Important Notice: Denial and Deception - GoFuckYourself.com

JeremySF · 03-24-2003, 12:38 PM

Does anybody know what "denial and deception" is?

Has it dawned on people how plausible it is for Iraq to purposely make a cement factory look like chemical weapons plant? It's a typical D&D tactic they use. Deny they have something, then make something look like something else, to trick the allies to make them look stupid. Meanwhile, they deflect attantion from the real source of their chemical weapons program.

angeleyes · 03-24-2003, 12:39 PM

I think you think a little too hard.

..but I guess anything is possible. I just don't give his regime that much credit.

directfiesta · 03-24-2003, 12:41 PM

No, but I heard of: "deception,denial and deception" ...

Sly_RJ · 03-24-2003, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by angeleyes
I think you think a little too hard. ..but I guess anything is possible. I just don't give his regime that much credit.

Neither do I.

But, if the liberals get their conspiracy theories, so do we.

JeremySF · 03-24-2003, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sly_RJ

Neither do I.

But, if the liberals get their conspiracy theories, so do we.

Except this is no conspiracy theory. It's common practice in the Muslim world. I'm not saying one way or the other that they did it with the cement factory, but Arab countries are very good when it comes to PR.

There are also reports that Iraq has British and American uniforms that they might dress their soldiers in only to go kill their own civilians so that they can broadcast on t.v. to win the propaganda war. This was actually reported on NPR this morning. Hardly the home of rightwing conspiracies.

Don't underestimate the Arabs when it comes to propaganda. They are masters at propaganda.

directfiesta · 03-24-2003, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JeremySF

morning. Hardly the home of rightwing conspiracies.

Don't underestimate the Arabs when it comes to propaganda. They are masters at propaganda.

Don't underestimate anybody at war: all means are good!

eRock · 03-24-2003, 12:52 PM

Well, no ever said Saddam is stupid. He's a very smart man, but the again so are some of the top criminals in the world.

JeremySF · 03-24-2003, 01:31 PM

Definition of D&D:

Denial is what it says it is. It's attempts to deny your adversary key information either about your military forces, your leadership, the status of your country, the effect of the adversary's campaign on your country, on its infrastructure, et cetera, et cetera. And there are a lot of ways that that can be done, from the simplest, such as hiding in caves, as we've seen now, to erecting false buildings et cetera to conceal or hide information from intelligence or otherwise.

Deception is slightly different. That's -- if you look at denial as what we would call hiding the real, deception is showing the fake. Okay? That means actually generating, in your classic case, inflatable aircraft or tanks, and again, this goes back to ancient times. Very prolific in World War II. Again, we saw both the Iraqis and the Serbs, who were schooled by the Soviets, fairly advanced deception techniques.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct2...1_t1024dd.html

chupacabra · 03-24-2003, 01:35 PM

Quote:

It's a typical D&D tactic they use. Deny they have something, then make something look like something else, to trick the allies to make them look stupid. Meanwhile, they deflect attantion from the real source of their chemical weapons program.

i think thats grasping a bit... *show me* the WMD, until then its all supposition... they better find some soon..

Sly_RJ · 03-24-2003, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JeremySF

There are also reports that Iraq has British and American uniforms that they might dress their soldiers in only to go kill their own civilians so that they can broadcast on t.v. to win the propaganda war. This was actually reported on NPR this morning.

I'm pretty sure this is already happening. Think of all the free uniforms they get after they capture and execute our boys.

Sometimes I wish we could treat their soldiers as they treat ours. But then, I'm glad we don't.

Always the bad guy. Always.

JeremySF · 03-24-2003, 02:23 PM

Examples of D&D:

The United States, for example, was accused by the Iraqis of desecrating Muslim holy sites. The Iraqi press and government frequently referred to secret Israeli involvement in the operations.

They frequently tried to show that the U.S. bombing campaign was ineffective, that it was deliberately destroying civilian sites; that there were children who were being killed and maimed and affected by the embargo. And there's, of course, an ongoing campaign to this very day.

Perhaps one of the classic examples, for those of you who may not be aware, but there's the famous parade of children that's held in Baghdad quite frequently where they bring out, on top of cars, coffins of children that they claim have been killed as a result of the embargo, or the presence of depleted uranium, et cetera, et cetera. And we've seen on several occasions the same picture of the same child reappearing in some of these parades. That's not to say that some may indeed have been killed in the course of the campaign, but again, it's a classic technique of playing to public sympathy for purposes that suit the government.

In Serbia, we saw some even more dramatic examples of denial and deception. And again, I have to refer to -- again, an unfortunate incident, which was the accidental NATO airstrike on the Djakovica refugee column. Those of you, again, who are familiar with this, there's the famous baby doll story. There were numerous bodies; the Serb brought the media there, and there was, of course, right in the middle of the photo opportunity a blood-stained doll, that in subsequent occasions appeared at other incidents of massacres, et cetera. Again, that's not to say that people weren't killed, et cetera, but that there was a deliberate attempt to stage the environment to magnify the effect, again for the purposes of denying or deceiving or enhancing the effect for political propaganda purposes.

The Serbs also were quite good at posting this kind of material on the Internet. This was a new phenomena that we're seeing now and expect to continue to see in world crises in the 21st century, where we have a new form of media that can instantly transmit information, whether it's correct or not. And, of course, that has a very dangerous dimension to it.

Another popular technique that we've already seen in Afghanistan, and I'm sure we'll continue to see, and we saw in Serbia, are these arranged tours at hospitals, where you'll be taken in to see those severely maimed and wounded. And often statements are given that are meant to have a very profound psychological effect not just on you, the media, or the civilian population, but also on our military forces.

There was a case in Serbia where a woman who had lost her leg said in the interview statement, "Greetings to the German pilots who did this to me. They're the ones who made me a cripple." So there's an attempt to reach out and I think impact the morale.

And again, this is classic military technique. If you put it in a military context, it's meant to have an effect on the adversary. We're already seen several tours of Afghani hospitals, et cetera, and we expect that to continue.

Let me turn to the slides and try and be a little more exact for you in terms of what within the Department of Defense we actually mean by denial and deception, what our precise definitions are and how we can translate that into actual cases, and then I'll give you some concrete examples at the very end of the briefing from the current situation.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct2...1_t1024dd.html

Rocky · 03-24-2003, 02:42 PM

Denial And Deception

-------------------------------
Newsweek magazine published an article discussing the viruses, poisons and gases that the U.S. sent to Saddam Hussein in the mid-1980s. At that time, the U.S. regarded Iraq as a potential ally against Iran's Ayatollah Khomeni.

"In the 1980s, the Ayatollah Khomeni was America's sworn enemy, and the U.S. government courted Saddam Hussein in an effort to undermine the Ayatollah and Iran. Today, Saddam Hussein is America's biggest enemy, and the U.S. is said to be making overtures to Iran."
---------------------------------

Saddam Hussein was, is and will always be a monster.

So if he was a monster back when he was funded and supported, what does that say about the people who are now saying that the same monster they assisted needs to be destroyed?

JeremySF · 03-24-2003, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rocky
Denial And Deception

-------------------------------
Newsweek magazine published an article discussing the viruses, poisons and gases that the U.S. sent to Saddam Hussein in the mid-1980s. At that time, the U.S. regarded Iraq as a potential ally against Iran's Ayatollah Khomeni.

"In the 1980s, the Ayatollah Khomeni was America's sworn enemy, and the U.S. government courted Saddam Hussein in an effort to undermine the Ayatollah and Iran. Today, Saddam Hussein is America's biggest enemy, and the U.S. is said to be making overtures to Iran."
---------------------------------

Saddam Hussein was, is and will always be a monster.

So if he was a monster back when he was funded and supported, what does that say about the people who are now saying that the same monster they assisted needs to be destroyed?

hmm...considering Germany, Russia and France all supplied the Iraqis with more than the U.S., the better question would be, "what does it say about them?" At least we're taking responsbility for the problem.

When we supplied Iraq with weapons, it was a very different world. Iran was sponsoring terrorism against us. That had taken over our embassy (and taken hostages). They were (and are) religious fanatics. Iraq was their enemy. Is it any surprise the West supported the enemy of Iran?

The Northern Alliance were hardly comprised of choir boys, but they were a lot better than the Taliban.

Welcome to Geopolitics. Now go home!

Rocky · 03-24-2003, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JeremySF

When we supplied Iraq with weapons, it was a very different world. Iran was sponsoring terrorism against us. That had taken over our embassy (and taken hostages). They were (and are) religious fanatics. Iraq was their enemy. Is it any surprise the West supported the enemy of Iran?

The Northern Alliance were hardly comprised of choir boys, but they were a lot better than the Taliban.

Welcome to Geopolitics. Now go home!

standard lesser of two evils response

JeremySF · 03-24-2003, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rocky

standard lesser of two evils response

Hmmmm.....in WWII the Russians were our allies. Stalin, one of the most brutal dictators lead Russia. Yet no one ever complains about the Allies aligning themselves with Russia. Because sometimes the pragmatic superscedes the ideological.

By your argument, we should have just turned a blind eye to Stalin's atrocities. Right? By your argument we should have never tried attempted to eliminate communism.

Huh?

03-24-2003, 12:38 PM	#1
JeremySF Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 1,236	Important Notice: Denial and Deception Does anybody know what "denial and deception" is? Has it dawned on people how plausible it is for Iraq to purposely make a cement factory look like chemical weapons plant? It's a typical D&D tactic they use. Deny they have something, then make something look like something else, to trick the allies to make them look stupid. Meanwhile, they deflect attantion from the real source of their chemical weapons program. __________________ ICQ: 176050593 / AIM: JerSF2000 "Love is the answer - but while you're waiting for the answer sex raises some pretty good questions." ---------------------------------------------

03-24-2003, 12:39 PM	#2
angeleyes Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Wandering around FL using random Wireless Connections Posts: 3,584	I think you think a little too hard. ..but I guess anything is possible. I just don't give his regime that much credit. __________________ Need a Writer? Contact Me. I write quality descriptions, short erotic stories, quality one-liners.. whatever you need.

03-24-2003, 12:41 PM	#3
directfiesta Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 29,679	No, but I heard of: "deception,denial and deception" ... __________________ I know that Asspimple is stoopid ... As he says, it is a FACT ! But I can't figure out how he can breathe or type , at the same time ....

03-24-2003, 12:52 PM	#7
eRock Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Chi-town Posts: 3,112	Well, no ever said Saddam is stupid. He's a very smart man, but the again so are some of the top criminals in the world. __________________ Swiftwill Hosting

03-24-2003, 01:31 PM	#8
JeremySF Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 1,236	Definition of D&D: Denial is what it says it is. It's attempts to deny your adversary key information either about your military forces, your leadership, the status of your country, the effect of the adversary's campaign on your country, on its infrastructure, et cetera, et cetera. And there are a lot of ways that that can be done, from the simplest, such as hiding in caves, as we've seen now, to erecting false buildings et cetera to conceal or hide information from intelligence or otherwise. Deception is slightly different. That's -- if you look at denial as what we would call hiding the real, deception is showing the fake. Okay? That means actually generating, in your classic case, inflatable aircraft or tanks, and again, this goes back to ancient times. Very prolific in World War II. Again, we saw both the Iraqis and the Serbs, who were schooled by the Soviets, fairly advanced deception techniques. http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct2...1_t1024dd.html __________________ ICQ: 176050593 / AIM: JerSF2000 "Love is the answer - but while you're waiting for the answer sex raises some pretty good questions." ---------------------------------------------

03-24-2003, 02:23 PM	#11
JeremySF Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 1,236	Examples of D&D: The United States, for example, was accused by the Iraqis of desecrating Muslim holy sites. The Iraqi press and government frequently referred to secret Israeli involvement in the operations. They frequently tried to show that the U.S. bombing campaign was ineffective, that it was deliberately destroying civilian sites; that there were children who were being killed and maimed and affected by the embargo. And there's, of course, an ongoing campaign to this very day. Perhaps one of the classic examples, for those of you who may not be aware, but there's the famous parade of children that's held in Baghdad quite frequently where they bring out, on top of cars, coffins of children that they claim have been killed as a result of the embargo, or the presence of depleted uranium, et cetera, et cetera. And we've seen on several occasions the same picture of the same child reappearing in some of these parades. That's not to say that some may indeed have been killed in the course of the campaign, but again, it's a classic technique of playing to public sympathy for purposes that suit the government. In Serbia, we saw some even more dramatic examples of denial and deception. And again, I have to refer to -- again, an unfortunate incident, which was the accidental NATO airstrike on the Djakovica refugee column. Those of you, again, who are familiar with this, there's the famous baby doll story. There were numerous bodies; the Serb brought the media there, and there was, of course, right in the middle of the photo opportunity a blood-stained doll, that in subsequent occasions appeared at other incidents of massacres, et cetera. Again, that's not to say that people weren't killed, et cetera, but that there was a deliberate attempt to stage the environment to magnify the effect, again for the purposes of denying or deceiving or enhancing the effect for political propaganda purposes. The Serbs also were quite good at posting this kind of material on the Internet. This was a new phenomena that we're seeing now and expect to continue to see in world crises in the 21st century, where we have a new form of media that can instantly transmit information, whether it's correct or not. And, of course, that has a very dangerous dimension to it. Another popular technique that we've already seen in Afghanistan, and I'm sure we'll continue to see, and we saw in Serbia, are these arranged tours at hospitals, where you'll be taken in to see those severely maimed and wounded. And often statements are given that are meant to have a very profound psychological effect not just on you, the media, or the civilian population, but also on our military forces. There was a case in Serbia where a woman who had lost her leg said in the interview statement, "Greetings to the German pilots who did this to me. They're the ones who made me a cripple." So there's an attempt to reach out and I think impact the morale. And again, this is classic military technique. If you put it in a military context, it's meant to have an effect on the adversary. We're already seen several tours of Afghani hospitals, et cetera, and we expect that to continue. Let me turn to the slides and try and be a little more exact for you in terms of what within the Department of Defense we actually mean by denial and deception, what our precise definitions are and how we can translate that into actual cases, and then I'll give you some concrete examples at the very end of the briefing from the current situation. http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct2...1_t1024dd.html __________________ ICQ: 176050593 / AIM: JerSF2000 "Love is the answer - but while you're waiting for the answer sex raises some pretty good questions." ---------------------------------------------

03-24-2003, 02:42 PM	#12
Rocky Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Living Off The Grid Posts: 3,022	Denial And Deception ------------------------------- Newsweek magazine published an article discussing the viruses, poisons and gases that the U.S. sent to Saddam Hussein in the mid-1980s. At that time, the U.S. regarded Iraq as a potential ally against Iran's Ayatollah Khomeni. "In the 1980s, the Ayatollah Khomeni was America's sworn enemy, and the U.S. government courted Saddam Hussein in an effort to undermine the Ayatollah and Iran. Today, Saddam Hussein is America's biggest enemy, and the U.S. is said to be making overtures to Iran." --------------------------------- Saddam Hussein was, is and will always be a monster. So if he was a monster back when he was funded and supported, what does that say about the people who are now saying that the same monster they assisted needs to be destroyed? __________________ Are you down with Sin?