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i can understand that fact being unsettling, nevertheless, no one can prove Christianity has done more harm that good.
i've searched for proof, intensely, i can't find it.
i'm not defending Christianity. not that that won't stop my legion of fans from lashing out.Comment
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no. i already have my proof and i posted my view based on it and of it. without needing to quote to try to devalue other's posts.
please, you have your view and you associate it and yourself with the intelligent. i get it.
i have my view and i've come to it via a journey. don't let my confident view get to you.Comment
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...those that hate Christianity
Those that "hate" Christianity very often don't understand Christianity in it's entirety. But that's not surprising since Christianity as a whole often acts very UNchristian-like. That faith, like pretty much every other kind, all too often serves to shoot itself in the foot, sometimes to the point of making non believers wish they would shoot themselves in the head.
As to Christianity ending slavery, I don't think it wise for it (Christianity as a whole) to go taking on too much credit for something as massive as that. However, Christian values on the other hand -- love they neighbor, basic human decency, Lord's prayer (do unto others as..)etc ... values and precepts that as it happens are shared by several other major religions (in theory, sadly not always in practice -- I'm looking at you, Ilsam)... would be the more likely thing to take the lion's share of the credit for taking down slavery. Values.
That's not to say that slavery has been defeated either. The fact is it exists today all over the world to varying degrees. If "Christianity" is truly being given (or taking?) credit then they've done a pretty piss-poor job of keeping it in check I'd say.Promote Wildmatch, ImLive, Sexier.com, and more!!
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Was it? What were they doing for the 1500 years before that? I don't think it is a coincidence that slavery was eliminated along with enforced class systems, which are a form of slavery. Christianity taught slaves to accept their lot. Remember, god ordered the way things are. Reason said, "question it". Reason also said, don't stick red hot pokers up jewish people's bungholes, and don't imprison and burn people for saying the earth revolves around the sun, and the devil doesn't cause the plague, etc. All that good stuff. Slavery went away because people *stopped* being christian, and just accepting that god put this all in place for his unknowable purpose. They said, I personally believe slavery is wrong, and I'll fight against it. Also, I'll fight against priests raping little boys, etc etc. The church didn't really issue a bulla against slavery until 1839, and then it was unclear:
"In 1839, Pope Gregory XVI issued a bull, with the incipit In supremo apostolatus in which he condemned slavery, with particular reference to New World colonial slavery and the slave trade, calling it "inhumanum illud commercium." The exact meaning and scope of the Bull was disputed at the time, and remains so among historians. That new enslavements and slave-trading are condemned and forbidden absolutely is clear, but the language in the passage quoted below and other passages was not sufficiently specific to make clear what, if anything, the bull had to say about the ongoing ownership of those already slaves, although their sale seemed to be prohibited.There was certainly no clear call for the emancipation of all existing slaves, as had already happened in the British and French Empires."
Yet in the USA
"During and after the American Revolutionary War, between 1777 and 1804, anti-slavery laws or constitutions were passed in every state north of the Ohio River and the Mason-Dixon Line"
So the USA preceded the catholic church by many decades. Not because of Christianity, but because free people get around to the right thing. Christianity didn't spread freedom, freedom did. The church is anti-freedom. The church supports feudalism and slavery by its nature.Comment
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You wont find "proof" for what is inherently an argument about relative concepts.
But you could start with the Crusades, or sectarian conflict in Ireland, or The catholic Church conniving with the Nazi's and their Final Solution, or The British Empire, or The Spanish conquests in South America. Catholic sex education in the Third World and the Aids epidemic. The collusion of the Church and peodophile priests. Forced abortion of unmarried mothers. Its a long long list.
But then I suppose we would need to look at what you mean by "good". What are you balancing the atrocious wars and murders against ? Surely you don't have some ridiculous notion that Christianity brought us some moral code to live by ?
Morality does not come from the Bible. The Old testament is full of hate and murder. Bullshit like Lott appeasing the homosexuals of Sodom with his Virgin daughters. The book of Leviticus says that we should stone to death homosexuals. In fact stoning to death comes up rather frequently.
Then you have the new testament, its a bit lighter on the stonings and smotings and the doing to death of anyone who displeases the Lord, but it is still a bag of hypocritical shite where Christians pick and choose the bits that fit their particular "morals".
Dawkins explains it a lot better than I could.
"Americas Hitler" JD Vance.
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if you can't see the correlation between gun control arguments and your Christianity was dodgy 1000 years ago and people do shitty stuff to each other and I blame Christianity what the fuck can I do?
your argument is this: I stick a 2x4 way the fuck up your ass with no grease AND TELL YOU GOD TOLD ME TO DO THAT ... you blame Christianity... see how fucked up your argument is?
gun control argument: guns kill people.... my gun has never attacked anyone, any more than my dishwasher or ceiling fan have gone on a killing sprees.
and none of that changes the FACT that the abolitionist movement was based on Christian values and was a major factor in ending institutionalized slavery in the west...Comment
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It would be nice to give Christianity at least ONE feather in it's cap, so let's all give it some props for having a hand in ending slavery...otherwise it's just known for being a bloodthirsty murderous brainwash regime that is responsible for millions of gruesome deaths, burning people at the stake, child rape, polygamy, disgusting evangelist whore mongers, the vile Duggar Family...and of course Sarah Palin.Comment
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when did I state that I am pro Christianity? I stated one fact not a blanket admission of admiration...
in fact I have stated many times that I am NOT religious.... I stated that Christianity helped stop slavery in the west... I will say this though....the salvation army gave me food when I was hungry and did not ask anything from me...
you're the one making weird shit up and being a dipshit....
so you support gay marriage you're gay then?Comment
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First, the majority of you are conflating the Roman Catholic Church and Christianity as if the Reformation never happened and there was/is only one brand of Christianity. And for all the ills of the Catholic Church its influence on the development of Western Civilization has been hugely beneficial - where we are today, first world countries of today with their affluence wouldn't be what they are if not for the Church. Who do you think educated the masses of Europe? And charity for the sick and orphaned? The Marxists called religion the opiate of the masses, that it was used to exploit the masses by making their miserable lives tolerable with the promise of a better life after death. They were right, people worked their asses off and that work created wealth - wealth that one day would be shared, of course without much help from the Church. But over time the masses got smarter, literate, and society began to reform. Look at the countries where Buddhism and its variants predominate - they are still shithole 3rd world countries.
As far as the abolition of slavery in the US, he's right, the people who first settled America, the Pilgrims, were a Christian sect expelled from England. The Quakers and the Puritans other Christian sects who came to America to practice their brand of Christianity. They were all anti-slavery, all the Northern states were anti-slavery from the beginning.
Wipe Christianity out from history and we would not be where we are today, millions and millions have died because of religion but more have thrived because of its influence. Have we reached the point where we don't need religion? Every civilization ever existed has had some form of religion.I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!Comment
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I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!Comment
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The Catholic Church (and "Catholic" means "unity" or "one") is the first Christian church.
The first "pope" was supposedly Peter the apostle. (St. Peter)
And I have to say that the Christian religion certainly helped mankind plunge into a thousand years of backwards movement: The Dark Ages
Hell...humanity only recently in history was able to catch up with the technology of the Roman Empire. Thanks Christianity!
And during the Renaissance Period, guys like Da Vinci had to hide their work from the church or they would have been killed.
I've thought about it before...civilization would be 1,000 years into the future RIGHT NOW if not for the Dark Ages.
-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.ComComment
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mmmkay.....
So you dont see this that line of reasoning actually disproves your original post ?
By your reasoning it was the actual abolitionists who created a movement which called for the end of slavery. (actually they called for the end of a particular bit of slavery)
To claim it now for christianity is actually contrary to your post above.
You cannot have it both ways.
However I could not really give a shit if you want to believe that tripe. Go ahead knock yourself out.
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man no kidding, that's why I posted.... I do however know a few quality Christians personally... and I'm sure there are some great people that are application has been very very mean spirited more than once....
and again in all fairness I must point to low quality people being involved and all the things you have mentioned as blights against Christianity do happen with OUT Christianity
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Statement in bold is just not true. There were slaves in parts of the north through the 1850's. Slaves were primarily seen as farm labor. Not needed as much in the north as it was more industrialized earlier on. People in the north also wised up and realized much cheaper to pay someone a few pennies a day and let them worry for themselves about food and housing. It is why many blacks who fled the south after the Civil War started flowing back almost immediately.
Religion is the new slavery. Always has been always will be.Comment
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Robbie only one fly in the ointment: everything you mentioned happens without ChristianityThe Catholic Church (and "Catholic" means "unity" or "one") is the first Christian church.
The first "pope" was supposedly Peter the apostle. (St. Peter)
And I have to say that the Christian religion certainly helped mankind plunge into a thousand years of backwards movement: The Dark Ages
Hell...humanity only recently in history was able to catch up with the technology of the Roman Empire. Thanks Christianity!
And during the Renaissance Period, guys like Da Vinci had to hide their work from the church or they would have been killed.
I've thought about it before...civilization would be 1,000 years into the future RIGHT NOW if not for the Dark Ages.Comment
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What do you mean?
It was the Christian Church (and you can pretty much insert ANY religion) that was anti-science and burned libraries and killed anyone who dared to think for themselves.
Hell, they damn near single-handedly dumbed down the entire Western Civilization's gene pool just by killing so many smart people.
What do you mean it would have happened without Christianity? It didn't happen BEFORE Christianity. The Greeks, the Romans...they progressed. Christianity brought the Dark Ages and 1000 years of regressing backwards.-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.ComComment
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what Robbie said...Comment
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They burned over 50,000 (!!) women in France alone in the 13th to 17th century - go watch the video of that pilot getting burned alive by those savages, again in the name of religion, and then imagine it with a women. Accused, beaten, tortured
"questioned", often raped, humiliated, degraded, starved, dehydrated, then led to a pyre and burned in front of her family, friends, and accusers.
Just for 10 minutes, I would like you to go back in time and watch an innocent woman being tortured and burned, watch her skin slough off, hear her screams and smell the burning human flesh, and then come back here and claim Christianity, or any religion, is necessary.
Most likely you'd throw up for hours, need therapy, have PTSD, and maybe rethink things. Imagine being her kid, watching your mother burn, being told you were the spawn of evil, hated and reviled all your (probably short) life, all so someone could take your few possessions in the name of religion.
Dude, I don't care what those scumbags have ever claimed they did. They also claimed to cure diseases they didn't cure, bring people back to life, win wars they didn't win, end droughts they didn't end, on and on. They basically take credit for everything good that happens, and kill or torture or lie to everyone else. Remember Abu Ghraib? That chaotic mess of a prison? That was the middle ages writ small. All caused by torturing devils who gained power by telling stories.
Communism is the same playbook. They all are. "Believe in this bullshit that has no proof or basis whatsoever because it sounds good, and surrender your mind and will to a greater power who will do all the deciding for you. "Comment
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this might be interesting for you Science owes much to both Christianity and the Middle Ages : Soapbox ScienceComment
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and one for you because you're so sweet
The Dark Age Myth: An Atheist Reviews "God's Philosophers" | Strange NotionsComment
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well first off you're an asshole for making assumptions that I agree with Christianity, secondly I probably know more about the misdeeds of the church than you do, and third ..move on it's 2015They burned over 50,000 (!!) women in France alone in the 13th to 17th century - go watch the video of that pilot getting burned alive by those savages, again in the name of religion, and then imagine it with a women. Accused, beaten, tortured
"questioned", often raped, humiliated, degraded, starved, dehydrated, then led to a pyre and burned in front of her family, friends, and accusers.
Just for 10 minutes, I would like you to go back in time and watch an innocent woman being tortured and burned, watch her skin slough off, hear her screams and smell the burning human flesh, and then come back here and claim Christianity, or any religion, is necessary.
Most likely you'd throw up for hours, need therapy, have PTSD, and maybe rethink things. Imagine being her kid, watching your mother burn, being told you were the spawn of evil, hated and reviled all your (probably short) life, all so someone could take your few possessions in the name of religion.
Dude, I don't care what those scumbags have ever claimed they did. They also claimed to cure diseases they didn't cure, bring people back to life, win wars they didn't win, end droughts they didn't end, on and on. They basically take credit for everything good that happens, and kill or torture or lie to everyone else. Remember Abu Ghraib? That chaotic mess of a prison? That was the middle ages writ small. All caused by torturing devils who gained power by telling stories.
Communism is the same playbook. They all are. "Believe in this bullshit that has no proof or basis whatsoever because it sounds good, and surrender your mind and will to a greater power who will do all the deciding for you. "Comment
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I just read that Grapesoda...I have to say that in my opinion this another attempt at re-writing history. Much the same way that the "man-made" climate change people do. lol
To say that the Catholic Church (and that was THE Christian religion at the time) was ever helpful in any way to science during the Dark Ages is just wishful thinking.
Apparently this guy is on a mission to change the way people think about the Church.
But to say that people weren't burnt at the stake for having scientific ideas...isn't the same as pushing scientific exploration. lol
The Dark Ages are known as the "Dark Ages" for a very good reason. And the Renaissance is called the "Renaissance" for a good reason too.
If the Church hadn't done what it did...there never would have been a need for a "Renaissance" and we would be 1,000 years ahead in civilization and technology.
When the Romans had more technology and a better quality of life than most people in the U.S. had in 1900...that says a lot about what the Church did.
To me...the modern day analogy is Islam.
They are just behind the Christian religion by a few hundred years.
But they are attempting to do the same exact thing as the Christian Church did in the Dark Ages.
Go backwards is the goal.
-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.ComComment
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like you Robbie I had always held a very negative opinion of the church however I had to let that go...and the romansI just read that Grapesoda...I have to say that in my opinion this another attempt at re-writing history. Much the same way that the "man-made" climate change people do. lol
To say that the Catholic Church (and that was THE Christian religion at the time) was ever helpful in any way to science during the Dark Ages is just wishful thinking.
Apparently this guy is on a mission to change the way people think about the Church.
But to say that people weren't burnt at the stake for having scientific ideas...isn't the same as pushing scientific exploration. lol
The Dark Ages are known as the "Dark Ages" for a very good reason. And the Renaissance is called the "Renaissance" for a good reason too.
If the Church hadn't done what it did...there never would have been a need for a "Renaissance" and we would be 1,000 years ahead in civilization and technology.
When the Romans had more technology and a better quality of life than most people in the U.S. had in 1900...that says a lot about what the Church did.
To me...the modern day analogy is Islam.
They are just behind the Christian religion by a few hundred years.
But they are attempting to do the same exact thing as the Christian Church did in the Dark Ages.
Go backwards is the goal.
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that seems to be up in the air.... I can state this with complete certainty: I would not want to be living in the 1900's.
I'm not trying to do anything because I have no dog in the fight...I came across the statement about abolitionist and Christians and posted it, then was immediately attacked... I for one would NEVER think anyone here at GFY was completely closed minded and heavily opinionate... like say a hardcore Christian
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If I made that assumption I apologize - I usually reign in my posts but that one got away from me. And yeah, move on, but I have a weak spot for innocent people who were crushed and had no idea it would ever get better, like the kids sent to siberia by stalin. In that way I agree with Jared Diamond, i.e. that agricultural and sedentary civilization is the worst mistake humanity ever made.Comment
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I have to go with what I learned in college over 30 years ago in Western Civ and all my Humanities classes.
And in every one of those classes...when we got to the eras of architecture, art, music, and literature...the Church was large and in charge during the middle ages. And that's why there are no secular examples of greatness (plenty of Church related greatness though).
So to say that NOW...people are rewriting history with articles on the internet doesn't phase me or change my opinion.
History doesn't change. And in my learning experience...BEFORE people started trying to slant history...the Catholic Church was a monstrosity that was extremely detrimental to human development.-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.ComComment
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Christianity held back science and fought science every step of the way (they still are) Every major advancement in science has been made at the mortal peril to the pioneers who fought for their achievements. Christians were and are the roadblock to pretty much all forward movement of this species. But Islam looks like it's going to give them some competition in the regression dept.
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i'm not defending the Church's abominations, we would have progressed faster if the Church had been more progressive but please tell me these countries/civilizations which weren't under the influence of the Church during the Middle Ages that flourished?
We aren't where we are today without the role of the Church, you can't re-write history.
It's preposterous to think that Western Civilization developed into greatness, subjective as 'greatness' is, and that its' most powerful influence and institution had no or little role in it.I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!Comment
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There were no Western civilizations during the Dark Ages that were in a position to flourish. The Catholic Church was in control.
As I said earlier...I'm gonna go with the 4 college semesters of Western Civ that taught me history. And also the 4 semesters of Humanities (the arts) to form my educated thoughts.
I'm not the one trying to re-write history.
As far as our "greatness". It stems from the Renaissance and a rediscovery of what the Greeks and Romans did.
If not for the Greek and Roman forms of govt. there wouldn't even be a Republic like the one we live in now.
And the Romans were so far ahead technologically that it's ridiculous what happened to mankind during the Dark Ages.
This subject isn't one that I would think you'd want to spend a lot of time researching. But since I had to do it to get my degree (as do all liberal arts students), I know the history of Western Civilization pretty well.
Can't speak for the civilizations of Asia or Africa.
But Western Civ? Every person here who went to college knows what I'm talking about.
Western Civ and Humanities were required courses for a liberal arts degree.-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.ComComment
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Pretty much - western civ lost so many things during the dark ages, when the church had complete control. Roman architecture, metallurgy, agriculture, glassware, refining, engineering, etc was only really exceeded in the 1800 - 1900s.
All one has to do is look at the treatment of Galileo or Giordano Bruno to see what happened to innovators. That is why society stagnated, plagues were common, child death was over 50%, serfdom and starvation were common. Only after people stopped believing and started resisting the power of the church did good things begin to happen.
England is a great example. A regional power, after the dissolution of the monasteries gave the monarch control of its wealth, elizabeth I created the most powerful navy in the world. You no longer had a bunch of old pedophiles living off sinecurial incomes, you had money going to people who produced.
There may have been "other factors" but the church was the vehicle that drove it all.Comment
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