Originally Posted by adultmobile (Post 21037648)

Yet, when a guy like one specific girl, will waste all his money with her in private no matter there are thousands of other girls showing for free live, this is what everyone wanting to work with cams it should understand. If a guy wants a model that's her and the rest of the world, free or more quality, does not apply.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 21039223)

I fully understand the problem people have working in the Third World Webcam Studio business model. They have girls who can't speak English so need a translator typing for a group of girls, not educated enough to know about laptops, can't afford them, willing to work all week for what Western Girls earn in an hour, have filthy toilet and cleanliness habits, willing to be managed by losers, and all you say about them.

This is about the surfer preferring girls he can talk to directly 1-1, know more about the girl than just seeing her in a small window. It's the difference between a $10 street crack whore and a $500 an hour escort.

Maybe your models will continue with girls who are willing to earn $10 a day. The cream of the business will move to the $500 a day girls. The deciding factor is affiliates, who will keep sending traffic to girls who are so bad?

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam (Post 21039325)

Paul if you think you can run a cam site profitably - do it.
Talk is cheap.

Paul Markham Teens Free Tube - Home

gee, I'm really impressed

Originally Posted by oppoten (Post 21031267)

have you seen the size of his ignore list :1orglaugh

Originally Posted by Tjeezers_Brokerbabe (Post 21042451)

I visited last week some very classy studios in Colombia
I was fairly impressed, the LALExpo was a great event and provided us with a look inside the webcam quality deliverance there, and I was again Impressed!

Originally Posted by adultmobile (Post 21037645)

I know I am putting myself in middle of a Clash of Titans (Barry and Markham), and this may summon a Ghostbusters-worth armageddon.

So, I've both converted photo studios to cam studios (in siberia and ukraine) and started and managed multiple cam sites for 3rd parties (one of which being Met-Art), with both own managed studios and 3rd party studios and independent models. That's not since 1895 as Markham and Barry (no one questions they're older than anyone else here), yet, done this since 2003, enough to see all the changes (pre and post tube, pre and post myfreecams etc.).

Now if I understand the Clash of Titans debate:

Markham noted, that the cam sites are getting as many girls (whatever independent or studios) as possible with no control over who is there - i.e. like a facebook, anyone signups and is independent, the site it's just an automated platform (no any interest in studios, no any editorial action, just make sure everyone is 18+). However, Markham notes, such way it ends up (like tubes?) so the traffic unit is spread around endless offering and so "this model doesn't earn enough to interest girls in the West. Forcing studios to go to the Third World."

Markham's theory is that, even if he never accepted the offer of converting his photo studio to cam studio (and so he never tried to run a cam studio, or even less a cam site), he thinks that content "quality" (content is King), controlled by pro photo producers is the key, esp. for western cam production. And cam sites should actually (if I understand) allow to stream only a few models they deem as best "quality", and control them like movie or art directors, and so on.

Barry answers with a practical, statistical, historical statement: anyone could have tried to do what Markham said (and some tried), but really, most or all of up and running cam sites, simply let signup anyone. There's a natural selection happening there (free market, or evolutionary), so models who get tired (because no money or else reason) quit and others keep.

Now, anyone can take a look at the complete list of cam sites I wrote:

https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-pr...-existing.html

There, one can see that most of what's at top does not own cam studios (ok, streamate and jasmin got some studio deals in east europe, but is a minority), and does not filter out "bad quality" models. Everyone can register, traffic is sent to site, then there's natural selection.

Now, if you scroll down to "smaller" sites, you find tubecamgirl (mine), seventeenlive, and a few others (that since was sold or died actually), that really limited the number of models and studios, and kept some control on studio (at least until recently). In fact back in 2003 when I started, it was common for cam sites to own the principal studios, care to "quality" and be art directors. This is how I started and suited perfectly with Met-Art where same model in photo set and cams was the Markham way.

Yes, Markham states that the future is the past. Markham's avatar pic is a Neanderthal man, an extinct race - he implies, really Neanderthals was best, and it was unfair that homo sapiens prevailed. The issue is, that most people in cams until 10-15 years ago believed in what Markham states today, and tried hard to own and control studios and to do beauty contest with performers, and keep out the bad quality ones. This is also cool for the ego of the chief pimp in office. Simply, this resulted in less sales, until some closed, or others "adapted" to take anyone and let the natural selection be done later, on site.

While it is true that most westerns (but also 3rd world's) performers try cams thinking they'll do money, and quit shortly after figuring that's not the case... and only those truly unemployed yet willing to cam, or simply horny exhibitionist character, or those who fished a single big whale paying all bills... keep doing cams for long time... yet there is not a single standard to rate "quality".

The bug in Markham's reasoning is that not everyone considers quality in the same way. Mine quality idea sent me to work at Met-Art, since I was convinced that Met-Art selected the models and the poses and "quality" in the best available way across the internet. Also I was producing content in same places (Ukraine, Russia) so it was just matter of convert photo studio to cam studio, by renting fast internet lines (expensive ast the time, now no more), 3ccd camcorders with firewire port and tripods (expensive - now a logitech $70 cam does excellent video), as well as bribes to the local police and all the package. The girls also was stealing toilet paper, tea and bringing home tons of stuff we had to buy in big amounts to account for studio usage plus all the stole for the families and friends of theirs across the whole city. In some cases they stole the whole studio (we found it empty, including refrigerators gone). That's fine, it was fun stories to tell like I do now.

So it went well, streaming met-art live shows inside met-art member area, sure I was delivering the right thing in the right place, anmd it matched my idea of quality. Yet something odd started to happen: one of the less pretty and especially less friendly or skilled girls (that I was nearly skipping: bad English speaking, goofy posing, often appeared bored in video etc.), got one single guy spending with her $5k+ a month, and this was like $90k in 12 months, all this single guy for this single otherwise unsuccessful girl. The guy later visited her in Russia, showered her of money, and she continued to bounce him anyway. Ok so I had discovered something new: this single bad quality content (according to all standards), bring to company $90k a year, which was higher than what the best content girls could bring by summing hundreds of happy but smaller customers.

A little later, I discovered that very bad video quality, lighting and background it can also bring more money than crystal clear super fast 3ccd camcorder studio streams. I was not allowing any stream under a certain speed and video, colos, lighting quality - however we had one Met-Art famous model that had simply that bad cam on bad internet at her home, she was far from nearest studio, so no choice, she was famous so I allowed. Well the guys was not minding the 1 frame per second, grainy and bad color video, since it was her! The model they admired in countless nice photosets. Further, she could not speak any english, so she just smiled and say hello, no interaction. The guys taking her in private was learning russian to just talk her. It was amasing.
I later allowed girls with very bad videos and framerate, and could not see any sales difference between good and bad video... counterintuitive really.

After the Met-Art era I could try with fat models, 40+ year old models, and there was always someone who liked that. Some guy simply was taking in private the girls to show himself wearing female clothes, not caring how the performer looked like. Other guys wanted the girl to tell them they have a small cock and losers. I ended up very confused at first, but then, I ended up with the practical evolutionary reality. You can't predict what stocks in the market will do well or bad, as well as you can't predict what cam performers will do well or bad. Just to an extent, Apple may do generally better than unknown stock, but some time this is not so.

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho (Post 21043075)

I also sort of taught girls how to chat in order to establish a personal connection as opposed to just being a piece of meat that's well picked and well presented. That paid off like nothing else!

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho (Post 21043075)

It's crystal clear who in this thread speaks from actual experience.

Originally Posted by adultmobile (Post 21043375)

About actual experience of working with cam girls let me copy paste a support request from a model that is happening right now with one admin:

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 21043444)

If that's the average encounter between model and customer. You have a real problem.

If it's a dumb model, yes we all have those experiences. I used to send them home. Why don't you?

Originally Posted by adultmobile (Post 21043486)

The whole and main point of what I wrote (and everyone else reading, except you, have understood such a very easy point, as expected), it is:

* Customers want, and return spending money with, such kind of models that you would have "sent to home" because "low quality" and "real problem". I used to pick models with the very same requirements you talk about now (I believe running 5+ years of whole met-art cams + part of photos operation is enough of a reference?). But, for cams I had to change ideas - that's not like photos. Believe it or not, this is a fact, and not going to try to explain it with social, psychological or other rocket science. I don't even care as it counter intuitive and against the common sense. The guys who spend the most money in cams are different from those who go with escorts or look at pictures.

* If abusive, unpolite, ugly, bad mood, boring, "low quality" model it sells, and so if it works, that's enough, just don't fix what works. Look at the top page of cam4, chaturbate etc. you may see gross stuff - and the cute girls are in second page. I would NOT spend my money as customer with any of those models you would send home, but in fact I am NOT a cam site customer (as well as you aren't one), so our very good taste makes no any effect in cam site sales.

* I make an example: Paul Markham opens a fruit shop. He decides that he likes only Red Apples because it's the highest quality fruit. Fills whole shop with Red Apples. Customers pass by and start asking Green Apples, Pears, Apricots, Peachs, Paul Markham teaches every client that Red Apples are the best and he would never sell Green Apples, Pears, Apricots, Peachs. Nearby, Mr. RealCams opens a shop with Green Apples, Pears, Apricots, Peachs, and even Red Apples too. All the clients go to Mr. RealCams. Then, Paul Markham, starts to write in forums that the future is Red Apples, and RealCams should change, because times are changing, and RealCams should stop selling Pears, Apricots, Peachs, as the future is Red Apples.

So, your question: "I used to send them home. Why don't you?"... Because we serve the customers giving (and leaving in site) what the customer wants, and not what the site manager likes more. If the customers want the models we would send home, the best business decision is to keep them, and just have a (respectful) laugh at the guys who return spending money with these girls. Believe it or not.

If you intend to run a cam company like a personal service for your own usage (not for profit), that's a different thing.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 21043582)

To me the customer is king, he drives my marketing thinking and with Alexa rankings it's clear what customers want.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 21043087)

That's precisely what I'm getting at. You had to know what the customer would like if you taught the girls how to attract more of them.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 21043087)

did the more personable girls get more sign ups and faster ones that the rest?

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 21043087)

Agree. One doesn't need to know how to then bake the cake to know it's best.

I agree that with a lot of girls it's not worth the effort, in my field only 1-5 made the grade here in Czech, 1-10 in the UK. Shooting some was an uphill struggle, some lasted a few hours. This is about motivating te best to reach a higher level. Like teaching, them how to chat to surfers.

Which for girls working in the Third World with no English skills is hard. They now compete with Chaturbate where the girls, based in their homes, talk to people.

My idea is to take it to another level.

Originally Posted by adultmobile (Post 21043633)

Ok so you finally understood that the customers pay for models me and you don't like and would not pay for. And what you do? you change topic into traffic.

You don't measure the site revenue with Alexa ranking. It used to mean something until 2005 or maybe 2010, but now little. Except the fact that it tracks some web and not mobile, you really measure how many indians, pakistani, brazilians, russians and arabs you got. That's what the 80% of traffic is made of, in 2016.
Just by closing the site from those countries, brings down ranking by 10 times. Our sites are in both signature and avatar image, if you can't see them you live in the wrong country.
Even the USA traffic is not USA, 10%+ is again arabs etc. under USA proxy, since they learned to use proxies to access all the sites.
Also 30% of those left who are really not 3rd works, are under 18.
Add to this that one can either use or not popunder adverts: $1 for 1000 hits. What jasmin used for ages and was alexa #50 or so. You can go alexa #5000 with few thousand dollars a month investment - but extra sales does not pay back even the investment (networks would not sell the traffic to you otherwise, but send to programs).
Other note, there are the whitelabels, these account for different domains.
So the actual sales rank of cam sites are very different from the alexa rankings, for example streamate.com is probably #1 in sales but nowhere #1 in alexa rank.

Originally Posted by adultmobile (Post 21043633)

Ok so you finally understood that the customers pay for models me and you don't like and would not pay for. And what you do? you change topic into traffic.

You don't measure the site revenue with Alexa ranking. It used to mean something until 2005 or maybe 2010, but now little. Except the fact that it tracks some web and not mobile, you really measure how many indians, pakistani, brazilians, russians and arabs you got. That's what the 80% of traffic is made of, in 2016.
Just by closing the site from those countries, brings down ranking by 10 times. Our sites are in both signature and avatar image, if you can't see them you live in the wrong country.
Even the USA traffic is not USA, 10%+ is again arabs etc. under USA proxy, since they learned to use proxies to access all the sites.
Also 30% of those left who are really not 3rd works, are under 18.
Add to this that one can either use or not popunder adverts: $1 for 1000 hits. What jasmin used for ages and was alexa #50 or so. You can go alexa #5000 with few thousand dollars a month investment - but extra sales does not pay back even the investment (networks would not sell the traffic to you otherwise, but send to programs).
Other note, there are the whitelabels, these account for different domains.
So the actual sales rank of cam sites are very different from the alexa rankings, for example streamate.com is probably #1 in sales but nowhere #1 in alexa rank.

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho (Post 21043648)

That's not the point, I didn't know what the customer wants, nobody knows what a customer wants the moment he enters the cam room, since every single one of them can and does look for something else.

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam (Post 21026764)

Paul Markham made the comment in another thread saying that somehow the studio/cam site model was dead or dying -- that is most certainly not true -- it is utterly ludicrous. Cam websites are generating millions of dollars a month, profitably, with that exact format and that proves that statement to be a fallacy and illusory.

Why is herding cats in the title of this post -- because that is exactly what functioning with only independent cam models is. I am going to guess that 15K models perform every day, globally in all ways excluding the independent Skype cams -- they are on the periphery.

Can you imagine trying to keep some order and business decorum among 1000 models no less 15,000?

GNI per Capita : 53,750 US => 26,740 CZ => 23,190 RU => 18,410 => RO => 11,960 => CO We are uplifting ''third world incomes"
MAKE THE WORD GREAT! Where do you live Paul? In the Middle World?

Truthfully, the money made by most camgirls is more appropriate in these (and other) countries, averaged earnings globally. Most cam models will not make $100K a year and more.

This is not to say that there are no First World models/performers doing webcams. This is not to say that the growth potential is in independent cam girls (PERHAPS). This is not to say that there are more and more independent cam performers in RO, CZ, RU other countries where you would expect studios to be.

It takes $2K to $3K to realistically become a top earning independent cam model; Fiber Internet, good webcams with zoom, high end PC s. To many people that is a lot to invest in a longshot business -- cam studios provide these things and professional expertise. Many cam performers see this as a job -- a means to an end and not a long term career choice. College students on summer break are a big resource as an example -- they come back until they finish school and then move on.

Being a PayPal or Western Union cam whore is a rough row to hoe for a 'ho :2 cents:

Originally Posted by Devious Angel (Post 21043744)

Darling, caming is a great money earing industry. Alive and well.
We might be cam whores, but we make about 24k $ a month.
That's something for someone that's dead..

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam (Post 21027682)

@paul
Good luck with your new venture as the 'master mentor'

http://www.writeraccess.com/blog/wp-...-cats-blog.jpg

Originally Posted by Devious Angel (Post 21043744)

Darling, caming is a great money earing industry. Alive and well.
We might be cam whores, but we make about 24k $ a month.
That's something for someone that's dead..

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho

OK my bad - I guess I fell for a bait. Apologize for having an actual real business experience in cams, from running a studio up to being involved in actually running a cam site with first hand access to all the data. I'm done trying to talk actual sense.

Let's rather talk out of one's ass spreading biased, over the top, borderline insane assumptions and try way too hard to ridicule anyone countering it with actual knowledge.

I guess not me or anybody else here can beat you in your own game of talking out of your ass Paul - Bravo! I'll give you that.

Originally Posted by adultmobile (Post 21043486)

* I make an example: Paul Markham opens a fruit shop. He decides that he likes only Red Apples because it's the highest quality fruit. Fills whole shop with Red Apples. Customers pass by and start asking Green Apples, Pears, Apricots, Peachs, Paul Markham teaches every client that Red Apples are the best and he would never sell Green Apples, Pears, Apricots, Peachs. Nearby, Mr. RealCams opens a shop with Green Apples, Pears, Apricots, Peachs, and even Red Apples too. All the clients go to Mr. RealCams. Then, Paul Markham, starts to write in forums that the future is Red Apples, and RealCams should change, because times are changing, and RealCams should stop selling Pears, Apricots, Peachs, as the future is Red Apples.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 21044431)

Can affiliates build, train, teach Western models to create their own sites, traffic, and customers? Some can and they can drive even more traffic to a girls site and make money.

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam (Post 21044836)

I don't buddy :2 cents:

Lot's of startups looking for a new way -- go 4 it.
Put your money on the wood :2 cents:

Look at Periscope and Facetime.
WebRTC & OpenWeb RTC
You are beating a dead horse and don't even know it Paul.

So, we are spending $2 million on a new gTLD registry -- the .cam registry. The money came from our ''know-nothing'' webcam site profits. I am busy with that ATM.

We are waiting (still)
http://stoppornpiracy.com/boards/markham.jpg

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 21045148)

Nothing but negativity and hate. By those who can't do something. That's already happening.

Originally Posted by Bladewire (Post 21045184)

A lot of great info in this thread, read again, some negativity, some joking around. People communicating & sharing is a good thing :thumbsup

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 21045148)

Nothing but negativity and hate. By those who can't do something. That's already happening.

Originally Posted by adultmobile (Post 21045520)

Barry will reply at every troll post, like a bot. But I admit I did laugh at the pics Barry posted. As well as him investing $2 million in .cam tld (really? I just dumped a few .xxx 's I renewed in error).

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam (Post 21044836)

So, we are spending $2 million on a new gTLD registry -- the .cam registry. The money came from our ''know-nothing'' webcam site profits. I am busy with that ATM.