stated.

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Here's something to think about:

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What a silly fucking point you are trying so poorly to make...

School Kids.... Get real.


Your anti-American bull shit is reaching new lows mate.

You have forgotten that once you make so many bull shit remarks and attempted put downs, that now just about any point you try to make isn't going to be taken seriously by anyone in the States, in fact, most of it comes across like school boy jealously really.

It's pretty much got to when looking at the main page, when you see your name you know it's another cry-baby whinning about America thread ... again....


Get over it man - I can safely say I don't think anyone in the States really gives a flying fuck what you think - go back and read your own thead!

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tony286

Keep defending the actions of the right and you can tell your coworkers at Starbucks how you used to be a big adult webmaster before the right ran us all out of busniess.