wind is over rated. i am originally from chatham kent which has the most wind turbines anywhere in canada and i'd say a good 40% of the time they aren't even moving. not to mention there is a ton of waste and energy used by countries who do not use green power in making these huge things. on top of all that you have the issue with stray electricity which is very dangerous and will become more of an issue as time goes on and the lines eventually rot. also, the idea that the turbines push warm air down making the average temperature even higher...you can go on and on. its not ideal, its far from perfect and in my opinion the current way its done will be antiquated in 10-15 years from now making all those turbines essentially obsolete.

if ontario wants everyone to use electric they need to reduce rates to pre 2006 levels but of course that will never happen. rates will only continue to rise as there is so much work that still needs to be done to the infrastructure to prevent another 2003 blackout from happening aside from pockets needing to be filled.

Follow the money...it is the root.

They should have never pushed this renewable energy until they had the capability of storing it. As it is now they have so much excess power they have to pay Quebec and the US to take it. Or pay wind turbine owners to turn them off. What a joke.

That sounds about right. I don't know for sure but I think I read that the average time a turbine generates electricity is only around 35%.

You probably can't be perfectly green to make these things. You need steel, plastic, etc to build it, you need diesel-powered land equipment like tractors to dig, plant, etc. But then again that is short-term.

What is stray electricity? I never heard that term before.

Ontario pays more for electricity than any other location in North America. That's so crazy. I hope someone finds a way to reduce the cost.

Bingo.

Ontario projects steady rise in electricity costs for next 20 years


From the comments for that article:


But hey, we are all supposed to feel good about it because it's "green".



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Wind Power in Ontario

Last Hour's Output
128 MW at 8:00 a.m.

This Hour's Forecast
178 MW at 9:00 a.m.



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Well, that settles it then. You've executed the script perfectly. Well done.

But in reality nothing is "causing" climate change because climate change is a feature of the planet and not a symptom of something. The idiots that push this nonsense have co-opted the term for a natural feature of the planet and turned it into a propaganda mechanism. They've actually got the ignorant masses believing that this is something that can and should be stopped. They might as well say that we have to stop the tides because they flood coastlines all around the world twice a day.





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To make it really a libby dreamland they need to import at least a couple of million poor sweet immigrants from the middle east. That will really make all the hippies cheer, proud of being such a progressive and tolerant community. The first few weeks. Until jewish shops are getting smashed into pieces *, rocks and fires obliterate cars * and women get group molested *.



*) all actual results of Europes mass immigration / country destruction plan of the past 50 years.

check this shit out, was gonna post a thread about it, but forgot,

these guys are moving forward on a 50Mw storage solution. this scales!

That's pretty interesting but what is the net effect on the price of energy derived from these things when you factor in the energy cost of pulling them uphill?



.

ARES’ cost is approximately 60% of an equivalent power pumped - hydro facility.

ARES has the lowest annualized capacity cost per kW of comparable
technologies.

an ARES facility is able perform a round-trip regulation Reg-Up/Reg-Down command at over an 86% operating efficiency.


Electricity and Power Storage - Ares North America

do you use this Handbook yourself?

Electricity boss emailed climate change skeptic book to hundreds - abc.net.au

'Electricity boss emailed climate change skeptic book to hundreds'

Here is some more:

Kevin Libin: Ontario?s big, green assisted economic suicide plan

The mind - it boggles. These people seem to be prepared to start us down a Venezuelan style collapse of the economy. And all to try and get rid of a gas that greens the planet.

:Oh crap



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Are you suggesting we do nothing and head even faster for Armageddon?

We can slow it down. Mass population reductions say one child per couple for the next 200 years. Including families in the less educated parts of the world. Less food aid to poor countries, if their piece of dirt can't support them. Tough.

Petrol and other fuels double in price. This would have to include most consumables so we slow down on the production of everything and live a simpler life.

Back in the real world none of that will be done until it's too late and people will be screaming why wasn't it done.

The first commodity shortage that will hit the West. Will be water. The Third World is already finding it scarcer.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/pics...vilization.jpg

And before you say "It's happened before and we're still here."

http://energyskeptic.com/wp-content/...ut-history.jpg

99.999% of Humans are fucked if we don't go back the kind of existence the Earth can sustain during hard times. Climate change killed the Neanderthals and a lot of other species, a million Humans got through it.

An interesting read:

The Fable of a Stable Climate



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good points markham. ontario would be better served to implement population control instead of freezing to death little old ladies.

Nice chart. Notice that each of the previous four interglacials were warmer than we are now.

I am not saying we do nothing. I am saying we stop spending trillions trying to reduce to CO2 because CO2 is not the problem. Period.

Those triilions of dollars could be better spent addressing real problems. But nope, the real problems will continue and we will have wasted trillions of dollars and ruined all of our economies and have nothing to show for it.

Brilliant plan.


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the most ironic thing about this...its not going to reduce usage of natural gas. since ontario uses natural gas as backup for electricity more gas plants will need to be built to support more usage of electricity.

Man made pollution is contributing. For every one scientist who denies that there are 50 who say otherwise.

The debate should be moving on to, can we slow it down without going back to the Stone Age existence, can we prepare for it with science to produce more food and water to save more than 1 person in every 100,000?

The Third World is fucked. Even the Second World will find it tough. America won't be able to grow enough crops and find enough water to feed the 324,118,787 people it has.

Maybe a few of the youngest here will see the start. By 2500. The world will be a very different place. Simply because 7,432,663,275 are consuming the resources of a planet incapable of sustaining that number. When the climate change reaches its peak, the Earth may only be capable of sustaining a few million. Unless there are radical plans put into place.

And we don't have WW3.

So keep arguing about whether you should burn less gas or coal. It keeps the plabs away from the real debate.

Without Africa, Asia, Americas and Europe joining in. It's pointless.

No dude. Ontario is being reamed with extremely high electric bills. Going green is a good thing, but what has to be done is to find a way to lower the cost for you. No one will want to go green and pay so much for it.


There is lots of evidence from places such as Nasa, that this is not true.

I will prove it to you.

Earlier you said that plants love CO2, right? Right. This is true. Trees and other plants absorb CO2, where it gets pushed into the ground over time. Right on this so far, right? Right.

Oil is made up mostly of plant life. Yes it contains dinosaur bits but its mostly plants over millions of years. When we burn oil, that CO2 gets released back into the atmosphere.

Still right? Ok.

The problem we have today, put simply is this : Too much CO2, and not enough trees and plans to soak it all up. We are producing more CO2 than the earth's natural ability to absorb it. It is an imbalance. Right here is the basic, main issue my friend.

There are plenty of ways to store energy now. You can store it in batteries, and other methods.

That is really cool! Smart thinking.


D'oh! Hahahaha... nice find.

So you are saying that climate change is not a natural and continuous process of earth? Seriously? If you say you are serious to that I will put you on ignore and never address you again because you are beyond hope.


There you go talking down again and speaking to me like I'm a two year old. Do you talk to people like this in real life? If so do you get punched in the face a lot?

Anyways, you prove nothing and that is not the main issue. The main issue is that releasing that CO2 back into the atmosphere, where all of it used to be, is harmless and is not causing any of the problems that people claim it is. 8000ppm or more of CO2 were in the air at one time and the only thing that happened was that life flourished and thrived. What the hell do you have against thriving life?

If not for us the earth would continue to sequester CO2 until there was not enough left for plants to photosynthesize and most life on earth would end. We are still actually uncomfortably close to that threshold - 150ppm. And because CO2 will continue to be sequestered deep in the oceans we will have to keep releasing CO2 from bio-matter and fossil fuels just to keep levels up high to ensure vigourous plant growth.

Again there is no such thing as too much CO2 in this context.

You need to go study some geology and paleoclimate.



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No that is not at all what I said, and that is not at all what Nasa says.

http://climate.nasa.gov/
Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet: Carbon Dioxide
http://climate.nasa.gov/causes/



No dude, I promise I am not talking down to you. You have insulted me plenty in this thread, but I have not tried to insult you back or talk down to you. What I was trying to do was establish an agreement baseline, that is all.

But Eon, you are forgetting a couple of things.

Let's say that you are right, and we are putting the CO2 back into the air, where it "used to be".

What you are forgetting is:

There are less trees and green plants than there used to be. Deforestation has slowed down the earth ability to absorb all that CO2.

Next, we are putting more CO2 into the air faster than it has ever been done before, naturally.

We know this is a fact because we can measure the amount of CO2 and other greenhouse gasses. We know they rise high into the atmosphere, and we know they reflect heat. We can see the evidence of this by the rising average temperature of the earth.

The earth has been alive and well for a long time, but that's not the point. The point is to make our time on this planet as healthy and beautiful as it can be, and that we leave it this way for our kids and grand kids.

This idea should not be so hard to grasp or hard to do. All it takes is a minor shift in the way we use energy, thats all.


The ocean is a whole other can of worms. The oceans have become much more acidic over the past 100 years or so thanks to increased CO2. The extra CO2 is not just warming the planet, its killing the oceans. And the warming of the oceans, while related, is a whole other problem.

What a mess.


Same to you.

its stray voltage actually. check out this video if you like. gives a quick summary of what it is and whats going on with it.

Wind Rush: Stray Voltage? - Doc Zone

Deforestation is the problem. Not CO2. Stop cutting down forests to plant crops to be used as biofuels to reduce CO2.

I can't understand how a supposedly intelligent guy like yourself does not see the lunacy inherent in some of the positions you support.

Not true at all.

CO2 does not have an infinite capacity to absorb and re-emit radiation. It has already maxed out the amount it can absorb. Adding more to the atmosphere will have zero effect.


Yes lets leave them with destroyed economies, unreliable and unnafordable energy and no chance for a financially secure and stable future because we destroyed all of that trying to get rid of a harmless trace gas.

Makes sense.


The oceans are not acidic they are alkaline. A slight decrease in alkalinity does not make them acidic. And no CO2 is not killing the oceans. And if the oceans are warming as much as you say then they will be out-gassing CO2 and not absorbing it. In fact the oceans may very well the source of much of the "excess" CO2 you worry about since it has been proven then rising CO2 follows rising temperatures, not the other way around.


I have studied geology and climate - in university. And I've been closely following both sides of this debate since then - not just one side like yourself.


Anyways, I am done with this topic with you. It's a waste of time and I don't have time to waste. You can get the last word in if you like but I'm certain it will just be more of the same.

This thread was supposed to be about the suicidal economic policy on Ontario based on bad science and not the bad science itself.



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This guy is trolling for sure..... Him and the Republican, climate change deniers ...

Please tell that to the Ontario government so they can stop paying other provinces and the US to take our excess power. That is entirely the problem. The Ontario grid has no way of storing any energy generated by wind or solar. If they generate too much they have to find ways of getting rid of it, or by paying wind turbine owners to idle their turbines. If their system could store it we probably wouldn't be in such a mess.

In fact I haven't heard any plans from the government on if they're even looking into implementing storage methods. At this point they're just happy to continue increasing our rates to pay for their broken system.

Exactly.

And still I see convoys of flatbed trucks hauling wind turbine tower segments outta Port Weller where they're being mass-produced. They've built a massive production facility along the Welland Canal near Lock 1. And the turbines are blocking out the sky just to the immediate west of us along Lake Erie. Too many to count.

And they all look like this right?

http://www.connectpositronic.com/wp-...51-664x456.jpg

Big business decided to use that design. Huge poles and generators way at the top and really only work best when wind blows in 2 specific directions.

Think of a blender and shape of it. Twist the blades from top to bottom and then make that 20 feet tall. Put the generator at the bottom. Fucker would collect wind from every direction and access to the power supply is on ground level. Nah... they won't do that because too much money is in developing those airplane propellers.

Could take 10% of energy reserve for the canooks and make it 50% in a jiffy.

No, BOTH are the problem. We are pumping way too much greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere, and there is not enough trees and plants to absorb it.

Agreed! Cutting forests to make farms is ridiculous, and biofuels never made sense to me either. See dude? We can agree on some things.

More insults? Eon you have insulted and jabbed at me about 10 times in this thread, and again I never once took a jab back at you. Come on man...



Greenhouse Gas Emissions: Causes & Sources


No one wants that, but of course that is a part of the challenge. How do you move the world off of dangerous and polluting forms of energy to a cleaner source of energy without disrupting the economy? It's a problem that only people smarter than you and me can figure out, but it doesn't stop us from speculating and coming up with new ideas.



What is Ocean Acidification?




From the same article at What is Ocean Acidification?


I see what you are trying to say but I think you are forgetting something. The ocean naturally absorbs some CO2, and maybe releases some too I'm not sure. The natural cycle adds and removes CO2 to keep a balance; humans add extra CO2 without removing any. This my friend is the basic source of the problem.


It's very cool that you have studied that. I am impressed. I don't think its fair for you to call me one-sided though. As I've said in the past, I think getting rid of fossil fuels is impossible, and probably unnecessary. All I want to see is better use of energy. Driving and heating with electrons instead of carbon molecuels *where possible* makes lots of sense to me. That my friend Eon, is my base belief, nothing more.


Again, you don't need to be insulting, and this time does not need to be a waste. Talking about subjects like these is a good excuse to research and learn about new things. I encourage you do do this too.

The science isn't bad - its the policy thats bad, and they should know it. They shouldn't try to push electricity down peoples throats, especially when its so expensive in Ontario. They should get the price down and get people to WANT to switch.

I'm done too on the subject. I enjoyed talking to you about it. Please don't insult me anymore, ok? It's uncalled for. Hand-shake?

This is why the planet will undergo a huge climate change, killing 99.999% of humans. Saving more would mean people living a little less affluently.

When plants and the herbivores that feed off them are dying. Food will skyrocket in price. Water will either be up to our necks because the ice caps have melted or as scarce as fine wine and cost as much.

All because it costs too much to go green or build huge safe guards. .

lol a little less affluently? you do realize poor people need electricity too. i know people who work for ontario welfare and they constantly have people calling who can't pay their bills and need the government to bail them out. this will only make it worse. most people live paycheck to paycheck and are not affluent.

You're missing the point. Poor people, the ill, infirm, etc. Are Fucked.

The world is doing what it has done for the last billion or so years. It's evolving and changing its climate.

It was only due to climate change that we humans evolved, walked out of Africa, don't compete with Neanderthals, see sabre tooth tigers, giant sloths, megafauna, etc. Roaming the countryside. Read this.

It's already happening now.

Water has to be the key element, assuming we don't gas ourselves to death first. Should that drop too low, crops fail people die in millions or billions? Should it rise too high, fields are swamped.

Can 7 billion survive that? NO.

Can some live off the sea? Yes, but only a select few. Which I'm sure is already being planned for the very rich and powerful.

I give it 100 years before the shit that's hitting the fan now starts to bounce back.

Now everyone can keep debating whether they will be able to afford to fill a gas guzzler, or keep the heating on.

What's your point? I know it can be done. The point is our government has not done this and doesn't appear to have any plans in works to do so.

So their retarded system has resulted in us having the highest and fastest growing electricuty costs in all of North America. People are already struggling to pay their hydro bills and now they want to force us to heat with it as well. And rates are set to continue to rise. The problem is not renewable energy but an incompetent government who act to save the environment before planning things correctly. They offer ridiculous subsidies to wind and solar generators when they should have had a system in place to store the energy before doing anything.

I've got a solar panel in my back yard that's probably the size of your house. I'm all for green enetgy. Unfortunately I need the revenue from it to pay my massive hydro bills because the whole system is fucked and looks like things will continue to get worse.

It is already bouncing back, as i dont remember seeing snow ever in late may in 31 years of my life.

i agree that it *could* happen but in the timeline you are talking about 100 years is nothing. it could easily be 1000-5000 years before anything major happens that will really take a chunk of the population out. regardless, this kind of climate change is really completely out of our control. sure we can do things that *might* slow it down but the reality is the earth is going to do what its going to do with or without us. for now im focused on the near future rather than that may happen in the distant.

Electricity bills will be the last of your problems. Affording food will come top of the list. In 2216.

Until then keep worrying about minor issues of fuel costs going up to slow down the process. By a few days.

People. This isn't something that can be stopped. It can be slowed down, we can even prepare for it. The costs are going to be huge. And probably more than most can afford.

https://www.google.cz/webhp?hl=en&gw...d+water+crisis

This is just the start. The problem is climate change and population increases. As I said give it 100 years. The younger ones will see it going pear shaped in 50 years.

Why are you blathering on about what might happen in 100 years. This thread is about the Ontario government fucking over its citizens today. They are making it impossible for people to survive TODAY.