Rumseld ignored Pentagon advice-report - GoFuckYourself.com

theking · 03-30-2003, 12:48 AM

"WASHINGTON, March 29 Reuters - U.S. Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld repeatedly rejected advice from Pentagon planners that substantially more troops and armour would be needed to fight a war in Iraq, New Yorker Magazine reports.
In an article for its April 7 edition, which goes on sale on Monday, the weekly said Rumsfeld insisted at least six times in the run-up to the conflict that the proposed number of ground troops be sharply reduced and got his way.

"He thought he knew better. He was the decision-maker at every turn," the article quoted an unidentified senior Pentagon planner as saying. "This is the mess Rummy put himself in because he didn't want a heavy footprint on the ground."

It also said Rumsfeld had overruled advice from war commander General Tommy Franks to delay the invasion until troops denied access through Turkey could be brought in by another route and miscalculated the level of Iraqi resistance."

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle...toryID=2472052

I suspect this may be true. Bush Senior and his Admin at least had the sense to allow the military virtually everything it asked for during the 1st Gulf War. Shit goes south when civilians micro manage military operations.

The Other Steve · 03-30-2003, 02:28 AM

There was a report in the paper down here that said Rumsfeld and his civilian advisors rewrote the Pentagon's battle plans.

Either way I don't think they allowed for the fact that the Iraqi's were not going to run away this time.

Probono · 03-30-2003, 09:10 AM

Taking this as fact it will only delay the ineviable. Saddam will fall unless is able to use the delay and Arab public opinion to somehow stop the war. If he succeeds in that he will win just as he believes he won the Gulf War.

Us tactics are now very clear. Hold, consolidate, resupply, add troops and degrade the Irfaqi military from the air. I expect the actual assaut on Bagdad in about 7-10 days after the 4th infantry and additonal forces are inplace in the north.

Onced the assult begins Saddam will either capitulate (I doubt it) or unleash his dogs of war. Iraq has committed very little of it's military yet. The longer this continues the less military he has to commit.

TheFLY · 03-30-2003, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Probono
Onced the assult begins Saddam will either capitulate (I doubt it) or unleash his dogs of war. Iraq has committed very little of it's military yet. The longer this continues the less military he has to commit. [/B]

That's where you're wrong. Saddam has not used his military because he DOESN'T NEED TO!!!

The USA is not there to kill civilians or destroy the city... So what's the hurry of Saddam? All Saddam's military has to do is just chill out of uniform -- and take easy sniper shots once and a while when the USA's guard is down...

The USA is in a hurry and Saddam is just chillin...

TheFLY · 03-30-2003, 09:26 AM

All these bombs that we drop -- it's just a waste of time and US tax dollars... Saddam had YEARS to plan for this -- I'm sure there are guns hidden all over the city...

But all of Bush's defense contracting buddies in Texas are very very very happy that we are dropping so many bombs... but really what is the point? If you don't kill the civilians, it's a totally pointless attack...

Probono · 03-30-2003, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheFLY
All these bombs that we drop -- it's just a waste of time and US tax dollars... Saddam had YEARS to plan for this -- I'm sure there are guns hidden all over the city...

But all of Bush's defense contracting buddies in Texas are very very very happy that we are dropping so many bombs... but really what is the point? If you don't kill the civilians, it's a totally pointless attack...

You are correct on the planning and hiodden resources. Still those forces on the ground are being degraded by bombing and other means. Remember that in the Gulf War bombing went on for 40 days prior to a land invasion, it had it's effect. This time the ground forces went in with 24 hours of the first bombing. They raced and succeeded in capturing some crucial bridges that will be needed.

I am not usually hawkish and never a Bush fan but this war must be completed.

Gemini · 03-30-2003, 10:17 AM

According to Schwarzkopf on an interview show in the last week or so, Rummy had drawn up the entire plan and they called him in to review it. Schwarz skimmed it, tossed it on the table and said Franks hadn't drawn that plan up. And that, that "plan" would never work, get thousands of soldiers slaughtered yadda yadda yadda,,,

The nitty gritty was they had Franks and crew draw up another and Schwarz said it looked fine and then Rummy put his fingers in again...

Watching the way Schwarzkopf acted when he was telling the story, he will NOT be helping the idiots out again anytime too soon. And yes, the two of us here believe Schwarzkopf over anyone involved with Bush ANY day.

TheFLY · 03-30-2003, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Probono

You are correct on the planning and hiodden resources. Still those forces on the ground are being degraded by bombing and other means. Remember that in the Gulf War bombing went on for 40 days prior to a land invasion, it had it's effect.

How did the bombing have an effect? You can't aim a bomb at just soldiers in this war. Do you think the Iraqi's are wearing uniforms around stockpiles of guns saying "hey bomb me!" I don't think anyone would be that dumb... The bombs are just to make the USA feel important -- like they are actually accomplishing something... Every time CNN gets onto a stale subject where obviously the USA is looking bad in the world press -- they cut in the footage with bomb noises and all of a sudden we are just listening and watching bombs drop but who really cares? They tell us Saddam is hiding underground -- like under churches and hospitals like 300 feet underground... Seriously what the hell are they accomplishing with these bombs I'd like to know -- the whole "shock and awe" is just that -- a lot of hype but nobody actually dies and the Iraqi's still have their weapons hidden safely all over the city... I'm no military expert -- this is just the common sense way to defend any city... I don't even have to watch CNN to know what will happen. Team USA will move in, lots of soldiers will die -- lots of civilians will die -- and it will go on and on for months and months... Even if Saddam is dead -- nobody will know or care... For all we know, the Iraqi army won't even attack until the USA has claimed victory! I can see the first Iraqi Starbucks getting blown to pieces the first day it's opened... You think Americans are scared of terror? Just wait until Americans try to set up shop in Iraq You will be ordering Bigmac's through a bomb blast shield!!! Too funny!

Quote:

This time the ground forces went in with 24 hours of the first bombing. They raced and succeeded in capturing some crucial bridges that will be needed.

Seriously man who cares about bridges? Even if you search everyone crossing the bridge -- that doesn't mean shit -- the guns/weapons are already hidden throughout the city... No Iraqi's will be walking around with guns! They don't need to! You can't babysit the entire fucking population... How will you search an entire city for weapons? Just not possible...

The fact remains -- USA is the enemy to many Iraqi's -- and always will be -- liberation is laughable. And you can't prove me wrong unless you can read the mind of man, woman and child in Iraq!

Probono · 03-30-2003, 10:35 AM

Hey Fly wake up.

1. Bridges are important becasue you need them intact to move men, tanks and material

2. Tanks, artillery, aircraft, runways, etc are significant targets as are dugin command and control facilities.

3. When watching Arab news I see Iraqi's telling tghe media how they hate the invaders, when I watch US media I see other Iraqi's hinting at the opposite. We won't know the truth on this till it is over. The Shite's in the South were screwed by George Bush Sr 12 years ago, I doubt they will do much to help the US until they fell the US has eliminated Saddam.

This is a war, regardless of what spin anyone putsd on it the real reason is to get Saddam and prevent him from supporting and proliferating terrorists agains the US. We not do this for oil or for the Iraqi people both of those messages are spin.

TheFLY · 03-30-2003, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Probono

You are correct on the planning and hiodden resources. Still those forces on the ground are being degraded by bombing and other means.

What exactly does "degraded" mean? They are offended by the bombs? The USA won't let all the Iraqi's die or guess what -- the world will see the USA for it's true colors -- "full of shit" -- the world is watching and waiting for the "freedom" -- only it will never come... Meanwhile Iraq will be "degraded" but who cares... Do you really think you are weakening the enemy? Do you really think people will just surrender when they are tired and hungry and weak? The cause of the suffering is the USA... An entire fucking city can't surrender!

Are you all on crack? You can't take an entire country prisoner?!

Somebody please explain to me how this is going to work... how Iraqi's will be sucking the nipple of the very enemy that has killed them over the past 12 years... It's a retarded scenario "coalition" or not... Even if the majority of the people enjoy the benefits of "freedom", there will always be resistance and we are back to where we started.

TheFLY · 03-30-2003, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Probono
Hey Fly wake up.

1. Bridges are important becasue you need them intact to move men, tanks and material

So what? If you have 1 MILLION troops in Baghdad, are you going to babysit each Iraqi and tuck them in at night? watching them with thermal goggles so they don't wake up in the middle of the night and chop your dick off? Please -- the USA has killed THOUSANDS of Iraqi's -- fuck Saddam these people will never forget what the USA has done to them.

You need an entire army to kill 1 man? Even if he was dead right now -- who cares? It has been said before -- there's plenty of organized crime ready to take his place... that won't be so happy to see outsiders walking in trying to run things... This will never end.

Quote:

2. Tanks, artillery, aircraft, runways, etc are significant targets as are dugin command and control facilities.

I ask again. For what purpose? Even if you *could* exterminate Saddam and his "regime" -- that doesn't change anything. The USA is its own enemy. Every Iraqi that dies -- every bomb that is dropped -- just renews more deep rooted hatred for the USA... Nothing will change that and no amount of food and gifts will change that. You kill someone's father, someone's brother, someone's uncle, someone's son... do you expect them to just say "well I can forgive the USA -- it's really Saddam's fault anyway..." If you honestly can believe that you are on crack.

Quote:

This is a war, regardless of what spin anyone putsd on it the real reason is to get Saddam and prevent him from supporting and proliferating terrorists agains the US. We not do this for oil or for the Iraqi people both of those messages are spin.

I never said anything about oil. Maybe you are scratching your head wondering why we have this war in the first place maybe? Hahaha...

jas1552 · 03-30-2003, 12:29 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/...eld/index.html

theking · 03-30-2003, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheFlyTheFLY

What exactly does "degraded" mean? They are offended by the bombs? The USA won't let all the Iraqi's die or guess what -- the world will see the USA for it's true colors -- "full of shit" -- the world is watching and waiting for the "freedom" -- only it will never come... Meanwhile Iraq will be "degraded" but who cares... Do you really think you are weakening the enemy? Do you really think people will just surrender when they are tired and hungry and weak? The cause of the suffering is the USA... An entire fucking city can't surrender! Are you all on crack? You can't take an entire country prisoner?!

Somebody please explain to me how this is going to work... how Iraqi's will be sucking the nipple of the very enemy that has killed them over the past 12 years... It's a retarded scenario "coalition" or not... Even if the majority of the people enjoy the benefits of "freedom", there will always be resistance and we are back to where we started.

I am sure that you have heard of the Second World War. How many thousands of villages, towns, cities did we take. Many, many, of them being street to street fighting (dealing with snipers etc.), up to and including Germany proper.

Quote:

Even if the majority of the people enjoy the benefits of "freedom", there will always be resistance and we are back to where we started."

Taking control of Iraq will be the easy part, but winning the peace will not be so easy. I think that you are right about your statement quoted above. Just keep in mind that around 25,000 Americans are murdered in the USA each year and we live with that, and I seriously doubt that 25,000 Americans will be killed by "Iraqi resistance fighters" each year after we take control of the country, but whatever the number turns out to be we will just have to deal with it.

03-30-2003, 12:48 AM	#1
theking Nice Kitty Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The good old USA!!! Posts: 21,053	Rumseld ignored Pentagon advice-report "WASHINGTON, March 29 Reuters - U.S. Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld repeatedly rejected advice from Pentagon planners that substantially more troops and armour would be needed to fight a war in Iraq, New Yorker Magazine reports. In an article for its April 7 edition, which goes on sale on Monday, the weekly said Rumsfeld insisted at least six times in the run-up to the conflict that the proposed number of ground troops be sharply reduced and got his way. "He thought he knew better. He was the decision-maker at every turn," the article quoted an unidentified senior Pentagon planner as saying. "This is the mess Rummy put himself in because he didn't want a heavy footprint on the ground." It also said Rumsfeld had overruled advice from war commander General Tommy Franks to delay the invasion until troops denied access through Turkey could be brought in by another route and miscalculated the level of Iraqi resistance." http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle...toryID=2472052 I suspect this may be true. Bush Senior and his Admin at least had the sense to allow the military virtually everything it asked for during the 1st Gulf War. Shit goes south when civilians micro manage military operations. __________________ When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me! FOR THE LYING LOWLIFE POSTING AS PATHFINDER...https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-pr...athfinder.html Last edited by theking; 03-30-2003 at 01:38 AM..

03-30-2003, 02:28 AM	#2
The Other Steve Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Sunny Queensland - perfect one day and better the next. Posts: 2,106	There was a report in the paper down here that said Rumsfeld and his civilian advisors rewrote the Pentagon's battle plans. Either way I don't think they allowed for the fact that the Iraqi's were not going to run away this time. __________________ Left intentionally blank ... just like my brain

03-30-2003, 10:17 AM	#7
Gemini Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: o-HI-o Posts: 7,183	According to Schwarzkopf on an interview show in the last week or so, Rummy had drawn up the entire plan and they called him in to review it. Schwarz skimmed it, tossed it on the table and said Franks hadn't drawn that plan up. And that, that "plan" would never work, get thousands of soldiers slaughtered yadda yadda yadda,,, The nitty gritty was they had Franks and crew draw up another and Schwarz said it looked fine and then Rummy put his fingers in again... Watching the way Schwarzkopf acted when he was telling the story, he will NOT be helping the idiots out again anytime too soon. And yes, the two of us here believe Schwarzkopf over anyone involved with Bush ANY day. __________________ <center><a target="_blank" href="http://dev.datedollars.com/index.php?s=signup&aid=535&cfg=aac"><img border="0" src="http://216.130.172.224/gfy/gsig.gif" width="490" height="100"></a><br><a href="http://dev.datedollars.com/index.php?s=signup&aid=535&cfg=aac" target="_blank"><b><font face="Arial"><font color="#FF99FF"> Buy me away from Slavedriver Smokey!<br>It's May Sig Sweeps!<font></b></center>

03-30-2003, 09:10 AM	#3
Probono Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Under the Rainbow Posts: 2,731	Taking this as fact it will only delay the ineviable. Saddam will fall unless is able to use the delay and Arab public opinion to somehow stop the war. If he succeeds in that he will win just as he believes he won the Gulf War. Us tactics are now very clear. Hold, consolidate, resupply, add troops and degrade the Irfaqi military from the air. I expect the actual assaut on Bagdad in about 7-10 days after the 4th infantry and additonal forces are inplace in the north. Onced the assult begins Saddam will either capitulate (I doubt it) or unleash his dogs of war. Iraq has committed very little of it's military yet. The longer this continues the less military he has to commit.

03-30-2003, 09:26 AM	#5
TheFLY So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: http://www.thefly.net/ --- Quit your job and live off steady traffic. Posts: 11,856	All these bombs that we drop -- it's just a waste of time and US tax dollars... Saddam had YEARS to plan for this -- I'm sure there are guns hidden all over the city... But all of Bush's defense contracting buddies in Texas are very very very happy that we are dropping so many bombs... but really what is the point? If you don't kill the civilians, it's a totally pointless attack...

03-30-2003, 10:35 AM	#9
Probono Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Under the Rainbow Posts: 2,731	Hey Fly wake up. 1. Bridges are important becasue you need them intact to move men, tanks and material 2. Tanks, artillery, aircraft, runways, etc are significant targets as are dugin command and control facilities. 3. When watching Arab news I see Iraqi's telling tghe media how they hate the invaders, when I watch US media I see other Iraqi's hinting at the opposite. We won't know the truth on this till it is over. The Shite's in the South were screwed by George Bush Sr 12 years ago, I doubt they will do much to help the US until they fell the US has eliminated Saddam. This is a war, regardless of what spin anyone putsd on it the real reason is to get Saddam and prevent him from supporting and proliferating terrorists agains the US. We not do this for oil or for the Iraqi people both of those messages are spin.

03-30-2003, 12:29 PM	#12
jas1552 Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Land of the free, home of the brave Posts: 1,462	http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/...eld/index.html