Okay... so let's legalize all drugs, let people jump off bridges and commit suicide, let them cut themselves up, etc. A woman should be able to do what she wants with her body, yes. But not whatever she wants to the little body inside of her.

Good. Thank God you won't be telling me I can't drive SUVs, cut down trees, and eat veal.

Now I just need to work on the others...

you mean the collection of cells inside her body.

yes, let's legalize drugs. Yes, let's let people kill themselves if they want to and they're sane. if somebody wants to cut themselves up they're free to do that as well. Some people derive sexual gratification from it.

if I'm not hurting you, you have no fucking right involving yourself in my affairs.

My concern is with the ethical aspect, and the "right to do with your own body" thing doesn't come into play there because an argument no matter how fiercely and correctly presented does in no way force anyone to do anything.

We have the First Amendment, too, don't forget, so any subject is open to an open and free discussion, including what another person does with their body.

On the other hand, the state can tell people what to do with their bodies: to clear out of an area in the case of a riot or insurrection, to halt one's body long enough to be questioned by an officer, to take up arms and go to war or else go to jail.

This right to do what one wishes with one's body is a slogan, not a constitutional right, and The Constitution is where our legal rights come from.

Eating veal is an exercise in cruelty, and if you can't do without veal or foie gras to help make that not happen then you're so selfish that you're worthless, or you just completely lack empathy. You can drive an SUV if you can afford it, I don't give a fuck. You CANNOT destroy the environment we ALL have to live in just to line your pockets, unless you're sharing the $$.

I would believe your "collection of cells" line if I hadn't seen evidence of a heart beat. Once a heart starts beating you can't argue that a fetus is alive.

The legal "gray area" is over whether that collection of cells enjoys Constitutional protection. Science tells it via DNA that it is a different individual from the mother. Beyond that is the province of the legal system.

except all the instances of messing with another's body that you cite have to do with preventing that person from harming another person. When you're telling a woman she HAS to have a kid, you're stepping into her space and you have no right to be there without being invited.

As you can see by a quick scan of this thread, the other party is indeed stupid.

The basic philosophical justification for abortion is that the womans right to bodily integrity.. not having to host a parasitic organism for 9 months for example.. trumps any "right to life" a zygote, blastocyst, or embryo has.

Not a single person has attempted to deal with that. Its something that many people understand instinctually, and the reason that - at least within 1st trimester limits - the American public overwhelmingly supports legal abortion.

So, lets review. The other side is stupid A. because they can't argue the real issue. B. because they don't realize they cannot win with childish slogans, nasty pictures, and hysterical emotional ranting. and C. Many of them waste a good portion of their lives flagrantly displaying their stupidity in public.

Its like me trying to argue quantum physics by jumping up in the middle of some symposium and shreiking at the top of my lungs that Heisenberg's uncertainty principle should be rejected because I hate it, and, despite not having any real reasons why, I just know I'm right, dammit!

you can make a heart beat in a petri dish. Is it alive?

Is everyone reading this?

Donovon, Unseen, even stocktrader...

Read dig's response to my response. It's comical at best.

don't be screaming for help already :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Whatever you have to believe to keep a clear conscience. No use arguing any further. You believe what you want and I'll believe what I believe. My opinions will never change. Yours likely won't either.

no, yours never will because you get your opinions out of a conservative set of beliefs you're 'supposed' to have. If you people really believed all this shit deep down in your most basic character, you wouldn't be in this business. You just parrot what you hear.

Ok, for anyone who missed it, here's the line of posts I'm talking about. Surely I'm not the only one laughing my ass off.

Some "tyrannical state" can't stop an abortion but it can stop me from eating veal.

Hehe. Ok. If you say so.

Yes, we are living proof

HEY that was my 1,000th post!!! :glugglug

If babies didn't *love* being aborted I'm sure they would complain.

:1orglaugh

I see. So you get to draw all the paralells you'd like, but when I do it back.. its syllogism time.

hahahahahaha

I wasn't drawing a paralell in the first place. Precedent is a valid legal argument. I was simply showing that there is legal precedent for justifying the ending of a life for less than "extreme" purposes.

And your citation for that legalism is? I might add that we can take DNA samples from male sperm, we can invade their psyches with court-ordered psych testing and psychological analysis (people who have not been convicted of any crime, BTW). Besides, if you can order someone to pick up a rifle and risk their lives at war, I find the distinction between inside and outside the body a little frail.

A state can set minimum standards of decent treatment of animals in the food industry, yes.

you have a problem with that Sly? Let's hear it!

it's called RESPECT for your fellow human being and their right to make their own decisions independently of you sticking your big nose in their affairs. you're not particularly intelligent. What makes you think you have a right to make a decision for her?

Shall I dig up some abortion pictures?

Very nice treatment there, oh yes.

Would you really like me to?

I wasn't even going to bring this up because it certainly isn't my main concern or the best argument, but if you're "protesting" "decent treatment of animals"...

yeah Sly, why don't you just go to http://www.armyofgod.com and grab them for us? You can also hit http://www.godhatesfags.com on the way, they have some good pix.

Go hang out with like minded people.

maybe I could dig up some pix of open heart surgery, that's pretty ugly too.

WE SHOULD OUTLAW IT!!!

Quote of the week:
From Sunday, April 1, 2001 A.D. New York Post

Lynne Slepian (Wife of babykilling abortionist Barnett Slepian)
speaking of James Kopp:

" I'd like to see him dead..."
"I'd like to see a slow, painful death ..."

Like the slow, painful death your abortionist husband caused innocent
children when he murdered them? Barnett Slepian caused children to
have a slow, painful death when he used his suction machine to rip
their helpless little bodies all to pieces.
http://www.armyofgod.com

they know how to take care of us babykilling abortionists over there!

That was a pretty ridiculous argument. You think that because I shoot photos of naked girls I can't possibly be against abortion? I don't see the connection. How old are you? That's a serious question.

Does shooting "nudie pics" also mean I'm for legalizing drugs, hugging trees, saving whales, protesting wars, etc?

No... I happen to believe abortion is wrong. It's that simple. I have a little boy that means more to me than anything in the world. I can't fathom why someone would want to do anything to steal the life from another human. I understand fear that some women must have when they find out they're pregnant. I also understand that some people aren't cut out to be a parnent and don't want to be a parent. But I can't understand why someone would want to end human life.

As I said, I won't change my mind. You likely won't change yours. Great! That's the wonderful thing about life... we can disagree.

Sorry dont see how this fits unless you are arguing against Saddam's regime, as no one ordered the ALL VOLUNTEER ARMY FO THE UNITEd STATES, to pickup a rifle... they did that already on thier own decision or did you miss that fact?

A woman has a right to do whatever is best in her situation that she decides, or the fact that we all masturbate killing thousands of potential babies should be illegal too you boneheads.

Ok everyone, this is what "decent treated beings" look like:
http://www.abortiontv.com/images/BabyOnSide.JPG
http://www.abortiontv.com/images/SaltPoison2.gif
http://www.abortiontv.com/images/Fetus-PartialBirth.jpg
http://www.abortiontv.com/images/11WeekAbortion.jpg

But hey, do what you like. Just don't stop me from eating veal.

Think. There is no compelling health reason for someone to eat veal. No one is going to suffer adverse physical and psychological consequences because they don't get their veal.

With abortion, the taking of the life is justified by the fact that the life in question was a parasite which would have caused the mother considerable physical and emotional damage had she been forced to carry it to term.

In other words, for your analogy to be valid, the veal in question would have to be parasitizing some womans body to stay alive.

The State has a compelling interest in protecting the health of its female citizen. It does not have a compelling interest in your veal.

I don't think veal should be illegal, or foie gras for that matter, but the parallel you are trying to draw is absurd.

is that what you're reduced to Sly? you're easier than I thought. How long til we see you standing at the side of the road with one of those pix on a big sign?

go torture some animals.

you shoot nude pix, make sites about fucking and sucking and all that good shit and then you wanna try to come off as a good republican pro-lifer?

I'd say that makes you a hypocrite at best, a schitzophrenic at worst.

The real arguement is what rights does a fetus have? Is it a person, does it have the right to not be killed?

Now there are some people who believe that human life is a precious gift. I'll tell you right now there's no way in hell I would want a girl to have an abortion with my kid. No fucking way.

The pro-death side however does make a compelling case for the fact that some people are completely worthless. Poster children for their own cause.

I killed my dogs tonight. I'm about to throw 'em on the grill. Wanna come over?

I fail to see the correlation between shooting nude pictures and getting an abortion.

Care to explain? I'm stupid, remember?

So all Republicans are pro life? Not. All democrats are pro choice? Wrong again.

Do you think everyone falls into stereotypical categories? What's the highest level of education you've completed? Your ignorance is amazing.

nah, I can't stand lowlifes who are cruel to animals.

a B.A., Einstein. I wouldn't criticize MY intellect if I were you. Pro-lifers have been proven to be 25 i.q. points, seven teeth and two shoes below pro-choicers on average.

And by the way, I'm against the death penalty too.... kinda throws a wrench into your stereotype, now doesn't it?

Great. I didn't really want you coming over anyway.

But hey, I don't consider you a lowlife. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion. No problems here.