House votes to give NSA even more spying power...

**sandman!** · 05-15-2015, 04:39 PM

**dyna mo** · 05-15-2015, 04:56 PM

i'm going to ask you a serious question.

i am not picking sides and this is not a loaded question.

do you think it's right or wrong for Americans to give up certain freedoms for national security?

**crockett** · 05-15-2015, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by dyna mo

i'm going to ask you a serious question.

i am not picking sides and this is not a loaded question.

do you think it's right or wrong for Americans to give up certain freedoms for national security?

I think Benjamin Franklin summed it up perfectly..

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Nothing the NSA is doing is stopping terrorist attacks.. They haven't been able to provide proof of a single attack stopped by their spying, meanwhile several attacks have happened under the watch of their spying.

The simple fact is they are collecting far too much data to be able to do anything with it in real time. The data they are collecting isn't meant to stop anything but rather to be used against someone after the fact. Meaning they arrest you then look for a crime.. That's not in our Constitution.

**dyna mo** · 05-15-2015, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by crockett

I think Benjamin Franklin summed it up perfectly..

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Nothing the NSA is doing is stopping terrorist attacks.. They haven't been able to provide proof of a single attack stopped by their spying, meanwhile several attacks have happened under the watch of their spying.

The simple fact is they are collecting far too much data to be able to do anything with it in real time. The data they are collecting isn't meant to stop anything but rather to be used against someone after the fact.

i don't agree/disagree.

that said, that quote is taken out of context.

Franklin was writing not as a subject being asked to cede his liberty to government, but in his capacity as a legislator being asked to renounce his power to tax lands under his jurisdiction. In other words, the “essential liberty” to which Franklin referred was thus not what we would think of today as civil liberties but, rather, the right of self-governance of a legislature in the interests of collective security.

What Ben Franklin Really Said

**crockett** · 05-15-2015, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by dyna mo

i don't agree nor disagree.

that said, that quote is taken out of context.

Franklin was writing not as a subject being asked to cede his liberty to government, but in his capacity as a legislator being asked to renounce his power to tax lands notionally under his jurisdiction. In other words, the ?essential liberty? to which Franklin referred was thus not what we would think of today as civil liberties but, rather, the right of self-governance of a legislature in the interests of collective security.

What Ben Franklin Really Said

That's fine, but I can still repeat the same words he said and use them in context which I choose. He said the words but they can be re-spoken because they are words and different meaning can be implied.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." crockett asshole on GFY 5/15/15

**dyna mo** · 05-15-2015, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by crockett

That's fine, but I can still repeat the same words he said and use them in context which I choose. He said the words but they can be re-spoken because they are words and different meaning can be implied.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." crockett asshole on GFY 5/15/15

well fucking played.

**Barry-xlovecam** · 05-15-2015, 06:06 PM

Code:

                 yeas	nays	pres	nv
republican	196	47	 	1
democratic	142	41	 	5
independent	 	 	 	 
totals	        338	88	 	6

It's a bi-partisan agreement

**onwebcam** · 05-15-2015, 07:27 PM

politics as usual....

**Rochard** · 05-15-2015, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by dyna mo

do you think it's right or wrong for Americans to give up certain freedoms for national security?

I always gets blasted for this, but frankly.... I just don't care. If the US government wants to read my texts and my emails they can knock themselves out. There is just absolutely nothing of interest there.

And please don't tell me "this is what they said when the Nazis came to power". No, it isn't.

**crockett** · 05-15-2015, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by Rochard

I always gets blasted for this, but frankly.... I just don't care. If the US government wants to read my texts and my emails they can knock themselves out. There is just absolutely nothing of interest there.

And please don't tell me "this is what they said when the Nazis came to power". No, it isn't.

Nothing of interest but anyone can be made a criminal if they have 5 years of your texts and phone calls to choose from. It's already been shown that information the NSA has snooped on "non terrorists" has been shared with the FBI & police.

You don't fight this stuff because you know you aren't a terrorist, you fight it because it will most certainly be used for other things down the road as it already has been..

**MiamiBoyz** · 05-15-2015, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by dyna mo

i'm going to ask you a serious question.

i am not picking sides and this is not a loaded question.

do you think it's right or wrong for Americans to give up certain freedoms for national security?

Is it worth it to live without those freedoms? NO

Will the terrorist have won if we continue to have freedoms taken away? YES

No true American would have voted to increase this unconstitutional spying - PERIOD

**pimpmaster9000** · 05-16-2015, 02:34 AM

americans will sell their assholes for the illusion of """""""""security""""""""" so that their government can """"""""defend"""""""" them

reality: 15 year old weed dealers do not use mobile phones or the net any more in my country because they got wise

Im SURE alquaida is posting its plans on facebook

carry on

**seeandsee** · 05-16-2015, 05:36 AM

lol they tracking all data, what else you have to say abotu it

**Joshua G** · 05-16-2015, 06:18 AM

i personally dont worry that the government will be hijacked by a nazi-like cult & subvert the public with their own personal data. theres no proof the government is arresting people first & using their data as evidence after the fact.

so far the government has been doing all this snooping & collecting, & no political groups have gone to jail. small time drug dealers seem to not worry about texting their product on their iphones, i seen this personally. underage drinkers are not being arrested for posting drunk pics on facebook.

we have this constitution that pretty much guarantees the state will never use the tools of fascism on the people. although numerous constitutional principles are ignored, some are bedrock, like free speech & guns. the cops do a great job keeping the peace, although some people beg to differ depending on their worldview.

my feeling is, im powerless over it, & im not gonna riot over it. im more worried about tomorrows NBA game 7.

**klinton** · 05-16-2015, 06:27 AM

ok ok ok, sleep well....

for the rest: https://ssd.eff.org/

Originally posted by Joshua G

so far the government has been doing all this snooping & collecting, & no political groups have gone to jail. small time drug dealers seem to not worry about texting their product on their iphones, i seen this personally. underage drinkers are not being arrested for posting drunk pics on facebook.

we have this constitution that pretty much guarantees the state will never use the tools of fascism on the people. although numerous constitutional principles are ignored, some are bedrock, like free speech & guns. the cops do a great job keeping the peace, although some people beg to differ depending on their worldview.

my feeling is, im powerless over it, & im not gonna riot over it. im more worried about tomorrows NBA game 7.

**dyna mo** · 05-16-2015, 06:33 AM

Originally posted by crucifissio

americans will sell their assholes for the illusion of """""""""security""""""""" so that their government can """"""""defend"""""""" them

reality: 15 year old weed dealers do not use mobile phones or the net any more in my country because they got wise

Im SURE alquaida is posting its plans on facebook

carry on

Originally posted by klinton

ok ok ok, sleep well....

for the rest: https://ssd.eff.org/

you two need to stop contradicting each other.

**crockett** · 05-16-2015, 06:42 AM

Originally posted by Joshua G

i personally dont worry that the government will be hijacked by a nazi-like cult & subvert the public with their own personal data. theres no proof the government is arresting people first & using their data as evidence after the fact.

so far the government has been doing all this snooping & collecting, & no political groups have gone to jail. small time drug dealers seem to not worry about texting their product on their iphones, i seen this personally. underage drinkers are not being arrested for posting drunk pics on facebook.

we have this constitution that pretty much guarantees the state will never use the tools of fascism on the people. although numerous constitutional principles are ignored, some are bedrock, like free speech & guns. the cops do a great job keeping the peace, although some people beg to differ depending on their worldview.

my feeling is, im powerless over it, & im not gonna riot over it. im more worried about tomorrows NBA game 7.

The very fact that this spying is going on shows that the Constitution means nothing to them.

The Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution provides, "[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

If they decide they want to do something,. they will do it and worry about figuring out a way to make it "legal".

This very vote shows EXACTLY that. The NSA just went ahead and did what they wanted to do. The Supreme court ruled they over reached their legal abilities. The House has now voted to make it legal and "extend" their abilities..

There is one thing which has always run true, when govts get power they do not give it back with out being forced. When they are given a hammer for a specific job it isn't long before they want to use that hammer on every job..

Look at Swat teams for a clear example of this abuse. They were always intended for the most violent raids, not ordinary warrant searches and so on. Now they are used indiscriminately because the cops have them and all their equipment, so why not use it? That's exactly what they do now, they use them for everything they can..

The spying has started out with the excuse of terrorism but we have already seen cases where the FBI & police have been tipped off by the NSA for crimes having nothing to do with terrorism. It wont be long before they decide it's ok to use it against "suspected" drug dealers, for saving the children, for catching you cheat on your taxes.. It doesn't end once they are give the power they just expand that power. Every govt has done this and it's up to the people to stop it.

**MiamiBoyz** · 05-16-2015, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Joshua G

i personally dont worry that the government will be hijacked by a nazi-like cult & subvert the public with their own personal data. theres no proof the government is arresting people first & using their data as evidence after the fact.

my feeling is, im powerless over it, & im not gonna riot over it. im more worried about tomorrows NBA game 7.

WOW - apathy, passivity, and hopelessness have rarely been expressed in such an eloquent way.

Have to say that you are buying right into the government's scheme of systematically tearing down the constitution which is the foundation on which this country was built.

The biggest threat to our country is not some boogeyman terrorist group hiding in the darkness but located right in Washington DC and in plain sight. It is called the US government.

**pimpmaster9000** · 05-16-2015, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by dyna mo

you two need to stop contradicting each other.

the local kids work for somebody and this somebody told them not to use phones...they are 15 they can not be arrested for drug dealing ect...they have no guns, no phones, no weed no nothing LOL you give them money and they come back in 5 min

**dyna mo** · 05-16-2015, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by crucifissio

the local kids work for somebody and this somebody told them not to use phones...they are 15 they can not be arrested for drug dealing ect...they have no guns, no phones, no weed no nothing LOL you give them money and they come back in 5 min

i see, you get your drugs for cheap serb sex slaves from the local kids.

**baddog** · 05-16-2015, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by crockett

I think Benjamin Franklin summed it up perfectly..

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns, the proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so he actually meant purchase a little temporary safety very literally. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.

**crockett** · 05-16-2015, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by baddog

He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns, the proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so he actually meant purchase a little temporary safety very literally. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.

Yes we have already covered this. Please read further before hitting the reply button and attempting to show us all how much you know.

**Joshua G** · 05-16-2015, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by crockett

The spying has started out with the excuse of terrorism but we have already seen cases where the FBI & police have been tipped off by the NSA for crimes having nothing to do with terrorism. It wont be long before they decide it's ok to use it against "suspected" drug dealers, for saving the children, for catching you cheat on your taxes.. It doesn't end once they are give the power they just expand that power. Every govt has done this and it's up to the people to stop it.

so where is your logic going - that cops will arrest people for being democrats? & how are the voters going to stop it? form a militia? vote the bums out of office? theres really no solution to whats happening behind closed doors in DC.

bottom line - all this is pushed by the defense industry. they have unlimited money & clout with generals & intelligence committee chairs. a public mutiny will not stop them. all you or I or anyone else can do, is set up a VPN, buy an AR15, a case of beer & vote rand paul.

**Robbie** · 05-16-2015, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by crockett

I think Benjamin Franklin summed it up perfectly..

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Nothing the NSA is doing is stopping terrorist attacks.. They haven't been able to provide proof of a single attack stopped by their spying, meanwhile several attacks have happened under the watch of their spying.

The simple fact is they are collecting far too much data to be able to do anything with it in real time. The data they are collecting isn't meant to stop anything but rather to be used against someone after the fact. Meaning they arrest you then look for a crime.. That's not in our Constitution.

We are in total and complete agreement on this.

**Robbie** · 05-16-2015, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by MiamiBoyz

The biggest threat to our country is not some boogeyman terrorist group hiding in the darkness but located right in Washington DC and in plain sight. It is called the US government.

Totally agree with this as well.

**dyna mo** · 05-16-2015, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by crockett

Nothing the NSA is doing is stopping terrorist attacks..

Obama claims otherwise. last i checked, he's still a democrat too.

"And as a consequence, we’ve saved lives," Obama claimed. "We know of at least 50 threats that have been averted because of this information not just in the United States, but, in some cases, threats here in Germany. So lives have been saved. And the encroachment on privacy has been strictly limited by a court-approved process to relate to these particular categories."

Obama On NSA Spying: "We Have Struck The Appropriate Balance" Of Privacy And Security | RealClearPolitics

**Robbie** · 05-16-2015, 12:07 PM

So far...every "plot" that the govt. has "thwarted" has been one that they started themselves with sting operations.

They put up fake profiles on social media. Then they start posting all kinds of pro-terrorist propaganda. And then when some mentally disturbed person answers them with interest...they come up with a "terrorist plot" and convince the idiot to try it.

Then they set up a sale of a fake "bomb" and then when the guy shows up to buy it...they arrest him and shout to the heavens about how they stopped a "terrorist plot".

Fucking ridiculous.

**pimpmaster9000** · 05-16-2015, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by dyna mo

i see, you get your drugs for cheap serb sex slaves from the local kids.

well the official purveyors of narcotics at the royal academy of arts and science were all out so I had to resort to procuring from the local kids, who do not carry phones, if that is ok with you

If I was in the USA I would contact my local cripp or blood but we have no gangs ect we are not a violent klingon lair like the USA

**crockett** · 05-16-2015, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by dyna mo

Obama claims otherwise. last i checked, he's still a democrat too.

"And as a consequence, we’ve saved lives," Obama claimed. "We know of at least 50 threats that have been averted because of this information not just in the United States, but, in some cases, threats here in Germany. So lives have been saved. And the encroachment on privacy has been strictly limited by a court-approved process to relate to these particular categories."

Obama On NSA Spying: "We Have Struck The Appropriate Balance" Of Privacy And Security | RealClearPolitics

I think we can all agree that in the case of the NSA and spying there are no democrats or republicans, but rather politicians whom are fucking us. I've complained about Obamas actions regarding the NSA many times here on GFY, but you guys choose to look with blinders on as if I green light anything a Democrat does.

I don't agree with everything Obama does, it's just you guys always bitch about right wing talking points you are told to bitch about so I always have to tell you how dumb the talking points are.

**crockett** · 05-16-2015, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by Joshua G

so where is your logic going - that cops will arrest people for being democrats? & how are the voters going to stop it? form a militia? vote the bums out of office? theres really no solution to whats happening behind closed doors in DC.

bottom line - all this is pushed by the defense industry. they have unlimited money & clout with generals & intelligence committee chairs. a public mutiny will not stop them. all you or I or anyone else can do, is set up a VPN, buy an AR15, a case of beer & vote rand paul.

Voting them out of office does nothing, because the new guys have less input than the guy they replaced. New guys typically don't get on the special committees and so on, specially if it's known they intend to go aginst the grain.

Pressure on the people with the current power is the only way to do it.. If tens of thousands of people were protesting Bohners office, Reid's office and other high ranking members of the house and senate with a unified voice of end the spying they would be forced to comply.

Civil disobedience works wonders if it has a unified goal. Instead they just encourage people to join teams and pretend one team is diffrent than the other. While they are diffrent in many areas, the NSA and spying is one area they are equally fucking everyone.

There is zero reason to bicker about democrats or republicans on this piticular matter. It should be something everyone should care about and be trying to stop.

**dyna mo** · 05-16-2015, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by crockett

I think we can all agree that in the case of the NSA and spying there are no democrats or republicans, but rather politicians whom are fucking us. I've complained about Obamas actions regarding the NSA many times here on GFY, but you guys choose to look with blinders on as if I green light anything a Democrat does.

I don't agree with everything Obama does, it's just you guys always bitch about right wing talking points you are told to bitch about so I always have to tell you how dumb the talking points are.

I think we can all agree that there is only one person who could have vetoed this bill.

**crockett** · 05-16-2015, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by dyna mo

I think we can all agree that there is only one person who could have vetoed this bill.

This bill hasn't made it to that point yet.. But WTG on trying to make it a team issue..

**Robbie** · 05-16-2015, 01:31 PM

I do hope that the President shows some spine and vetoes it.

During the 2008 campaign he spoke about how the govt. had instilled fear into us in order to create things like The Patriot Act.

But I think that now...the second that any politician talks about getting our freedom back, then suddenly a new "boogeyman" pops up and they all are too afraid themselves of being labeled "soft" on "terror" (whatever the fuck that means).

**dyna mo** · 05-16-2015, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by crockett

This bill hasn't made it to that point yet.. But WTG on trying to make it a team issue..

what sort of issue would you like it to be?

**crockett** · 05-16-2015, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by Robbie

I do hope that the President shows some spine and vetoes it.

During the 2008 campaign he spoke about how the govt. had instilled fear into us in order to create things like The Patriot Act.

But I think that now...the second that any politician talks about getting our freedom back, then suddenly a new "boogeyman" pops up and they all are too afraid themselves of being labeled "soft" on "terror" (whatever the fuck that means).

He's not going to. He wants it just as much as the rest of them. It will have a tougher time in the Senate, but it will likely pass there in one form or another. I know it will pass one way or the other, but I had hoped Congress would of tried to reel in some of the spying and not make it worse..

**crockett** · 05-16-2015, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by dyna mo

what sort of issue would you like it to be?

I can see this is to much of a big boy game for you to follow along. Perhaps you should play in one of the "Liberals hate our freedoms" topics which get posted daily.

**dyna mo** · 05-16-2015, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by crockett

I can see this is to much of a big boy game for you to follow along. Perhaps you should play in one of the "Liberals hate our freedoms" topics which get posted daily.

Do you mean too much? Because big boys know how to spell.

Either way, I asked you what sort of issue this is to you and you failed to be able to answer, apparently working on a team is a problem for you.

**crockett** · 05-16-2015, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by dyna mo

Do you mean too much? Because big boys know how to spell.

Either way, I asked you what sort of issue this is to you and you failed to be able to answer, apparently working on a team is a problem for you.

I think the issue is pretty clear.. There is a spying on American citizens issue..

**dyna mo** · 05-16-2015, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by crockett

I think the issue is pretty clear.. There is a spying on American citizens issue..

i think we can all agree that the bill won't be held up at all in the senate, so the last chance to get this stopped is a veto.

**dyna mo** · 05-16-2015, 04:36 PM

WH calls on Senate to pass USA Freedom Act | TheHill

The measure passed the House with a strong bipartisan vote this week, but Senate Republican leaders are pushing to pass a clean extension of the Patriot Act without any changes to the NSA's phone records program.

crockett, what are your thoughts on this?

**dyna mo** · 05-16-2015, 04:40 PM

House Passes USA Freedom Act to Curb NSA Spying | WIRED

IN A LANDSLIDE move today, the House voted to pass the USA Freedom Act, which would effectively shut down portions of the NSA?s controversial domestic spying program in their current form.

The bill, passed overwhelmingly by a vote of 338 to 88, would put an end to the government?s bulk collection of phone records from U.S. telecoms?a program first uncovered by USA Today in 2006 and re-exposed in 2013 by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden.

The bill instead calls for records to be retained by telecoms and forces the NSA to obtain court orders from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to gain access to them. It also requires the agency to use specific search terms to narrow its access to only relevant records.

crockett, what are your thoughts on this?

**klinton** · 05-16-2015, 05:47 PM

no idea what you are talking about, but it seems that you didnt understand - as usual - what was said.

Originally posted by dyna mo

you two need to stop contradicting each other.

**klinton** · 05-16-2015, 05:52 PM

exactly...do you really believe in honest politicians, not corrupted governments and not power greedy people in governments ?
they will always seek for more reasons and excuses to strip people from their basic rights and to brainwash them to make slaves from them
so yeah, the only solution to this is being smart and using..various methods to protect your privacy and basic rights

Originally posted by Robbie

I do hope that the President shows some spine and vetoes it.

During the 2008 campaign he spoke about how the govt. had instilled fear into us in order to create things like The Patriot Act.

But I think that now...the second that any politician talks about getting our freedom back, then suddenly a new "boogeyman" pops up and they all are too afraid themselves of being labeled "soft" on "terror" (whatever the fuck that means).

**dyna mo** · 05-16-2015, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by klinton

no idea what you are talking about, but it seems that you didnt understand - as usual - what was said.

you should actually put a little bit of effort in your zings, you know, try and make them at least somewhat believable.

**dyna mo** · 05-17-2015, 05:46 AM

crockett science, you're a dumbfuck. you fail at research. fuck, you fail at reading.

**Barry-xlovecam** · 05-17-2015, 05:57 AM

''bulk collection of phone data'' but is bulk collection of internet data mentioned? NO

I doubt this will make any real difference: Achmed and Mohammed are not going to be disclosing the latest terrorist bombing on their cell phones ... So, Congress and the Administration are just throwing a ''bone.''

**crockett** · 05-17-2015, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by dyna mo

crockett science, you're a dumbfuck. you fail at research. fuck, you fail at reading.

**dyna mo** · 05-17-2015, 07:03 AM

yup, typical libtard, when they're shown how fucking wrong they are, they try and deflect with a meme that makes no sense.

**pimpmaster9000** · 05-17-2015, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by dyna mo

yup, typical libtard, when they're shown how fucking wrong they are, they try and deflect with a meme that makes no sense.

and you are a typical 'mericunt

House votes to give NSA even more spying power...

House votes to give NSA even more spying power...

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