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dyna mo 06-22-2016 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galleryseek (Post 20981083)
Let's not get things confused here...

The auto industry didn't up n' leave because they're racist, or they don't like the US. They left because like you already eluded to, it became too fucking expensive.

Why? Because (a) government regulation and (b) unions clinging onto some preconceived notion of how much they *should* be paid.

So instead of blaming (a) and (b), you're going to blame the auto industry? Laughable, if that's the case. And if it is the case, do you run a business? Are you fine with paying employees 2x or 3x the amount that you could have someone else do it for? Personally, I sleep perfectly fucking fine at night with my VA.

completely and absolutely wrong.


detroit worked for several decades for all, and that's including union based wages. auto mismanagement in the wake of fierce foreign competition wiped them out, not high wages.

it's amazing you two are in here trying to argue shit you have no idea about.

onwebcam 06-22-2016 01:29 PM

On the topic of health care. My 20 year old son who was unemployed and uninsured at the time had a motorcycle accident a few months back. It wasn't that bad really primarily serious road rash. He went to the ER. The doctors "believed" he had broken many bones and decided he should undergo a series of body scans. 8 hours later he was sent home with a bag of bandages, ointment and a bill for $30,000+. He will never be able to repay that and I sure the hell won't be so I'm suggesting bankruptcy at 20. BTW they believed he was insured at the time otherwise they wouldn't have done all that they did.

Barry-xlovecam 06-22-2016 01:30 PM

I do very little business in the United States now -- haven't for years. We have offices in the Caribbean, Amsterdam, France and Romania.

I owned a small building contracting company for 13 years.

I have 40 years experience in selling, marketing and business operations.

woj 06-22-2016 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 20981149)
completely and absolutely wrong.


detroit worked for several decades for all, and that's including union based wages. auto mismanagement in the wake of fierce foreign competition wiped them out, not high wages.

it's amazing you two are in here trying to argue shit you have no idea about.

I agree, it went downhill when foreign competition started... at that time instead of getting their shit together, innovating, etc... auto industry lobbyists got the government to enact quotas on imported cars, causing their prices to rise... this allowed incompetence and lack of innovation to continue...

this protection from the government kept the industry alive for a few more decades, until artificially high wages created by unions combined with lack of innovation finally killed off the Detroit auto industry...

so as galleryseek pointed out, the 2 main contributing factors were government involvement (tariffs/quotas) and unions that created artificially high unsustainable wages...

dyna mo 06-22-2016 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj (Post 20981203)
I agree, it went downhill when foreign competition started... at that time instead of getting their shit together, innovating, etc... auto industry lobbyists got the government to enact quotas on imported cars, causing their prices to rise... this allowed incompetence and lack of innovation to continue...

this protection from the government kept the industry alive for a few more decades, until artificially high wages created by unions combined with lack of innovation finally killed off the Detroit auto industry...

that would make sense except you leave out that detroit was working, with union wages. and thriving. it's not fair or accurate to lay the blame of auto manu's failures at the feet of the low guy on the totem pole. the middle class guy screwing the screws didn't screw detroit.

woj 06-22-2016 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 20981221)
that would make sense except you leave out that detroit was working, with union wages. and thriving. it's not fair or accurate to lay the blame of auto manu's failures at the feet of the low guy on the totem pole. the middle class guy screwing the screws didn't screw detroit.

government involvement through quotas/tariffs screwed Detroit... without government involvement Detroit auto industry would have been forced to get their shit together, to lower wages to sustainable levels, to innovate, etc, decades ago...

there would have been the talk: "look guys, we pay you $50/hr (with benefits and other costs)... Japanese pay their guys $30/hr... either you get a pay cut, or we are out of business, we just can't compete by paying you $20/hr more than the competition"... unions and the government involvement prevented this talk from taking place...

Barry-xlovecam 06-22-2016 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 20981149)
completely and absolutely wrong.


detroit worked for several decades for all, and that's including union based wages. auto mismanagement in the wake of fierce foreign competition wiped them out, not high wages.

it's amazing you two are in here trying to argue shit you have no idea about.

Really-- I grew up around the US auto industry and watched it implode and I don't know jack shit about it?

How many people do you know that were involved in the auto industry in America or did you read that bullshit in a book?

GM and Chrysler went bankrupt so they could get out of their debt and union contracts. They were cause and affect. They fucked themselves.

Barry-xlovecam 06-22-2016 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj (Post 20981239)
government involvement through quotas/tariffs screwed Detroit... without government involvement Detroit auto industry would have been forced to get their shit together, to lower wages to sustainable levels, to innovate, etc, decades ago...

there would have been the talk: "look guys, we pay you $50/hr (with benefits and other costs)... Japanese pay their guys $30/hr... either you get a pay cut, or we are out of business, we just can't compete by paying you $20/hr more than the competition"... unions and the government involvement prevented this talk from taking place...

Bullshit -- STRIKE!!! STRIKE!!

Every few years ... UAW workers were unreasonable for years. I think is goes back to the 1920s and 1930s spirit of animosity.

Near the very end the UAW expressed a willingness to compromise -- but only on tier 2 wages and benefits for new hires into the UAW. The Chapter 11 Bankruptcy -- everybody took the loss. Shareholder equity -0- including the workers 401 K money invested back into the company stock, bondholders took a haircut at GM or a loss at Chrysler. The taxpayers invested -- the Treasury did get their money back -- with a profit. Total implosion.

Sad part is US made gasoline autos still lack innovation. Just like a BMW has for less -- the quality is not there. Tesla is innovation. Every one else is playing catch up now. What ever happened to the Hydrogen engine. Cheap oil and big cars again.

Joshua G 06-22-2016 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onwebcam (Post 20981161)
On the topic of health care. My 20 year old son who was unemployed and uninsured at the time had a motorcycle accident a few months back. It wasn't that bad really primarily serious road rash. He went to the ER. The doctors "believed" he had broken many bones and decided he should undergo a series of body scans. 8 hours later he was sent home with a bag of bandages, ointment and a bill for $30,000+. He will never be able to repay that and I sure the hell won't be so I'm suggesting bankruptcy at 20. BTW they believed he was insured at the time otherwise they wouldn't have done all that they did.

despite my right-of-center leanings, i believe in single payer exactly because of this...healthcare is defacto a monopoly/oligopoly model, with pointless financing mechanisms like insurers & them making profits for bankrolling a severely price gouged procedure, or drug, just absurd to let the private sector ransack a persons health needs with giant profits. our health system is like the cable TV model on steroids.

one of my big obama letdowns was when he never fought for the public option. shameful, & it was democrats that killed it in the senate...max baucus, specifically.

...gotta get to single payer, with a private mechanism for moneyed people that can pay for primo care.

:2 cents:

Joshua G 06-22-2016 02:35 PM

hey OP...

why do you oppose trump when his #2 issue, behind the wall, is ADDING MORE REGULATIONS, AKA ROLLING BACK FREE TRADE, TO PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS!!!!

bueller? bueller? bueller???

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

CaptainHowdy 06-22-2016 02:39 PM

Fiddy expensive water bottles ...

Quine 06-22-2016 02:46 PM

Tough Luck

Quote:

"What if a poor person gets sick, doesn't have insurance, and can't get friends, family, or charity to pay for treatment?"

"What if an elderly person gets defrauded out of his entire retirement and the perpetrator vanishes into thin air?"

"What if a child is starving on the street, and no one voluntarily feeds him?"

"What if someone just can't find a job?"

If you're a libertarian, you face what-ifs like this all the time. The point, normally, is to make you say, "Tough luck" and look like a monster. What puzzles me, though, is why libertarians rarely ask analogous questions. Like:

"What if Congress passes an unjust law, the President signs it, and the Supreme Court upholds it?"

"What if the government conscripts you to fight in an unjust war, and you die a horrible death?"

"What if a poor person drinks and gambles away his welfare check?"

"What if the government denies you permission to legally work?"

"What if the President decides your ethnicity is a national security risk and puts you in a concentration camp, and the Supreme Court declares his action constitutional?"

"What if a person lives an extremely unhealthy lifestyle, so by the time they're retired, they're in constant pain no matter how generous their Medicare coverage is?"

"What happens if a President lies to start a war, and voters don't particularly care?"

Once you start the what-if game, it's hard to stop. Name any political system. I can generate endless hypotheticals to aggravate its supporters. The right lesson to draw: Every political perspective eventually has to say "Tough luck" when confronted with well-crafted what-ifs. There's nothing uniquely hard-hearted or cruel about libertarianism. Defenders of democracy, nationalism, liberalism, conservatism, the American Constitution, and social democracy all eventually sigh, "Life's not fair," or "Well, what do you want me to do about it?"

The obvious reply is that some of these hypotheticals are more realistic than others. But that puts the critics of libertarianism on extremely thin ice. None of my alternate what-ifs are fanciful. Several of them - lethal conscription, unhealthy lifestyles, denying foreigners the right to work, mendacious wars - have happened or continue to happen on a massive scale in the most democratic nations on earth. In contrast, we've never seen a rich, modern, libertarian society. For all we know, private charity in Libertopia would more than suffice to end absolute poverty. Stranger things have happened.

Why the double standard? The root, I suspect, is status quo bias. Most people tolerate the unpleasant ramifications of the status quo because they're used to them. You might get conscripted and die a horrible death? Oh well, that's life. Most people won't tolerate the unpleasant ramifications of libertarianism because they're used to a world where government says, "We'll never let that happen." But what's so great about that assurance, when it's bundled with a long list of other evils that governments blithely tolerate - or actively commit on a grand scale every day?


onwebcam 06-22-2016 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua G (Post 20981323)
despite my right-of-center leanings, i believe in single payer exactly because of this...healthcare is defacto a monopoly/oligopoly model, with pointless financing mechanisms like insurers & them making profits for bankrolling a severely price gouged procedure, or drug, just absurd to let the private sector ransack a persons health needs with giant profits. our health system is like the cable TV model on steroids.

one of my big obama letdowns was when he never fought for the public option. shameful, & it was democrats that killed it in the senate...max baucus, specifically.

...gotta get to single payer, with a private mechanism for moneyed people that can pay for primo care.

:2 cents:


Icing on the cake is he had just had his whole income tax return ate up by Obama care fines. I think the fines will eventually be the nail in the coffin for it. At his age health insurance was the last thing on my mind. The company he worked for last year actually provided insurance but he missed the deadline for signing up for it so he went without it all year. Lost his job around the first of the year, hit with Obama fines and a $30,000 hospital bill. Needless to say he's not a fan of Obamacare.

crockett 06-22-2016 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon (Post 20980363)
no, worse..much worse. think no electricity, no running water, no garbage collection no services whatsoever.

i hate paying for leeches as much as anyone and i would love it if everyone would pay their own way as it should be but its just never going to happen and if we don't take care of these losers to some degree we will end up in even worse shit, in my opinion.

This is,why libertarianism is a fairytale. If you want to look at what happens when the people have to take care of themselves and the govt does nothing.. Go visit Somalia..

ITraffic 06-22-2016 05:18 PM

adapt or die.

poncabare 06-22-2016 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiamiBoyz (Post 20979610)
Take care of yourself and your own and don't expect the government or anyone else to give a fuck.

wouldnt this be nice

Bladewire 06-22-2016 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy (Post 20981365)
Fiddy expensive water bottles ...

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

crockett 06-22-2016 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poncabare (Post 20981779)
wouldnt this be nice

It's easy to say take care of yourself until you find your self in a flipped over car all mangled up waiting on someone to help you..

TCLGirls 06-22-2016 08:51 PM

Ask galleryseek, the self avowed anarchist, what he thinks about privatized police. Then ask him how he proposes to prevent aggression against those who cannot afford the privatized police. Then watch him disappear.

https://gfy.com/20633759-post57.html

Paul Markham 06-23-2016 02:02 AM

Was the person charged a taxpayer?

Income tax, State Tax, sales tax, fuel tax, etc?

In the rest of the educated world, he would have been given the treatment free, even if a migrant. Because it's cheaper n the long run and saves lives.

Only the US has a system so stupid that it makes things worse for ordinary people. To make a tiny percent very rich.

Relic 07-12-2016 08:31 PM

Does your vehicle home smell?

crockett 07-12-2016 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relic (Post 21028258)
Does your vehicle home smell?

Ahh look, I made a fake nick cry... :1orglaugh


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