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American Psycho

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#1

Shooting models with foreign and 2257

10-07-2015, 07:30 AM

as a US based company whats the rule for shooting foreign models with only foreign ids?

can a us based company legitimately sell that content on dvd / web etc without breaking any major rules?

any lawyers input much appreciated....
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#2

10-07-2015, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by American Psycho

as a US based company whats the rule for shooting foreign models with only foreign ids?

can a us based company legitimately sell that content on dvd / web etc without breaking any major rules?

any lawyers input much appreciated....

You must have the same quality of ID, meaning at least one government issued picture ID, like a passport. So as far as 2257 is concerned, it is the same.

The bigger concern is payment and how the income/expense is reported to the IRS and whether or not they have a permit to work in the US if you are paying them in the US.

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#3

10-07-2015, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by American Psycho

as a US based company whats the rule for shooting foreign models with only foreign ids?

can a us based company legitimately sell that content on dvd / web etc without breaking any major rules?

any lawyers input much appreciated....

Since foreign ID's are accepted in the US (you can rent a car/room/house, you can drive, open a bank account, buy alcohol etc), then what's the problem with 2257? The international passports and driver ID's have the unified format, so they can be used almost anywhere for anything.

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#4

10-07-2015, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Far-L

The bigger concern is payment and how the income/expense is reported to the IRS and whether or not they have a permit to work in the US if you are paying them in the US.

Hint: W8 form.

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ExtremeBank_Adam

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#5

10-07-2015, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by American Psycho

as a US based company whats the rule for shooting foreign models with only foreign ids?

can a us based company legitimately sell that content on dvd / web etc without breaking any major rules?

any lawyers input much appreciated....

It is my understanding that if you are shooting in the US, then the ID must be a US ID (or state / local ID).

If you are shooting outside of the US, the ID origin does not matter.

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#6

10-07-2015, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by ExtremeBank_Adam

It is my understanding that if you are shooting in the US, then the ID must be a US ID (or state / local ID).

If you are shooting outside of the US, the ID origin does not matter.

So if I gonna rent and drive a car inside the US (as a non-American) I need to have the US ID? Wrong. I don't need it. The same works for everything else. An international passport is a legit ID anywhere and it doesn't matter where it was issued.

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#7

10-07-2015, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by CyberSEO

So if I gonna rent and drive a car inside the US (as a non-American) I need to have the US ID? Wrong. I don't need it. The same works for everything else. An international passport is a legit ID anywhere and it doesn't matter where it was issued.

The laws for renting a car in the US have nothing to do with 2257 and record keeping requirements.

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#8

10-07-2015, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by CyberSEO

Hint: W8 form.

Nope:

The Form W-8BEN, Certificate of Foreign Status of Beneficial Owner for United States Tax Withholding, is used by foreign persons (including corporations) to certify their non-U.S. status. The form establishes that one is a non-resident alien or foreign corporation, to avoid or reduce tax withholding from U.S. source income, such as rents from U.S. property, interest on U.S. bank deposits or dividends paid by U.S. corporations. The form is not used for U.S. wages and salaries earned by non-resident aliens (in which case Form W-4 is used), or for U.S. freelance (dependent personal services) income (in which case Form 8233 is used). The form requires the foreign person to provide a U.S. Taxpayer Identification Number unless the U.S. income is dividends or interest from actively traded or similar investments. Other W-forms handle other international issues. The IRS released a new version of W-8BEN in February 2014 that required corporations to sign an W-8BEN-E form instead, which was still in draft status. For foreign corporations it was unclear, whether they were required to sign the previous W-8BEN form (established in 2006) or to sign the draft version of W-8BEN-E.

They need to do a w4.

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#9

10-07-2015, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by CyberSEO

So if I gonna rent and drive a car inside the US (as a non-American) I need to have the US ID? Wrong. I don't need it. The same works for everything else. An international passport is a legit ID anywhere and it doesn't matter where it was issued.

You need a special permit if you want to drive a car in the US if you're a Non-US citizen with a license/passport. With the exception of Canada I believe.

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#10

10-07-2015, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by ExtremeBank_Adam

The laws for renting a car in the US have nothing to do with 2257 and record keeping requirements.

It was just an example. With international passport you can open an account in the US bank etc. So if your ID is ok for everything like that, why it could be not ok for 2257 when the only purpose of it is to proof the legal age of the performer and nothing else? If you can buy a booze with that ID, why can't you comply with 2257? There is no mention on some special US ID's in 18 US Code § 2257. A hint: always study the law and you won't ask such questions.

Originally posted by Choopa Phil

You need a special permit if you want to drive a car in the US if you're a Non-US citizen with a license/passport

No I don't need any permits. I was to the USA and rented cars there. Had no problems with renting companies nor with the US police across the country (those were always very nice to me when I told where I'm from). A standard Russian driving license was the only ID I needed (nobody has asked me for a passport) + I've paid for the car insurance of course.

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ExtremeBank_Adam

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#11

10-07-2015, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by CyberSEO

It was an example. You can open an account in the US bank etc. So if the international ID is ok for everything like that, why it could be not ok for 2257 when the only purpose of ID is to proof the legal age of the model and nothing else? If you can buy a booze with such an ID, why can't you comply with 2257? Please read the law. There is no mention on some special US ID's in 18 US Code § 2257. A hint: always study the law and you won't ask such questions.

I have read the law. And, USC 2257 is only PART of what you need to know. In fact, the link that you included shows EXACTLY what I mean.

Near the top of that page is a tab that says "Authorities (CFR)". That is the Code of Federal Regulations that pertain to USC 2257. Click that tab and you will see all of the CFR's that need to be observed. There is only one listed: 28 CFR Part 75

From there, observe 28 CFR 75.2, which outlines the "Maintenance of Records".

§ 75.2 Maintenance of records, says in part, that a "picture identification card" must be presented by the model.

§ 75.1 Definitions, defines exactly what a "picture identification card" is, as it pertains to USC 2257 and 28 CFR Part 75:

(b) Picture identification card means a document issued by the United States, a State government, or a political subdivision thereof, or a United States territory, that bears the photograph, the name of the individual identified, and the date of birth of that individual, and provides specific information sufficient for the issuing authority to confirm its validity, such as a passport, Permanent Resident Card (commonly known as a ?Green Card?), or employment authorization document issued by the United States, a driver's license or other form of identification issued by a State or the District of Columbia; or a foreign government-issued equivalent of any of the documents listed above when the person who is the subject of the picture identification card is a non-U.S. citizen located outside the United States at the time of original production and the producer maintaining the required records, whether a U.S. citizen or non-U.S. citizen, is located outside the United States on the original production date. The picture identification card must be valid as of the original production date.

To paraphrase, you must use a document issued by the United States (or one of it's states). The only way you can present a foreign government issued ID is if the model is a non-US citizen located OUTSIDE of the US during production AND the producer is located OUTSIDE of the US during production.

Now, you can interpret that any way you'd like, but it's pretty clear to me.

Originally posted by CyberSEO

A hint: always study the law and you won't ask such questions.

You were saying?

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#12

10-07-2015, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by ExtremeBank_Adam

To paraphrase, you must use a document issued by the United States (or one of it's states). The only way you can present a foreign government issued ID is if the model is a non-US citizen located OUTSIDE of the US during production AND the producer is located OUTSIDE of the US during production.

Ok and how could it be checked? I mean where the producer was located during the production? Does it say the GPS coordinates must be included?

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#13

10-07-2015, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by ExtremeBank_Adam

It is my understanding that if you are shooting in the US, then the ID must be a US ID (or state / local ID

If you are shooting outside of the US, the ID origin does not matter.

ExtremeBank Adam is 1000% correct.

Its up to you if you close your eyes on this legal fact ....

If you are shooting a model for pay, the foreign model is required to have the legal right to work in the USA, either by being a US Citizen, Permanent or Temporary Residence, or having any number of Visa's which give them the right to work in the US.

What some of the well know modeling agencies do, is drive their girls to States like Arizona, where the local DMV does not seem to care about legal status of the foreigner, and simple issue a AZ ID card. While having possession of the AZ ID does not entitle the foreign model to work legally in the US, the agencies and producers attempt to plead ignorance by stating "jee I have no idea she didnt have the legal right to work in the USA- she presented me with a AZ ID - I thought this was enough."

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#14

10-07-2015, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by CyberSEO

It was just an example. With international passport you can open an account in the US bank etc.

You also need a U.S. Social security number to open a bank account in the U.S.

You could get a prepaid debit card without the SS number.

On another note, try opening a foreign bank account with a U.S. Passport these days. Most banks just look at you and laugh. They want nothing to do with the onerous paperwork that comes with FATCA.
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#15

10-07-2015, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by RandyRandy

You also need a U.S. Social security number to open a bank account in the U.S.

You could get a prepaid debit card without the SS number.

On another note, try opening a foreign bank account with a U.S. Passport these days. Most banks just look at you and laugh. They want nothing to do with the onerous paperwork that comes with FATCA.

Unless you go with BOA. They look the other way when people with no SS cards open accounts or buy houses. LOL.
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#16

10-07-2015, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by NALEM

ExtremeBank Adam is 1000% correct.

Its up to you if you close your eyes on this legal fact ....

If you are shooting a model for pay, the foreign model is required to have the legal right to work in the USA, either by being a US Citizen, Permanent or Temporary Residence, or having any number of Visa's which give them the right to work in the US.

What some of the well know modeling agencies do, is drive their girls to States like Arizona, where the local DMV does not seem to care about legal status of the foreigner, and simple issue a AZ ID card. While having possession of the AZ ID does not entitle the foreign model to work legally in the US, the agencies and producers attempt to plead ignorance by stating "jee I have no idea she didnt have the legal right to work in the USA- she presented me with a AZ ID - I thought this was enough."

Which, if the party attempting to bring charges was bent on doing so, would not be enough. The onus is on the producer to know and comply with the law. Whether or not it IS enforced is immaterial to the consideration of whether it COULD be enforced.
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#17

10-07-2015, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by ExtremeBank_Adam

I have read the law. And, USC 2257 is only PART of what you need to know. In fact, the link that you included shows EXACTLY what I mean.

Near the top of that page is a tab that says "Authorities (CFR)". That is the Code of Federal Regulations that pertain to USC 2257. Click that tab and you will see all of the CFR's that need to be observed. There is only one listed: 28 CFR Part 75

From there, observe 28 CFR 75.2, which outlines the "Maintenance of Records".

§ 75.2 Maintenance of records, says in part, that a "picture identification card" must be presented by the model.

§ 75.1 Definitions, defines exactly what a "picture identification card" is, as it pertains to USC 2257 and 28 CFR Part 75:

To paraphrase, you must use a document issued by the United States (or one of it's states). The only way you can present a foreign government issued ID is if the model is a non-US citizen located OUTSIDE of the US during production AND the producer is located OUTSIDE of the US during production.

Now, you can interpret that any way you'd like, but it's pretty clear to me.

You were saying?

The original poster asked if a lawyer was in the house. Yes, there is. And 2257 compliance has always been a big part of our practice.

ExtremeBank_Adam's answer probably nails it.

But perhaps, maybe, there may be a non-obvious work around for at least certain foreign performers. Some of them are admitted entry into the US only after obtaining a US Visa, depending on their nation of origin. They obtain that visa by bringing a passport to a US consular service location overseas, proving identity, getting photographed, and paying a fee. The visa is placed into the passport of the alien by US State Department officials and has the form and purpose of an identification document when presented at Customs.

It looks like this:

us visa - Bing Images

Hard to imagine why that Visa, stamped into the alien performer's passport, does not meet the definition of a "Picture Identification card" within the meaning of Section 75.1 (b) of the Regulations.

You'll find the current regs at XXXLAW - Section 2257 - Text of Regulations and this link will lead to the statute, regs, court decisions, and even audio recordings of oral argument in cases about Section 2257: XXXLAW - Section 2257 - 2257 HOME PAGE

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#18

10-07-2015, 05:52 PM

You've now left my free tour area.

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#19

10-07-2015, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by ilnjscb

Which, if the party attempting to bring charges was bent on doing so, would not be enough. The onus is on the producer to know and comply with the law. Whether or not it IS enforced is immaterial to the consideration of whether it COULD be enforced.

Exactly! ilnjscb

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#20

10-07-2015, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by ilnjscb View Post
Which, if the party attempting to bring charges was bent on doing so, would not be enough. The onus is on the producer to know and comply with the law. Whether or not it IS enforced is immaterial to the consideration of whether it COULD be enforced.

Originally posted by NALEM

Exactly! ilnjscb

I have no idea what ilniscb is saying or what Nalem agrees with, it doesn't appear to make any sense at all.

There is no "party attempting to bring charges". No one can be prosecuted for a felony under the United States constitution except upon presentment to and a favorable return from a Grand Jury in the district where the offense was alleged to be committed. It is the United States alone, the Department of Justice in particular, that has the right to present matters to a Grand Jury. Federal felonies are crimes, not private causes of action that would give rise to a private cause of action, if that's the meaning.

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#21

10-07-2015, 09:25 PM

I can't add much that hasn't already been said about IDs. Be aware that the US govt is big on human trafficking now. I've been interviewed by the US Senate Subcommittee on Human Trafficking about trafficking in adult.

Bringing models in from foreign countries to work in the US is a violation of immigration law. Customs and ICE watch out for this and numerous models are already on their watch list and often get turned away at the entry point and sent home on the next plane. Often they are not only refused entry but are also not allowed to re-enter the US on any type of VISA for up to 10 years.

If you're paying for that plane ticket it is a roll of the dice whether you will be wasting your money. This issue has come up numerous times in my practice. I even had a US model denied a entry in a EU country for a vacation because that country's custom officer didn't believe the model that they weren't working.

Social media has made this situation even worse. Models routinely discuss their shoots and flying in/out of the US for work.

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#22

10-07-2015, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by RandyRandy

You also need a U.S. Social security number to open a bank account in the U.S.

You could get a prepaid debit card without the SS number.

On another note, try opening a foreign bank account with a U.S. Passport these days. Most banks just look at you and laugh. They want nothing to do with the onerous paperwork that comes with FATCA.

You are correct. They will not open you an account typically unless you are a resident of the country and even then some countries will not allow it and only let citizens open bank accounts.

It used to be easier but 911 changed all that making foreign banks actually conform to the wishes of the US government who actually wants to assure that you pay all the taxes you can and not make it easy to move money out of the good ole U S of A.
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#23

10-08-2015, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by Joe Obenberger

Hard to imagine why that Visa, stamped into the alien performer's passport, does not meet the definition of a "Picture Identification card" within the meaning of Section 75.1 (b) of the Regulations.

This

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#24

10-08-2015, 01:31 AM

I don't want to sound like a perv or nothing but does anyone else get as much of a chubby as I do when the industry's sexiest attorneys come in here and bust it out no charge?

Thanks you guys!

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#25

10-08-2015, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by Joe Obenberger

Originally Posted by ilnjscb View Post
Which, if the party attempting to bring charges was bent on doing so, would not be enough. The onus is on the producer to know and comply with the law. Whether or not it IS enforced is immaterial to the consideration of whether it COULD be enforced.

I have no idea what ilniscb is saying or what Nalem agrees with, it doesn't appear to make any sense at all.

Party to me is the US Gov.

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#26

10-08-2015, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by Joe Obenberger

Originally Posted by ilnjscb View Post
Which, if the party attempting to bring charges was bent on doing so, would not be enough. The onus is on the producer to know and comply with the law. Whether or not it IS enforced is immaterial to the consideration of whether it COULD be enforced.

I have no idea what ilniscb is saying or what Nalem agrees with, it doesn't appear to make any sense at all.

There is no "party attempting to bring charges". No one can be prosecuted for a felony under the United States constitution except upon presentment to and a favorable return from a Grand Jury in the district where the offense was alleged to be committed. It is the United States alone, the Department of Justice in particular, that has the right to present matters to a Grand Jury. Federal felonies are crimes, not private causes of action that would give rise to a private cause of action, if that's the meaning.

Winning may matter to some, not being charged at all matters to most. In other words, Joe, we don't want to need you.
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#27

10-08-2015, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by CyberSEO

Ok and how could it be checked? I mean where the producer was located during the production? Does it say the GPS coordinates must be included?

So, you went from saying the law doesn't exist, to intentionally circumventing it? Good luck with that.

Remind me never to ask you for legal advice, or to buy content from you.

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#28

10-08-2015, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by ExtremeBank_Adam

So, you went from saying the law doesn't exist, to intentionally circumventing it? Good luck with that.

Remind me never to ask you for legal advice, or to buy content from you.

I do net sell content. I'm a coder

BTW, Joe Obenberger told the same thing as me: the US visa for foreigners is a valid US-issued ID.

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#29

10-08-2015, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by CyberSEO

I do net sell content. I'm a coder

I know. I was joking.

Originally posted by CyberSEO

BTW, Joe Obenberger told the same thing as me: the US visa for foreigners is a valid US-issued ID.

I'm quite sure your answer was nowhere near what his was.

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#30

10-08-2015, 10:36 AM

countries with visa waiver program do not have picture visas, those people have just non-US picture ids

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#31

10-08-2015, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by Joe Obenberger

Originally Posted by ilnjscb View Post
The onus is on the producer to know and comply with the law. Whether or not it IS enforced is immaterial to the consideration of whether it COULD be enforced.

No one can be prosecuted for a felony under the United States constitution except upon presentment to and a favorable return from a Grand Jury in the district where the offense was alleged to be committed. It is the United States alone, the Department of Justice in particular, that has the right to present matters to a Grand Jury.

Originally posted by ilnjscb

Winning may matter to some, not being charged at all matters to most. In other words, Joe, we don't want to need you.

And here again I agree with "ilnjscb"'s statement. Smart forward thinking business people, do not intentionally try to violate or circumvent the laws. I will never intentionally violate the local laws that control me as a person, or my business activities so as to put at risk my personal freedom, or the financial well being of the company and its employees and their families. I never want to be in a bad situation that I am at fault for creating, where I need legal counsel to "try" to get me out of it.

Originally posted by CyberSEO

Ok and how could it be checked? I mean where the producer was located during the production? Does it say the GPS coordinates must be included?

EXIF metadata - depending upon the capabilities of your digital camera or smartphone, encoded in the image, your photos can have the exact coordinates of where the photo was exposed.

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Originally posted by pornlaw

I can't add much that hasn't already been said about IDs. Be aware that the US govt is big on human trafficking now. I've been interviewed by the US Senate Subcommittee on Human Trafficking about trafficking in adult.

Bringing models in from foreign countries to work in the US is a violation of immigration law. Customs and ICE watch out for this and numerous models are already on their watch list and often get turned away at the entry point and sent home on the next plane. Often they are not only refused entry but are also not allowed to re-enter the US on any type of VISA for up to 10 years.

Michael was good to remind everyone of this fact. It really hurts the individual models the most, and they are banned from entering the US for many many years. I can think of a dozen models + that have gone through this. They were from: Canada, UK, HU, CZ, and RU.

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