Fuck all processors.....Just get a bank.... - GoFuckYourself.com

flyingco · 03-19-2003, 04:55 PM

Jesus H. Christ. The whole fucking industry is in a mess the way I see it.

1. WebsiteBilling is fucking its webmasters because their bank is probably holding onto their money which causes a ripple effect.

2. Paypal has stopped accepting payments for adult material.

3. Visa/MC have implemented their 750 dollars for merchant accounts with ISPS.

It will get a lot tougher for a lot of guys who are here. I will predict a lot of people who used to do porn for a living will vanish off shortly because of the hard times ahead. Not that it matters to me, I have already built different things but man, the world is NOT a friendly place for adult business and certainly not friendly towards e-commerce.

Lets face it people, the reason we are getting all this is because of bad business practice from previous sponsors etc. Hence the tightening up of rules and regulations. And it certainly does NOT help when webmasters here sue sponsors, report to FBI for fraud etc. It gives everyone a bad name. Not that any webmaster here cares because it is every man for himself or rather him or herself.

However, due to my background in third party processing previously (I used to run a small third party processor which I later sold to a listed company), I will say that Visa/MC have us by the balls. Seriously, look one day they can easily say lets stop processing adult totally.

Fraud and Credit card fraud is far worse then SPAM; yet fucking idiots and I will swear a lot of you go after spammers when you should hate credit card fraud more. It is the fucking bane of life! Look when third party processors lose money; they go under who suffers? You as the WEBMASTER; on the other hand, how does spam hurt you? All you do is reach for the delete key, yet with so many sites dedicated towards spam, you would think spam is FAR WORSE A CRIME THEN CREDIT CARD FRAUD. I Beg to differ.

Now, the solution is not easy. All of us webmastes need a fucking processor. Getting a merchant account is not easy especially if you are just starting out. Heck even if you are established you got a lot to handle. So third party processors or independent merchant accounts are the way to go. However, if you get too many chargebacks, you are held liable if you are a merchant account. So what choices are you left with?

Fucking use a third party processor and pray that your check does not bounce and certainly hope that your fucking luck stays. But given everything that is on the table, THE ONLY WAY OUT I see is own a fucking bank and make the rules. Btw, make sure it is offshore then fucking deal with it. However, then again you fall under Visa/MC regulations. So the thing is to fucking overthrow VISA/MC. Jesus. I can forsee a black day for E-Commerce and Adult industries for sure.

Just food for thought.

-Nato

jact · 03-19-2003, 05:12 PM

Used to only cost a mil US to form an offshore bank, not sure what it is today.. heh.

tony286 · 03-19-2003, 05:57 PM

I think if you run a honest business getting and keeping a merchant account from the research I did is not that hard. I think third party processors tell horror stories to keep us using them. Also I agree we tend to keep our mouth shut when we know of others that scam and fuck the customer. What they do is our business and affects all of us but no one gives a shit until there is no more processing and they all have to get day jobs. lol

rossiya2 · 03-19-2003, 06:06 PM

Some of the horror stories are true. Customers making $30,000/mo. stop getting paid. Lady making her livelihood from her site it told to keep waiting. Management recommends their competitor because they are tired of defending their thievery.

tony286 · 03-19-2003, 06:13 PM

I wasnt clear I am sorry ,what I meant was third party processors tell us horror stories of having your own merchant account. So people dont try to get their own merchant account.

Giorgio_Xo · 03-19-2003, 06:26 PM

We could either form a national savings bank or a credit union. Completely run online with one branch in a favorable no corporate tax state like Wyoming. All webmaster would open up bank accounts and issued debit cards.

The number one problem is fraud and chargebacks. Who charges the chargeback, VISA or the issuing bank?

tony286 · 03-19-2003, 06:35 PM

Well I think we would have less of a problem with CB's because the screening method for adult webmasters who wanted merchant accounts would be better because everyone would be in the business and could spot thieves better.

HardProfits · 03-19-2003, 07:40 PM

Wow - flyingco, I don?t know who you are, but you are saying the exact same things I have been saying lately

Some big billing changes are due to impact on our industry this year, and all I keep seeing is the same old BS being pushed around by many major sponsors, that is putting more nails in our mutual coffins

Here are the problems specifically with certain sponsor programs that seem to be able to pay high returns on free or low cost trials:

1) They don?t offer easy cancellation systems, or they do cancel you just after your trial membership recurs

2) They sell you into secondary memberships without your knowledge at the start

3) They up sell you into secondary memberships inside the members? area

4) I have deleted this point, as it is so bad it would have created a s#@t storm if I had of printed it

And in all cases, the sponsor program relies on the fact that the surfer wont complain to the bank about a subscription they entered into for a porn site.

But the real problem is that all the affiliates out there rely on the fact that they can get $45 per free or low cost trial. Doesn?t anyone see that this is the real problem?

I mean, I have quite a few sites, and my own billing systems, and there is no way in hell I can similar commissions for a free trial or low cost sign up, unless I do either (or both) of the following

1) Cheat the surfer
2) Cheat the affiliate

Now, I am sure there are going to be sponsors etc who will blast me for what I have said here, and to be honest, I don?t give a f@#k

I have seen with my own eyes how many sponsors operate, and I know for a fact they are cheating, lying, dishonest thugs who wouldn?t make it in the real world as anything other than pimps

This is the greatest business to be involved with, and I am glad to see Visa and MasterCard take a stand against these d@#k heads, so honest webmasters can get on with giving the surfers their 5 minutes of pleasure

mrthumbs · 03-19-2003, 07:42 PM

excellent posts so far

flyingco · 03-20-2003, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tony404
I think if you run a honest business getting and keeping a merchant account from the research I did is not that hard. I think third party processors tell horror stories to keep us using them. Also I agree we tend to keep our mouth shut when we know of others that scam and fuck the customer. What they do is our business and affects all of us but no one gives a shit until there is no more processing and they all have to get day jobs. lol

You can run an honest business and still get fucked.

Case in point:

Many people have used PayPal for example honestly and still gotten fucked. Not that PayPal is a processor....but just letting you know; anyone processing be it the bank or a third party can fuck you over and you have very little recourse.

As for the fact that we tend to keep our mouth shut, well, that is the industry standard, but VISA/MC being who they are do not respect merchants period. Look, they are bankers. How do they know how to run a company anyways? If they knew how to run a company and how to build it up; do you think they would be working behind that desk giving commands when they could be easily earning 30k or more by building a business?

As for day time jobs, I already run 6 online business and more so no day time job for me except investment in companies.

-Nato

foreverjason · 03-20-2003, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Fraud and Credit card fraud is far worse then SPAM; yet fucking idiots and I will swear a lot of you go after spammers when you should hate credit card fraud more. It is the fucking bane of life

Exactly.

Also why dont a bunch of porn webmasters get together to provide a safe solution for us all?

flyingco · 03-20-2003, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tony404
I wasnt clear I am sorry ,what I meant was third party processors tell us horror stories of having your own merchant account. So people dont try to get their own merchant account.

Because of the background I come from, but no vested interest at this moment, it is true, getting your own merchant account can be hazzardous to your life; simply because if you ever lose it; you are totally fucked for life. Visa/MC have no fucking sympathy at all if you don't have up to date accounts; freezes your accounts etc. It is NOT a pretty sight. I have been there before when companies came to help to help them put them right. Someone should take Visa/MC by the horns and really trash them.

-Nato

ronin · 03-20-2003, 01:32 AM

Just food for thought:

too much food, no thought.

flyingco · 03-20-2003, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by foreverjason

Exactly.

Also why dont a bunch of porn webmasters get together to provide a safe solution for us all?

The problem exists as such. Each and everyone of us are in it for our own personal reasons. I remember a post someone said here once that we should stop TGPs because it will kill the adult industry. Well, some smart alec here said if the rest of the adult webmasters were not going to do it; they would. So that idea just would NOT work. Hence, why should anyone put in all the work only to be fucked at the end? Now if a company like ARS were to buy a bank and then fucking make it there......I am sure it will sell.

-Nato

PS. We can always set up a bank in lets say some midwest state, EG, Indiana etc. License fees are only about 5 MM. No more then that. Any takers? I know the licensing procedure.

flyingco · 03-20-2003, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tony404
Well I think we would have less of a problem with CB's because the screening method for adult webmasters who wanted merchant accounts would be better because everyone would be in the business and could spot thieves better.

Chargebacks are NOT the processors fault and certainly NOT the merchants fault.

For example, I can fucking go to your website punch in my credit card view for 1 month 2 months or even 3 months then fucking write to my credit card and say I NEVER ORDERED IT. I bet you will find youself not tagged with loss of lets say 40 x 3 = 120 but a loss of 120 dollars income you already spent; plus on top of it the chargeback fees of lets say 15 dollars each 15 x 3 = 45 bucks plus on top of it the 35 bucks you paid out to your affliate.

The problem is that VISA/MC do not side with the merchant. If they sided with the MERCHANT, we would not be in the dilenma we are currently in

Mark my words guys. We need to take action now and form an alliance that will stop Visa/MC before it gets worst for everyone.

Look if you think merchant accounts are a joke, DON'T. EVEN WAL-MART is suing VISA/MC. So you tell me; and WAL-MART has cash bros. If they weren't being hurt by VISA/MC do you think they would let it go? Of course.

-Nato

flyingco · 03-20-2003, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HardProfits

This is the greatest business to be involved with, and I am glad to see Visa and MasterCard take a stand against these d@#k heads, so honest webmasters can get on with giving the surfers their 5 minutes of pleasure

I cannot concur with you that VISA/MC taking a stand is good against anyone. Look, we have already a negative image in the general populations mind. Anytime there is a fallout, we as adult companies suffer. We need a solid front to stand up to them.

-Nato

goBigtime · 03-20-2003, 01:50 AM

Blah blah the best thing to do is get your own merchant account and run it all through a GATEWAY PROCESSOR.

The fees for gateway processing are usually very very cheap or even a flat per trans fee (like $1/trans or something). Authorize.net is a big gateway processor, Ibill & CCbill both used to (and probably still do) offer gateway processing.

Afaik, Netbilling's whole business model is based on gateway processing (uses your own merchant account, not theirs, not 3rd party).. but I could be wrong there.

At this stage in the game if you are doing over $5000 month of NEW BUSINESS and don't have control of your merchant account, and rebill data, you are obviously asking for big trouble.

It's bad enough all the old rebills (YOUR clients) aren't portable.

You can always switch gateway processors & when you do, the charges wont change on the customers statements.

Donnie Gangsta · 03-20-2003, 02:21 AM

3rd party processors are pointless now. each individual site owner is responsible for the Visa imposed chargeback threshold of 2.5% for their particular account. Previously, 3rd party processors were an umbrella people could use if their margins were a little higher, but that's the past...

thus, your conception is wrong. Getting a merchant bank wouldn't help anything, since you're still responsible for maintaining a 2.49% or less ratio with Visa. And a card holder's issuing bank is the one who issues the charge back, so how would buying a bank help prevent this from happening?

Neff · 03-20-2003, 03:49 AM

flyingco:
Bitter food for bitter thoughts.
It looks like Visa/MC start decide who's good and who's bad in
e-commerce. And I think they wouldn't stop on this very first step.

What's next? May be they will ban my-family-at-sea sites? 'cuz here is a pic of my little nephew and he is no-nude-teen

Own Merchant Acc... If they approve it... may be...

Oh Man, adult biz never was a piece of cake but now they make it really hard.

max.yambo · 03-20-2003, 05:18 AM

Hey,

We offer offshore gateway credit card processing. We charge only 8%. You get your funds each 10 days to your account at Yambo. Then you can transfer your money wherever you want immedietely - offshore banks, paypal, US banks, whatever. You can get the anonymous ATM card as well.

We got many US and Canadian customers working with us right now. Hit me on the icq. I'll give you refs.

THanks.

03-19-2003, 04:55 PM	#1
flyingco Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: LA, CA, US Posts: 329	Fuck all processors.....Just get a bank.... Jesus H. Christ. The whole fucking industry is in a mess the way I see it. 1. WebsiteBilling is fucking its webmasters because their bank is probably holding onto their money which causes a ripple effect. 2. Paypal has stopped accepting payments for adult material. 3. Visa/MC have implemented their 750 dollars for merchant accounts with ISPS. It will get a lot tougher for a lot of guys who are here. I will predict a lot of people who used to do porn for a living will vanish off shortly because of the hard times ahead. Not that it matters to me, I have already built different things but man, the world is NOT a friendly place for adult business and certainly not friendly towards e-commerce. Lets face it people, the reason we are getting all this is because of bad business practice from previous sponsors etc. Hence the tightening up of rules and regulations. And it certainly does NOT help when webmasters here sue sponsors, report to FBI for fraud etc. It gives everyone a bad name. Not that any webmaster here cares because it is every man for himself or rather him or herself. However, due to my background in third party processing previously (I used to run a small third party processor which I later sold to a listed company), I will say that Visa/MC have us by the balls. Seriously, look one day they can easily say lets stop processing adult totally. Fraud and Credit card fraud is far worse then SPAM; yet fucking idiots and I will swear a lot of you go after spammers when you should hate credit card fraud more. It is the fucking bane of life! Look when third party processors lose money; they go under who suffers? You as the WEBMASTER; on the other hand, how does spam hurt you? All you do is reach for the delete key, yet with so many sites dedicated towards spam, you would think spam is FAR WORSE A CRIME THEN CREDIT CARD FRAUD. I Beg to differ. Now, the solution is not easy. All of us webmastes need a fucking processor. Getting a merchant account is not easy especially if you are just starting out. Heck even if you are established you got a lot to handle. So third party processors or independent merchant accounts are the way to go. However, if you get too many chargebacks, you are held liable if you are a merchant account. So what choices are you left with? Fucking use a third party processor and pray that your check does not bounce and certainly hope that your fucking luck stays. But given everything that is on the table, THE ONLY WAY OUT I see is own a fucking bank and make the rules. Btw, make sure it is offshore then fucking deal with it. However, then again you fall under Visa/MC regulations. So the thing is to fucking overthrow VISA/MC. Jesus. I can forsee a black day for E-Commerce and Adult industries for sure. Just food for thought. -Nato __________________ ICQ: 618619654

03-19-2003, 05:12 PM	#2
jact Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oakville, Canada Posts: 9,134	Used to only cost a mil US to form an offshore bank, not sure what it is today.. heh. __________________ Free agent

03-19-2003, 06:26 PM	#6
Giorgio_Xo Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 4,263	We could either form a national savings bank or a credit union. Completely run online with one branch in a favorable no corporate tax state like Wyoming. All webmaster would open up bank accounts and issued debit cards. The number one problem is fraud and chargebacks. Who charges the chargeback, VISA or the issuing bank? __________________ Make Levees, Not War

03-20-2003, 02:21 AM	#18
Donnie Gangsta Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,104	3rd party processors are pointless now. each individual site owner is responsible for the Visa imposed chargeback threshold of 2.5% for their particular account. Previously, 3rd party processors were an umbrella people could use if their margins were a little higher, but that's the past... thus, your conception is wrong. Getting a merchant bank wouldn't help anything, since you're still responsible for maintaining a 2.49% or less ratio with Visa. And a card holder's issuing bank is the one who issues the charge back, so how would buying a bank help prevent this from happening? Last edited by Donnie Gangsta; 03-20-2003 at 02:32 AM..

03-20-2003, 05:18 AM	#20
max.yambo Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 218	Hey, We offer offshore gateway credit card processing. We charge only 8%. You get your funds each 10 days to your account at Yambo. Then you can transfer your money wherever you want immedietely - offshore banks, paypal, US banks, whatever. You can get the anonymous ATM card as well. We got many US and Canadian customers working with us right now. Hit me on the icq. I'll give you refs. THanks. __________________ <a href="http://www.yambo.biz"><img border="0" src="http://www.yambo.biz/public/gfy.yambo.gif"/></a> Max Bugaenko Yambo Financials Ltd. <b>ICQ 111225</b>

03-19-2003, 05:57 PM	#3
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	I think if you run a honest business getting and keeping a merchant account from the research I did is not that hard. I think third party processors tell horror stories to keep us using them. Also I agree we tend to keep our mouth shut when we know of others that scam and fuck the customer. What they do is our business and affects all of us but no one gives a shit until there is no more processing and they all have to get day jobs. lol

03-19-2003, 06:06 PM	#4
rossiya2 Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 287	Some of the horror stories are true. Customers making $30,000/mo. stop getting paid. Lady making her livelihood from her site it told to keep waiting. Management recommends their competitor because they are tired of defending their thievery.

03-19-2003, 06:13 PM	#5
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	I wasnt clear I am sorry ,what I meant was third party processors tell us horror stories of having your own merchant account. So people dont try to get their own merchant account.

03-19-2003, 06:35 PM	#7
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	Well I think we would have less of a problem with CB's because the screening method for adult webmasters who wanted merchant accounts would be better because everyone would be in the business and could spot thieves better.

03-19-2003, 07:40 PM	#8
HardProfits So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: BrizVegas Posts: 346	Wow - flyingco, I don?t know who you are, but you are saying the exact same things I have been saying lately Some big billing changes are due to impact on our industry this year, and all I keep seeing is the same old BS being pushed around by many major sponsors, that is putting more nails in our mutual coffins Here are the problems specifically with certain sponsor programs that seem to be able to pay high returns on free or low cost trials: 1) They don?t offer easy cancellation systems, or they do cancel you just after your trial membership recurs 2) They sell you into secondary memberships without your knowledge at the start 3) They up sell you into secondary memberships inside the members? area 4) I have deleted this point, as it is so bad it would have created a s#@t storm if I had of printed it And in all cases, the sponsor program relies on the fact that the surfer wont complain to the bank about a subscription they entered into for a porn site. But the real problem is that all the affiliates out there rely on the fact that they can get $45 per free or low cost trial. Doesn?t anyone see that this is the real problem? I mean, I have quite a few sites, and my own billing systems, and there is no way in hell I can similar commissions for a free trial or low cost sign up, unless I do either (or both) of the following 1) Cheat the surfer 2) Cheat the affiliate Now, I am sure there are going to be sponsors etc who will blast me for what I have said here, and to be honest, I don?t give a f@#k I have seen with my own eyes how many sponsors operate, and I know for a fact they are cheating, lying, dishonest thugs who wouldn?t make it in the real world as anything other than pimps This is the greatest business to be involved with, and I am glad to see Visa and MasterCard take a stand against these d@#k heads, so honest webmasters can get on with giving the surfers their 5 minutes of pleasure

03-19-2003, 07:42 PM	#9
mrthumbs salad tossing sig guy Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: mrthumbs*gmail.com Posts: 11,702	excellent posts so far

03-20-2003, 01:32 AM	#13
ronin Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Main St. Posts: 1,300	Just food for thought: too much food, no thought.

03-20-2003, 01:50 AM	#17
goBigtime Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 7,761	Blah blah the best thing to do is get your own merchant account and run it all through a GATEWAY PROCESSOR. The fees for gateway processing are usually very very cheap or even a flat per trans fee (like $1/trans or something). Authorize.net is a big gateway processor, Ibill & CCbill both used to (and probably still do) offer gateway processing. Afaik, Netbilling's whole business model is based on gateway processing (uses your own merchant account, not theirs, not 3rd party).. but I could be wrong there. At this stage in the game if you are doing over $5000 month of NEW BUSINESS and don't have control of your merchant account, and rebill data, you are obviously asking for big trouble. It's bad enough all the old rebills (YOUR clients) aren't portable. You can always switch gateway processors & when you do, the charges wont change on the customers statements.

03-20-2003, 03:49 AM	#19
Neff Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 86	flyingco: Bitter food for bitter thoughts. It looks like Visa/MC start decide who's good and who's bad in e-commerce. And I think they wouldn't stop on this very first step. What's next? May be they will ban my-family-at-sea sites? 'cuz here is a pic of my little nephew and he is no-nude-teen Own Merchant Acc... If they approve it... may be... Oh Man, adult biz never was a piece of cake but now they make it really hard.