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maxjohan

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#1

Patent trolls??

09-23-2015, 05:01 AM

I got thoughts about starting a tech start up. My goal will be to stay low key and to get acquired. My question is. If I get acquired. Am I still responsible for patent infringement. Before acquisition?? Or how does it work??

Or do those who acquired me, take the hit??

Would suck to get a good chunk of money, then getting sued for a trillion dollars. If you lose then in court. Money will be gone.

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Kelli58

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09-23-2015, 05:06 AM

Who would be stupid enough to acquire you if all of your content is illegal? Your business model makes no sense. And yes, you will be liable for any illegal activity that took place while YOU owned the site.

And you will lose in court because there is no defense against copyright infringement. You stole their shit, you know you stole their shit, they know you stole their shit and it's a $150,000 default judgement PER offense.

Do the math.

On the other hand content deals are so crazy cheap right now, you could do a bulk deal with some guys and legally get the rights for like $1 - $5 a scene.

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maxjohan

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#3

09-23-2015, 05:08 AM

Originally posted by Kelli58

Who would be stupid enough to acquire you if all of your content is illegal? Your business model makes no sense. And yes, you will be liable for any illegal activity that took place while YOU owned the site.

And you will lose in court because there is no defense against copyright infringement. You stole their shit, you know you stole their shit, they know you stole their shit and it's a $150,000 default judgement PER offense.

Do the math.

On the other hand content deals are so crazy cheap right now, you could do a bulk deal with some guys and legally get the rights for like $1 - $5 a scene.

It's not about content. It's about software. And it's mainstream. Where did I say anything about what it was all about?? I didn't.

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L-Pink

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#4

09-23-2015, 05:12 AM

Soi you want to develop a tech company based on patents you don't own then sell the company to someone who isn't smart enough to research what he's buying.
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maxjohan

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#5

09-23-2015, 05:16 AM

Originally posted by L-Pink

Soi you want to develop a tech company based on patents you don't own then sell the company to someone who isn't smart enough to research what he's buying.

Nah... it's not so much patent heavy. I could say it's like a vid maker but with a twist to it. Will I infringe on any patent??

I don't know why you guys think I will do something illegal, or try to be unethical. That is not my style. You can still get sued for stupid patents. And that's why I am asking this question. But this is likely the wrong forum for that. I don't know.

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Markonline

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#6

09-23-2015, 05:19 AM

Originally posted by maxjohan

If I get acquired. Am I still responsible for patent infringement. Before acquisition?? Or how does it work??

Focus on Trademark (design), not a patent, or even potentially abusing an existing one.

If you look to some of Apple legal successes, it's the design they got the big wins on, not patent.
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maxjohan

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#7

09-23-2015, 05:28 AM

Originally posted by Markonline

Focus on Trademark (design), not a patent, or even potentially abusing an existing one.

If you look to some of Apple legal successes, it's the design they got the big wins on, not patent.

Okay. Like the interface for a vid maker? Are there a patent on that? Well... I think I might just be a bit too concerned from reading patent troll news. I don't know.

App developers withdraw from US as patent fears reach 'tipping point' | Technology | The Guardian

Maybe just stay out of the USA. And I'm good to go.

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#8

09-23-2015, 05:34 AM

Originally posted by maxjohan

Nah... it's not so much patent heavy. I could say it's like a vid maker but with a twist to it. Will I infringe on any patent??

I don't know why you guys think I will do something illegal, or try to be unethical. That is not my style. You can still get sued for stupid patents. And that's why I am asking this question. But this is likely the wrong forum for that. I don't know.

In your own words "Am I still responsible for patent infringement." Your opening post was about knowingly infringing on patents with a startup then knowingly selling that start but avoiding liability on the infringed patents.
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#9

09-23-2015, 05:37 AM

Originally posted by maxjohan

Okay. Like the interface for a vid maker? Are there a patent on that? Well... I think I might just be a bit too concerned from reading patent troll news. I don't know.

App developers withdraw from US as patent fears reach 'tipping point' | Technology | The Guardian

Maybe just stay out of the USA. And I'm good to go.

No shortage of open source ones you could add a unique function to and then try for a trademark.

By adding a trademark/similar you may have something saleable, and more importantly legally.

This involves investing both waiting time and money however, few seem inclined to look that far ahead these days.
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maxjohan

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#10

09-23-2015, 05:37 AM

Originally posted by L-Pink

In your own words "Am I still responsible for patent infringement." Your opening post was about knowingly infringing on patents with a startup then knowingly selling that start but avoiding liability on the infringed patents.

Are you stupid or something?? I never said anything to do knowingly. I meant that if the "court ruled" that I infringed on some patent trolls pantent. Get it?

The topic is about PATENT TROLLS. That should tell you something. Right?

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maxjohan

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#11

09-23-2015, 05:40 AM

Originally posted by Markonline

No shortage of open source ones you could add a unique function to and then try for a trademark.

By adding a trademark/similar you may have something saleable, and more importantly legally.

This involves investing both waiting time and money however, few seem inclined to look that far ahead these days.

Thanks. Very helpful. I'm just totally green on software and patents. You mean. Money for the patent?

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#12

09-23-2015, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by maxjohan

Are you stupid or something?? I never said anything to do knowingly. I meant that if the "court ruled" that I infringed on some patent trolls pantent. Get it?

The topic is about PATENT TROLLS. That should tell you something. Right?

Most patent attorneys I have dealt with have always said "If the business works the patents are not so important." Meaning you shouldnt be an idiot and do whatever you can to get IP for what you are doing. However, if you dont, and the business is successful, you will most likely have the capital to deal with the situation.

You can spent 100s of thousands trying to cover your ass by getting licensing to patents or applying for patents only to have some patent troll still come after you with some random patent where 1 claim "kind of applies" to your product,
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#13

09-23-2015, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by maxjohan

Are you stupid or something??

Yea, I'm the stupid on in this thread.
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maxjohan

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#14

09-23-2015, 05:47 AM

Originally posted by Brent 3dSexCash

You can spent 100s of thousands trying to cover your ass by getting licensing to patents or applying for patents only to have some patent troll still come after you with some random patent where 1 claim "kind of applies" to your product,

Thanks for the comment Brent. What I quoted and what you mentioned. Is exactly what I am concerned about. I don't want to get in legal trouble. Seems very soul-sucking.

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#15

09-23-2015, 05:49 AM

Originally posted by maxjohan

Thanks. Very helpful. I'm just totally green on software and patents. You mean. Money for the patent?

Just put the whole patent thing out of your head (including infringing one).

Focus on your trademark; far cheaper and, as said:
look a Apple litigation history, historically they've won big on trademarks, not patents.
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maxjohan

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#16

09-23-2015, 05:54 AM

Originally posted by Markonline

Just put the whole patent thing out of your head (including infringing one).

Focus on your trademark; far cheaper and, as said:
look a Apple litigation history, historically they've won big on trademarks, not patents.

Yeah. Maybe I should. I'm just too worried about getting slammed with some $500 million lawsuit for some stupid patent, nobody heard about.

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#17

09-23-2015, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by maxjohan

Yeah. Maybe I should. I'm just too worried about getting slammed with some $500 million lawsuit for some stupid patent, nobody heard about.

Assuming it's a serious venture put it all in a company.

Then you have a vehicle to sell (incl TM) and any personal liability is also thus limited.
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#18

09-23-2015, 06:12 AM

"my question is. If I get acquired. Am I still responsible for patent infringement. "
of course not bro.. do anything you want

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maxjohan

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#19

09-23-2015, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by Markonline

Assuming it's a serious venture put it all in a company.

Then you have a vehicle to sell (incl TM) and any personal liability is also thus limited.

Yeah. That was what I was thinking. I need to create a Ltd or a Inc company. I will not make it a proprietorship, just for that reason. But if I get acquired I would have terms for them to fight all patent lawsuits on my product. Those terms would be included in the deal. Just to easy up the anxiety.

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#20

09-23-2015, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by maxjohan

But if I get acquired I would have terms for them to fight all patent lawsuits on my product. Those terms would be included in the deal. Just to easy up the anxiety.

Do you think this would be possible, Mark?

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#21

09-23-2015, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by L-Pink

In your own words "Am I still responsible for patent infringement." Your opening post was about knowingly infringing on patents with a startup then knowingly selling that start but avoiding liability on the infringed patents.

To be fair, you can't setup a website, stream video or accept credit cards or even let your kid swing on a swing or probably take a shit on the toilet without violating countless patents...

https://www.newscientist.com/article...at-us-patents/

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maxjohan

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#22

09-23-2015, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by shake

To be fair, you can't setup a website, stream video or accept credit cards or even let your kid swing on a swing or probably take a shit on the toilet without violating countless patents...

https://www.newscientist.com/article...at-us-patents/

Yes. It seems to be true, what you say. It's really annoying that everything can be granted a patent now days. Fucking patent trolls. Annoying as shit. But those who award the patents are just as much to blame. If not more.

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#23

09-23-2015, 03:43 PM

Oy vey.

There is so much misunderstanding and outright obliviousness in this thread it is staggering. People need to re-read your original post.

As someone who spent seven years in patent litigation, eventually winning against a notorious firm of patent trolls, I can give you my professional opinion although I am not an attorney.

First, if you are in a tech business start up then you should be concerned with patents from day one, both from a defensive and offensive standpoint.

If you are developing something that might infringe on someone's patent, which is hard to know because Patent Trolls are notorious for "interpreting" their patent's prior art to try and prove you are infringing, then you need to know what you are doing and where there might be issues.

Also, if you have something that you develop that you can potentially patent then you have a lot more protection against problems like patent trolls regardless of whether or not you choose to prosecute it for licensing opportunities yourself.

Patent attorneys are not cheap so the more research you can put into understanding the prior art and where there may or may not be patents you might be infringing is time well spent. Better to know than to be blindsided by litigation that can cripple your new biz.

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#24

09-23-2015, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by maxjohan

Nah... it's not so much patent heavy. I could say it's like a vid maker but with a twist to it. Will I infringe on any patent??

I don't know why you guys think I will do something illegal, or try to be unethical. That is not my style. You can still get sued for stupid patents. And that's why I am asking this question. But this is likely the wrong forum for that. I don't know.

There are so many vid patents and so many vid patent trolls that you are well advised to research the prior art extensively.

I honestly don't know why everyone is trying to think you were going to do anything unethical. Nothing, and I mean NOT A THING gives any indication that you have any intention at all of doing anything unethical. Quite the opposite - your OP indicates that you are ethical imo.

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#25

09-23-2015, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by Markonline

Just put the whole patent thing out of your head (including infringing one).

Focus on your trademark; far cheaper and, as said:
look a Apple litigation history, historically they've won big on trademarks, not patents.

This is not really good advise to tell you the truth.

Apple has had great success with its patents.

A patent is entirely different from a trademark and each is designed to offer distinct protections. Both are important for that reason.

A tech company has to be concerned with patents if it is going to develop unique processes and or if it wants to be defensive against patent trolls.

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#26

09-23-2015, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by Far-L

There are so many vid patents and so many vid patent trolls that you are well advised to research the prior art extensively.

I honestly don't know why everyone is trying to think you were going to do anything unethical. Nothing, and I mean NOT A THING gives any indication that you have any intention at all of doing anything unethical. Quite the opposite - your OP indicates that you are ethical imo.

I think we're all used to people coming on here and basically saying they are going to start a tube site and scrape/steal content...

Patents are not clear cut like copyright or trademark. Even fucking angles for shooting videos have been patented and aggressively sued companies for (since revoked due to a ton of money and hard work) https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/1...ing-yoga-class

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#27

09-23-2015, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by shake

I think we're all used to people coming on here and basically saying they are going to start a tube site and scrape/steal content...

Patents are not clear cut like copyright or trademark.

Patents are actually supposed to be clear cut but that is for a different conversation.

The problem with patents and more specifically patent trolls is not so much whether or not the patent is legitimate, clear cut and straightforward, unique and applicable, but how patent trolls choose to prosecute their patents.

Contrary to what has been posted, Patents are not easy to get. Anyone that claims that hasn't tried to obtain one. However, Patents are not the issue. The issue is the lawsuits generated by prosecution of patents. Essentially, patent trolls using the "lemulson technique" exploit the high cost of patent defense as almost a legal form of extortion imo. Patent litigation is more expensive because of the level of expertise required. That is the problem. Not Patents in and of themselves.

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#28

09-23-2015, 04:24 PM

Also, to answer another question that was raised...

Even if you develop a business, sell the business, and state in the sale agreement that you would not be responsible for any patent violations that is still not necessarily going to protect you.

There is insurance that can be purchased but of course it is ridiculously expensive.

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#29

09-23-2015, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Far-L

Also, to answer another question that was raised...

Even if you develop a business, sell the business, and state in the sale agreement that you would not be responsible for any patent violations that is still not necessarily going to protect you.

There is insurance that can be purchased but of course it is ridiculously expensive.

Thanks Far-L. Very helpful posts. All of them.

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#30

09-23-2015, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by maxjohan

Thanks Far-L. Very helpful posts. All of them.

Thanks, glad I can help. I can honestly say that the money we spent to learn this stuff was money well spent, not just for our benefit but for others is good to know too.

If you create a company that has something that might be violating a patent that is going to make a huge difference in what kind of offers you would be able to tender. Of course, having a strong patent makes you ten times as valuable.

Also, keep in mind how you create a use makes a difference. A backpack manufacturer doesn't pay directly for the patent on the zipper sewn into the backpacks. The zipper manufacturer pays the patent for the right to make zippers.

Good idea to read up, then pay for an hour consultation with a patent attorney to ask all the questions you can. Keep in mind that the degree an attorney needs to practice patent law is specialized so you can't just talk to any attorney.

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