Upward Mobility Dead in the U.S.?

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  • Barefootsies
    Choice is an Illusion
    • Feb 2005
    • 42635
    #1

    Upward Mobility Dead in the U.S.?

    To find the answer, the Hopkins researchers undertook a massive study. They followed nearly 800 kids in Baltimore ? from first grade until their late-20s.

    They found that a child's fate is in many ways fixed at birth ? determined by family strength and the parents' financial status.

    The kids who got a better start ? because their parents were married and working ? ended up better off. Most of the poor kids from single-parent families stayed poor.

    Just 33 children ? out of nearly 800 ? moved from the low-income to high-income bracket. And a similarly small number born into low-income families had college degrees by the time they turned 28.
    SOURCE
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    Enough Said.

    "Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"
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    • slapass
      Too lazy to set a custom title
      • Nov 2002
      • 14625
      #2
      But what percent of the population is in the high income bracket? If I took 800 random people how many would be high income? This seems to prove the opposite as 4% got to the top.

      Edit ok I read it... nevermind hahahaha

        Comment

        • MaDalton
          I am Amazing Content!
          • Feb 2004
          • 39861
          #3
          no worries, the money will trickle down
          AmazingContent.com - providing only the best content and service since 2003
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            Comment

            • slapass
              Too lazy to set a custom title
              • Nov 2002
              • 14625
              #4
              The dumb thing is they wasted the article on two data points to create a human side and skipped any hard data.

                Comment

                • editeur
                  Confirmed User
                  • Nov 2013
                  • 252
                  #5
                  33 children — out of nearly 800 — moved from the low-income to high-income bracket.
                  4% is good enough. I wonder if there any stable country where poor ones have 4% chance to get rich.
                  BossTDS - Traffic Distribution System

                    Comment

                    • wehateporn
                      Promoting Debate on GFY
                      • Apr 2007
                      • 27176
                      #6
                      Long gone are the days when 12Clicks could simply startup a TGP
                      Last edited by wehateporn; 08-07-2014, 05:13 AM.

                        Comment

                        • johnnyloadproductions
                          Account Shutdown
                          • Oct 2008
                          • 3611
                          #7
                          Originally posted by Barefootsies
                          SOURCE
                          You bucked this trend though, didn't you?

                            Comment

                            • Barefootsies
                              Choice is an Illusion
                              • Feb 2005
                              • 42635
                              #8
                              Originally posted by slapass
                              The dumb thing is they wasted the article on two data points to create a human side and skipped any hard data.
                              That seems to be how many of these articles are written now-a-days. Yahoo has to be one of the worst, especially when it comes to football coverage. Somehow they manage to work in Tebow, among many other things, that have absolutely no relevance to the article.

                              Anyway, it was an interesting read on upward mobiltiy, at least in regard to their narrow focus. A more interesting one would be the immigrants and gas stations, convenience and grocery stores. Those who come here as legal immigrants, and their ability to achieve the "American Dream".

                              Should You Email Your Members?

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                              Enough Said.

                              "Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

                                Comment

                                • Barefootsies
                                  Choice is an Illusion
                                  • Feb 2005
                                  • 42635
                                  #9
                                  Originally posted by wehateporn
                                  Long gone are the days when 12Clicks could simply startup a TGP
                                  I doubt 12clicks is hurting for cash, and appears to be doing just fine.
                                  Should You Email Your Members?

                                  Link1 | Link2 | Link3

                                  Enough Said.

                                  "Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

                                    Comment

                                    • Barefootsies
                                      Choice is an Illusion
                                      • Feb 2005
                                      • 42635
                                      #10
                                      Originally posted by editeur
                                      4% is good enough. I wonder if there any stable country where poor ones have 4% chance to get rich.
                                      That is an interesting thought. The U.S. compared to other countries and their upward mobility.
                                      Should You Email Your Members?

                                      Link1 | Link2 | Link3

                                      Enough Said.

                                      "Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

                                        Comment

                                        • Bladewire
                                          StraightBro
                                          • Aug 2003
                                          • 56228
                                          #11
                                          Originally posted by editeur
                                          I wonder if there any stable country where poor ones have 4% chance to get rich.
                                          I depends on the masses accessibility to cheap video games, drugs and porn




                                          .


                                          Skype: CallTomNow

                                            Comment

                                            • Robbie
                                              Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                              • Aug 2002
                                              • 20960
                                              #12
                                              The findings of this research report remind me of the character on the hotels.com commercials on television: Captain Obvious! lol

                                              Next up...these researchers will do a study that will find that people who don't have any food are generally more hungry than people who do.
                                              -Robbie
                                              ClaudiaMarie.Com

                                                Comment

                                                • Barefootsies
                                                  Choice is an Illusion
                                                  • Feb 2005
                                                  • 42635
                                                  #13
                                                  Originally posted by Robbie
                                                  Next up...these researchers will do a study that will find that people who don't have any food are generally more hungry than people who do.
                                                  Should You Email Your Members?

                                                  Link1 | Link2 | Link3

                                                  Enough Said.

                                                  "Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

                                                    Comment

                                                    • ilnjscb
                                                      Confirmed User
                                                      • Jun 2009
                                                      • 8972
                                                      #14
                                                      Originally posted by Robbie
                                                      The findings of this research report remind me of the character on the hotels.com commercials on television: Captain Obvious! lol

                                                      Next up...these researchers will do a study that will find that people who don't have any food are generally more hungry than people who do.
                                                      I think they are intending to dispel the myth that America is the land of opportunity, that any given smart, hardworking poor person, or at least a large percentage of them, can "rise to the top".

                                                      Cue one of the 4%, who, though smart and hard-working, doesn't understand statistics:

                                                      "I was poor blablbabla and now I'm rich so that isn't right!"

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Jman
                                                          Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                          • Sep 2003
                                                          • 22837
                                                          #15
                                                          Guns will be easily accessible to the poor kids so they can start making their monies ;)
                                                          Orkestrait NSFW AI
                                                          FantasyXXX.AI
                                                          Email: [email protected] TG: @jman1216

                                                            Comment

                                                            • L-Pink
                                                              working on my tan
                                                              • Mar 2005
                                                              • 39151
                                                              #16
                                                              Originally posted by Jman
                                                              Guns will be easily accessible to the poor kids so they can start making their monies ;)
                                                              A good way to lower shooting stats would be to send these kids to marksmanship school. If they are skilled enough to hit what they aim at innocent bystanders will be safer and shooting stats will fall.

                                                              Want to go 50/50 on a string of inner-city marksmanship schools? We could offer student loans back by the government, everyone wins!

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Rochard
                                                                  Jägermeister Test Pilot
                                                                  • Dec 2001
                                                                  • 75733
                                                                  #17
                                                                  My nephew just graduated from college.

                                                                  Total sob story - single mom, lived in a trailer, nasty part of town... It was clear his mother was unable to help get him through college. He did well in school, worked full time in school, part time in the book store at the college to pay off part of his tuition, and also was dorm supervisor to get free room and board. He graduated with honors, and only owes $10k on a $100k degree. He landed a job with a Fortune 500 company working in their mergers and acquisitions department, and makes six figures.

                                                                  Anyone can do it no matter what your circumstance. You just have to want it bad enough.
                                                                  Herschel Savage
                                                                  Brooklyn, NY

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • MiamiBoyz
                                                                      fgfdftre6
                                                                      • Oct 2012
                                                                      • 6690
                                                                      #18
                                                                      Someone has to clean houses, join the armed forces, work and shop at Walmart, suck cocks for $10 bucks, sell crack, pick strawberry's,, and collect welfare checks.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Jman
                                                                          Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                          • Sep 2003
                                                                          • 22837
                                                                          #19
                                                                          Originally posted by L-Pink
                                                                          A good way to lower shooting stats would be to send these kids to marksmanship school. If they are skilled enough to hit what they aim at innocent bystanders will be safer and shooting stats will fall.

                                                                          Want to go 50/50 on a string of inner-city marksmanship schools? We could offer student loans back by the government, everyone wins!
                                                                          WINNING!!!

                                                                          Lesson number 1, you DON'T hold a gun sideways to shoot ;)
                                                                          Orkestrait NSFW AI
                                                                          FantasyXXX.AI
                                                                          Email: [email protected] TG: @jman1216

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • The Porn Nerd
                                                                              Living The Dream
                                                                              • Jun 2009
                                                                              • 19784
                                                                              #20
                                                                              Great - so "the Plan" by the 1% is working just fine. Cool.
                                                                              My Affiliate Programs:
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                                                                                • 12clicks
                                                                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                  • Jan 2001
                                                                                  • 19813
                                                                                  #21
                                                                                  Originally posted by wehateporn
                                                                                  Long gone are the days when 12Clicks could simply startup a TGP
                                                                                  its interesting to see what the bottom imagines the top does (or did)
                                                                                  I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • 12clicks
                                                                                      Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                      • Jan 2001
                                                                                      • 19813
                                                                                      #22
                                                                                      Originally posted by The Porn Nerd
                                                                                      Great - so "the Plan" by the 1% is working just fine. Cool.
                                                                                      the plan of the 1% is to succeed. If you want to be in the 1%, work harder or smarter than you currently are.

                                                                                      it really is just that simple.
                                                                                      I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • Bladewire
                                                                                          StraightBro
                                                                                          • Aug 2003
                                                                                          • 56228
                                                                                          #23
                                                                                          Originally posted by 12clicks
                                                                                          its interesting to see what the bottom imagines the top does (or did)
                                                                                          Wooops! different conversation, carry on!
                                                                                          Last edited by Bladewire; 08-08-2014, 07:19 AM.


                                                                                          Skype: CallTomNow

                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                            • Robbie
                                                                                              Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                                                              • Aug 2002
                                                                                              • 20960
                                                                                              #24
                                                                                              Upward mobility isn't dead.

                                                                                              I do believe the local, state, and federal govt. are not helping the situation with some of the repressive laws they pass here and there.

                                                                                              But yes, you can still work you way up from the bottom to the top.

                                                                                              Problem for 99.9% of people is...it takes an EXCEPTIONAL person to do so. And always has.
                                                                                              Most folks who start at the bottom are raised in an environment of govt. assistance. They see their parents and relatives and community receiving money, food stamps, housing assistance, etc. from the govt. from the time they are kids.

                                                                                              That makes a big impression on you. When you are a kid, your parents are your hero. And it becomes ingrained in them as kids.

                                                                                              It's a big conundrum, because these families actually do need that assistance. But at the same time it perpetuates it onto the next generation.

                                                                                              But there was never a huge percentage of people in history that moved from the bottom to the top.

                                                                                              As I said, it has always taken an exceptional person with ambition, drive, intelligence and the willingness to do whatever it takes to get to the top.
                                                                                              Those kind of people do still exist. And they are the ones who shun the govt. "assistance" when they become adults and see the bigger picture.

                                                                                              Those kind of people have no desire to live in a prison of their own creation and have the desire to become something in life. You can't do that when you are dependent on govt. assistance.

                                                                                              That's why it's so hard to break out.

                                                                                              But just like I did when I toured in bands...some people WANT something so bad that they will live in a tiny place and eat bologna sandwiches and sacrifice to move up.

                                                                                              They want it.
                                                                                              -Robbie
                                                                                              ClaudiaMarie.Com

                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                • arock10
                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                  • Jan 2006
                                                                                                  • 6217
                                                                                                  #25
                                                                                                  Originally posted by 12clicks
                                                                                                  its interesting to see what the bottom imagines the top does (or did)
                                                                                                  We don't want to imagine your gay sex fantasies
                                                                                                  Sup

                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                    • aka123
                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                      • Jul 2014
                                                                                                      • 4450
                                                                                                      #26
                                                                                                      Upward mobility dead?

                                                                                                      I would say that it has always been that way. Few "hero stories" don't make much difference. The results are pretty much the same in all over the world, although in more equal societies the variation is greater than in less equal societies.

                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                        • aka123
                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                          • Jul 2014
                                                                                                          • 4450
                                                                                                          #27
                                                                                                          Originally posted by Barefootsies
                                                                                                          That is an interesting thought. The U.S. compared to other countries and their upward mobility.
                                                                                                          It's not just about "upward mobility". If 80 % population live in shit hole, some few getting up won't make much difference. Also the starting point has to be examined as well as the general well being and economics.

                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                            • Robbie
                                                                                                              Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                                                                              • Aug 2002
                                                                                                              • 20960
                                                                                                              #28
                                                                                                              Originally posted by aka123
                                                                                                              Upward mobility dead?

                                                                                                              I would say that it has always been that way. Few "hero stories" don't make much difference. The results are pretty much the same in all over the world, although in more equal societies the variation is greater than in less equal societies.
                                                                                                              What society would you say is the most "equal"

                                                                                                              And by "equal" do you mean bringing the standards down to a level that slackers and people who are just plain out lazy can attain?

                                                                                                              Or do you mean a society that pushes people to succeed?

                                                                                                              If you think about it...that's really the 2 differing arguments in Western Society:
                                                                                                              Do you create "equality" by making everybody average...or do you demand excellence (which is not so good for people who don't have the ability or desire to attain it)?
                                                                                                              -Robbie
                                                                                                              ClaudiaMarie.Com

                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                • arock10
                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                  • Jan 2006
                                                                                                                  • 6217
                                                                                                                  #29
                                                                                                                  Originally posted by Robbie
                                                                                                                  Upward mobility isn't dead.

                                                                                                                  I do believe the local, state, and federal govt. are not helping the situation with some of the repressive laws they pass here and there.

                                                                                                                  But yes, you can still work you way up from the bottom to the top.

                                                                                                                  Problem for 99.9% of people is...it takes an EXCEPTIONAL person to do so. And always has.
                                                                                                                  Most folks who start at the bottom are raised in an environment of govt. assistance. They see their parents and relatives and community receiving money, food stamps, housing assistance, etc. from the govt. from the time they are kids.

                                                                                                                  That makes a big impression on you. When you are a kid, your parents are your hero. And it becomes ingrained in them as kids.

                                                                                                                  It's a big conundrum, because these families actually do need that assistance. But at the same time it perpetuates it onto the next generation.

                                                                                                                  But there was never a huge percentage of people in history that moved from the bottom to the top.

                                                                                                                  As I said, it has always taken an exceptional person with ambition, drive, intelligence and the willingness to do whatever it takes to get to the top.
                                                                                                                  Those kind of people do still exist. And they are the ones who shun the govt. "assistance" when they become adults and see the bigger picture.

                                                                                                                  Those kind of people have no desire to live in a prison of their own creation and have the desire to become something in life. You can't do that when you are dependent on govt. assistance.

                                                                                                                  That's why it's so hard to break out.

                                                                                                                  But just like I did when I toured in bands...some people WANT something so bad that they will live in a tiny place and eat bologna sandwiches and sacrifice to move up.

                                                                                                                  They want it.
                                                                                                                  I'm sure the wealthy and large corporation receive 0 gov assistance... Definitely nothing like long term tax rates at 15% while the rest of us pay up to 35%
                                                                                                                  Sup

                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                    • Barefootsies
                                                                                                                      Choice is an Illusion
                                                                                                                      • Feb 2005
                                                                                                                      • 42635
                                                                                                                      #30
                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Robbie
                                                                                                                      As I said, it has always taken an exceptional person with ambition, drive, intelligence and the willingness to do whatever it takes to get to the top.
                                                                                                                      Those kind of people do still exist. And they are the ones who shun the govt. "assistance" when they become adults and see the bigger picture.

                                                                                                                      Those kind of people have no desire to live in a prison of their own creation and have the desire to become something in life. You can't do that when you are dependent on govt. assistance.
                                                                                                                      Agreed. I remember my grandmother always talked down about those who accept government assistance and would not even rent to them. If she found out someone was on government handouts, especially a male (it was called general assistance at the time) she would go off about them being on the government tit, lazy, etc.. I remember my mother working double shifts around Christmas time so that we could have pretty much everything we wanted (within reason) @ the holidays.

                                                                                                                      In short, you make a valid point about your parents setting a good example.

                                                                                                                      Should You Email Your Members?

                                                                                                                      Link1 | Link2 | Link3

                                                                                                                      Enough Said.

                                                                                                                      "Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                        • Barefootsies
                                                                                                                          Choice is an Illusion
                                                                                                                          • Feb 2005
                                                                                                                          • 42635
                                                                                                                          #31
                                                                                                                          Originally posted by Rochard
                                                                                                                          Anyone can do it no matter what your circumstance. You just have to want it bad enough.
                                                                                                                          Very true. It's easy to talk about wanting to be on MTV Cribs. It's a wee bit harder to make it happen.

                                                                                                                          Should You Email Your Members?

                                                                                                                          Link1 | Link2 | Link3

                                                                                                                          Enough Said.

                                                                                                                          "Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                            • aka123
                                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                                              • Jul 2014
                                                                                                                              • 4450
                                                                                                                              #32
                                                                                                                              Originally posted by MiamiBoyz
                                                                                                                              Someone has to clean houses, join the armed forces, work and shop at Walmart, suck cocks for $10 bucks, sell crack, pick strawberry's,, and collect welfare checks.
                                                                                                                              Yes, but you could pay million per year for that. Well, not actually, not in current economy/ distribution. Point was just that salaries are not fixed in any way. Supply and demand makes them (in free markets.. well you don't have that, so there are other factors too).

                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                • Robbie
                                                                                                                                  Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                                                                                                  • Aug 2002
                                                                                                                                  • 20960
                                                                                                                                  #33
                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by arock10
                                                                                                                                  I'm sure the wealthy and large corporation receive 0 gov assistance... Definitely nothing like long term tax rates at 15% while the rest of us pay up to 35%
                                                                                                                                  Not sure what that has to do with upward mobility?

                                                                                                                                  And your argument about corp. paying taxes...I don't agree with it.
                                                                                                                                  Never have and never will. In my opinion the govt. already creates enough obstacles for business to thrive and employ more people with good paying jobs.

                                                                                                                                  And even IF the federal govt. gets MORE tax money...what then? Oh yeah, let's bomb the fuck out of Iraq because our govt. CREATED the problem by invading it in the first place and destroying their society.

                                                                                                                                  Yeah...taxes and big govt. , because the govt. deserves to get money that it didn't earn and then use it to kill people worldwide.

                                                                                                                                  Sorry, I just don't think like that. I'm a liberal-minded person. And that "Give the govt. all the money and let them rule the world" shit is anti-liberal.
                                                                                                                                  -Robbie
                                                                                                                                  ClaudiaMarie.Com

                                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                                    • aka123
                                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                      • Jul 2014
                                                                                                                                      • 4450
                                                                                                                                      #34
                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Robbie
                                                                                                                                      What society would you say is the most "equal"

                                                                                                                                      And by "equal" do you mean bringing the standards down to a level that slackers and people who are just plain out lazy can attain?

                                                                                                                                      Or do you mean a society that pushes people to succeed?

                                                                                                                                      If you think about it...that's really the 2 differing arguments in Western Society:
                                                                                                                                      Do you create "equality" by making everybody average...or do you demand excellence (which is not so good for people who don't have the ability or desire to attain it)?
                                                                                                                                      I was talking about economical and general equality. And by equality I meant equality, I haven't made up that term. I can tell my own viewpoint later, but now I gotta go.

                                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                                        • Robbie
                                                                                                                                          Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                                                                                                          • Aug 2002
                                                                                                                                          • 20960
                                                                                                                                          #35
                                                                                                                                          Originally posted by aka123
                                                                                                                                          I was talking about economical and general equality. And by equality I meant equality, I haven't made up that term. I can tell my own viewpoint later, but now I gotta go.
                                                                                                                                          I guess I was asking which society has that. And how do you achieve it?

                                                                                                                                          People are not equal. Some people are tall and very athletic and can play pro basketball and make 100 million dollars a year doing it.

                                                                                                                                          Some people are super smart and can do things that create a lot of wealth..and they are hired by big companies and make a lot of money.

                                                                                                                                          Some women are beautiful and become models and make millions of dollars based on their looks.

                                                                                                                                          People just are NOT equal.

                                                                                                                                          So the only way to make the exactly "equal" would be a society where everyone is un-remarkable in every way.
                                                                                                                                          You would have to lower the bar.

                                                                                                                                          So that there wouldn't be any "upward mobility" because there would be no "upward" to reach for.

                                                                                                                                          I'm extrapolating that out to it's logical conclusion.
                                                                                                                                          -Robbie
                                                                                                                                          ClaudiaMarie.Com

                                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                                            • Rochard
                                                                                                                                              Jägermeister Test Pilot
                                                                                                                                              • Dec 2001
                                                                                                                                              • 75733
                                                                                                                                              #36
                                                                                                                                              Originally posted by Barefootsies
                                                                                                                                              Very true. It's easy to talk about wanting to be on MTV Cribs. It's a wee bit harder to make it happen.

                                                                                                                                              I think Robbie said it above... It takes an "exceptional" person.

                                                                                                                                              My nephew He saw how his mother was living, and all of the mistakes she made, and said to himself "I want something better". His sister - my niece - moved clear across the country, from California to near where I grew up in NJ as a kid. The reason why is she had to get away from her mother. Their mother isn't a bad person - no drugs - but she just can't seem to get her shit together long enough to accomplish anything.
                                                                                                                                              Herschel Savage
                                                                                                                                              Brooklyn, NY

                                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                                • Rochard
                                                                                                                                                  Jägermeister Test Pilot
                                                                                                                                                  • Dec 2001
                                                                                                                                                  • 75733
                                                                                                                                                  #37
                                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by MiamiBoyz
                                                                                                                                                  Someone has to clean houses, join the armed forces, work and shop at Walmart, suck cocks for $10 bucks, sell crack, pick strawberry's,, and collect welfare checks.
                                                                                                                                                  There is nothing wrong with the military.... The military is great.

                                                                                                                                                  Some kids can't afford college after high school, and the military can help them. Others have no idea what to do and can't make it on their own.

                                                                                                                                                  I fell into the second group. I had left home at age fifteen, had zero direction, was into drugs, and was looking at a lifetime of dead end jobs. The military taught me how to take care of myself - put a roof over my head, fed me, gave me clothes... And taught me responsibility.

                                                                                                                                                  I wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't join the military.
                                                                                                                                                  Herschel Savage
                                                                                                                                                  Brooklyn, NY

                                                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                                                    • aka123
                                                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                      • Jul 2014
                                                                                                                                                      • 4450
                                                                                                                                                      #38
                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Robbie
                                                                                                                                                      I guess I was asking which society has that. And how do you achieve it?

                                                                                                                                                      People are not equal. Some people are tall and very athletic and can play pro basketball and make 100 million dollars a year doing it.

                                                                                                                                                      Some people are super smart and can do things that create a lot of wealth..and they are hired by big companies and make a lot of money.

                                                                                                                                                      Some women are beautiful and become models and make millions of dollars based on their looks.

                                                                                                                                                      People just are NOT equal.

                                                                                                                                                      So the only way to make the exactly "equal" would be a society where everyone is un-remarkable in every way.
                                                                                                                                                      You would have to lower the bar.

                                                                                                                                                      So that there wouldn't be any "upward mobility" because there would be no "upward" to reach for.

                                                                                                                                                      I'm extrapolating that out to it's logical conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                      Equality is a concept. It is not on/off switch, it is a scale. Equality in social context doesn't include genetics. We are not the same of course. Nevermind the rest of the animals, those have societes as well by the way.

                                                                                                                                                      So, we are talking about a scale, that measures equality and in this case amongst humans.

                                                                                                                                                      If we really get into this: forcing somebody down, as you made total equality to mean, isn't equality, because then not everyone has the same opportunities, which is unequal.
                                                                                                                                                      Last edited by aka123; 08-08-2014, 09:17 AM.

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                                                                                                                                                        • arock10
                                                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                          • Jan 2006
                                                                                                                                                          • 6217
                                                                                                                                                          #39
                                                                                                                                                          Originally posted by Robbie
                                                                                                                                                          Not sure what that has to do with upward mobility?

                                                                                                                                                          And your argument about corp. paying taxes...I don't agree with it.
                                                                                                                                                          Never have and never will. In my opinion the govt. already creates enough obstacles for business to thrive and employ more people with good paying jobs.

                                                                                                                                                          And even IF the federal govt. gets MORE tax money...what then? Oh yeah, let's bomb the fuck out of Iraq because our govt. CREATED the problem by invading it in the first place and destroying their society.

                                                                                                                                                          Yeah...taxes and big govt. , because the govt. deserves to get money that it didn't earn and then use it to kill people worldwide.

                                                                                                                                                          Sorry, I just don't think like that. I'm a liberal-minded person. And that "Give the govt. all the money and let them rule the world" shit is anti-liberal.
                                                                                                                                                          People were talking about poorer people being on government assistance.

                                                                                                                                                          You think if revenues are cut from the government they will cut the military or social services? I'm pretty sure the military and bombing campaigns will survive a lot better then food stamps
                                                                                                                                                          Sup

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                                                                                                                                                            • Robbie
                                                                                                                                                              Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                                                                                                                              • Aug 2002
                                                                                                                                                              • 20960
                                                                                                                                                              #40
                                                                                                                                                              Originally posted by arock10
                                                                                                                                                              You think if revenues are cut from the government they will cut the military or social services? I'm pretty sure the military and bombing campaigns will survive a lot better then food stamps
                                                                                                                                                              I think you are 100% right about that.

                                                                                                                                                              And I'm also thinking that our federal govt. has managed to pretty much set the world on fire with our foreign policy over the last 12 years.

                                                                                                                                                              That's just one of the reasons I think our govt. is out of control.

                                                                                                                                                              Spying on people, invading countries that did not attack us (Afghanistan never attacked us and neither did Iraq), trying to bully every country on Earth economically to do what we want them to do.

                                                                                                                                                              This is NOT what our country was founded on.

                                                                                                                                                              I think that we the people of the United States still believe in those founding principles, but our govt. does not.

                                                                                                                                                              They think they can run our lives here in the U.S. AND run everyone's lives around the world.

                                                                                                                                                              The results are plain to see: Our country is bankrupted and in 17 trillion dollars of debt, we are searched at airports like criminals, the police are abusive and deadly, our prisons are full (we are NUMBER ONE at incarcerating our own citizens), we are spied on by our own govt., and most of the people in the world do not like us.

                                                                                                                                                              And now we are gonna continue with the insanity of Iraq?
                                                                                                                                                              Those people do not want us there. We are "infidels" and "crusaders".

                                                                                                                                                              This is what happens when you give the govt. too much power and too much money.
                                                                                                                                                              -Robbie
                                                                                                                                                              ClaudiaMarie.Com

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                                                                                                                                                                • kane
                                                                                                                                                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                                  • Aug 2001
                                                                                                                                                                  • 20684
                                                                                                                                                                  #41
                                                                                                                                                                  To me it all depends on how you define well off. I think anyone, no matter what their background is or where they come from can work, learn a skill and eventually land a decent job that pays them good salary. They can live an upper middle class life. No, they won't be rich, but they will have a good life.

                                                                                                                                                                  Going beyond that takes something that most people simply don't have. You either need to start your own business or be able to do something aside from your job that has the potential to bring in big money. Unless you have that idea that can make you big money or you have an idea for a business that can be very profitable and you are able to start it, run it and grow it, you aren't going to rich (unless you get lucky and buy a winning lottery ticket).

                                                                                                                                                                  So there is upward mobility, it just has has a roof on it that restricts most people from going past a certain point and it has always been that way.

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                                                                                                                                                                    • Robbie
                                                                                                                                                                      Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                                                                                                                                      • Aug 2002
                                                                                                                                                                      • 20960
                                                                                                                                                                      #42
                                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by kane
                                                                                                                                                                      So there is upward mobility, it just has has a roof on it that restricts most people from going past a certain point and it has always been that way.
                                                                                                                                                                      I think a better way to put that is that most people have their own ceiling that stops them from going past a certain point.
                                                                                                                                                                      Whether it be average or below average intelligence, lack of drive or ambition, fear of losing, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                      -Robbie
                                                                                                                                                                      ClaudiaMarie.Com

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                                                                                                                                                                        • aka123
                                                                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                          • Jul 2014
                                                                                                                                                                          • 4450
                                                                                                                                                                          #43
                                                                                                                                                                          Originally posted by Robbie
                                                                                                                                                                          I think a better way to put that is that most people have their own ceiling that stops them from going past a certain point.
                                                                                                                                                                          Whether it be average or below average intelligence, lack of drive or ambition, fear of losing, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                          You put ridiculously amount of importance for personal skills. Money comes through transactions and in bigger scale from a thing called as economy. If you were some chicken shit farmers in the middle of nowhere with just your chickens, your ambitions would be limited by your chickens breeding pace. Just like you now live in a environment that sets the frame for all your life.

                                                                                                                                                                          We have ceilings like productivity, resources, demand and so on. Those are not fixed, but for most of us they are more or less fixed, as our influence to those is very little.

                                                                                                                                                                          There is just "so much" to divide per moment.
                                                                                                                                                                          Last edited by aka123; 08-08-2014, 01:33 PM.

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                                                                                                                                                                            • Robbie
                                                                                                                                                                              Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                                                                                                                                              • Aug 2002
                                                                                                                                                                              • 20960
                                                                                                                                                                              #44
                                                                                                                                                                              Originally posted by aka123
                                                                                                                                                                              You put ridiculously amount of importance for personal skills. Money comes through transactions and in bigger scale from a thing called as economy. If you were some chicken shit farmers in the middle of nowhere with just your chickens, your ambitions would be limited by your chickens breeding pace. Just like you now live in a environment that sets the frame for all your life.

                                                                                                                                                                              We have ceilings like productivity, resources, demand and so on. Those are not fixed, but for most of us they are more or less fixed, as our influence to those is very little.

                                                                                                                                                                              There is just "so much" to divide per moment.
                                                                                                                                                                              So what do you put "importance" on? Factors surrounding people that are out of their control?

                                                                                                                                                                              Got news for you...SOME people (the exceptional ones that do make it) don't stay in the midwest being farmers. They take a leap of faith and go where opportunity is.

                                                                                                                                                                              I never said it was for most people.

                                                                                                                                                                              As you said...99.9% of people never have and never will have what it takes to step up and do something like that.

                                                                                                                                                                              Wealth isn't a pie with just "so much to divide". I just don't believe that. I've seen it with my own eyes when my uneducated dirt poor grandfather became a multi-millionaire by...ironically...farming! (citrus industry in Fla.)

                                                                                                                                                                              And I myself have made a few million dollars since I entered the adult industry in the mid 1990's. Before that, I was a professional musician lucky to make a couple hundred bucks a week.

                                                                                                                                                                              When I decided that my days as a "rock star" were over...I turned my attention to being successful.
                                                                                                                                                                              And within a couple of years I was making more money than all the people I went to high school with who had been working on careers for 20 years.

                                                                                                                                                                              I know what you're saying...and yes, it will hold back average or uninspired people (talking about the United States...not some shithole thirdworld country). But the OPPORTUNITY is out there.

                                                                                                                                                                              Nobody is stuck in a shithole town working a nowhere job.

                                                                                                                                                                              Anybody can take the biggest chance of their lives and LEAVE that shithole and put their ass on the line. And IF they have what it takes...they can make it.

                                                                                                                                                                              Most don't. That's always been true. And always will be.
                                                                                                                                                                              Last edited by Robbie; 08-08-2014, 01:45 PM.
                                                                                                                                                                              -Robbie
                                                                                                                                                                              ClaudiaMarie.Com

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                                                                                                                                                                                • aka123
                                                                                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                  • Jul 2014
                                                                                                                                                                                  • 4450
                                                                                                                                                                                  #45
                                                                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by Robbie
                                                                                                                                                                                  So what do you put "importance" on? Factors surrounding people that are out of their control?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Got news for you...SOME people (the exceptional ones that do make it) don't stay in the midwest being farmers. They take a leap of faith and go where opportunity is.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I never said it was for most people.

                                                                                                                                                                                  As you said...99.9% of people never have and never will have what it takes to step up and do something like that.

                                                                                                                                                                                  And no, wealth isn't a pie with just "so much to divide". I just don't believe that. I've seen it with my own eyes when my uneducated dirt poor grandfather became a multi-millionaire by...ironically...farming! (citrus industry in Fla.)

                                                                                                                                                                                  I didn't say anything about some 99,99 % of people. And wealth is a pie to divide per moment. Wealth in general is not fixed of course, but per moment it is (spot picture), and can be even in the long term, here comes the economic equality in question (the "pie" issue). In enough equal societies there is variety, but the "base layer" rises. So in very rich society a bum could have beach house, but the rich ones have some resident house in Mars (assuming that is luxury).

                                                                                                                                                                                  You want it or like or not, but the big picture has huge influence in our lives, the part to where we can influence little to none. For example you can't influence to the time you live on. You weren't born at stone age, but not thanks to you as you had zero influence to it. Same goes with many things. We like to think that we are more in charge and succesful people especially like to think that the success is all because of their accomplishes. Well, it is a nice story anyways. And I don't mean that forward going wouldn't help to bring success, yes it does, but no matter how hard you tried at stone age, you couldn't travel in space, as space travel is a result from huge bunch of peoples work during thousands of years. So it's not just up to you.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Last edited by aka123; 08-08-2014, 02:00 PM.

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                                                                                                                                                                                    • Matt 26z
                                                                                                                                                                                      So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Apr 2002
                                                                                                                                                                                      • 18481
                                                                                                                                                                                      #46
                                                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Rochard
                                                                                                                                                                                      My nephew just graduated from college.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Total sob story - single mom, lived in a trailer, nasty part of town... It was clear his mother was unable to help get him through college. He did well in school, worked full time in school, part time in the book store at the college to pay off part of his tuition, and also was dorm supervisor to get free room and board. He graduated with honors, and only owes $10k on a $100k degree. He landed a job with a Fortune 500 company working in their mergers and acquisitions department, and makes six figures.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Anyone can do it no matter what your circumstance. You just have to want it bad enough.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Stop it. You aren't allowed to talk like that. It makes Jesse Jackson angry.

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                                                                                                                                                                                        • 12clicks
                                                                                                                                                                                          Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                                                          • Jan 2001
                                                                                                                                                                                          • 19813
                                                                                                                                                                                          #47
                                                                                                                                                                                          Originally posted by aka123
                                                                                                                                                                                          I didn't say anything about some 99,99 % of people. And wealth is a pie to divide per moment. Wealth in general is not fixed of course, but per moment it is (spot picture), and can be even in the long term, here comes the economic equality in question (the "pie" issue). In enough equal societies there is variety, but the "base layer" rises. So in very rich society a bum could have beach house, but the rich ones have some resident house in Mars (assuming that is luxury).

                                                                                                                                                                                          You want it or like or not, but the big picture has huge influence in our lives, the part to where we can influence little to none. For example you can't influence to the time you live on. You weren't born at stone age, but not thanks to you as you had zero influence to it. Same goes with many things. We like to think that we are more in charge and succesful people especially like to think that the success is all because of their accomplishes. Well, it is a nice story anyways. And I don't mean that forward going wouldn't help to bring success, yes it does, but no matter how hard you tried at stone age, you couldn't travel in space, as space travel is a result from huge bunch of peoples work during thousands of years. So it's not just up to you.
                                                                                                                                                                                          This IS the lament of the failure.
                                                                                                                                                                                          What you'll never admit is this.........you've never worked as hard as the successful. In fact you refuse to.
                                                                                                                                                                                          The rest is just the fantasy you tell yourself to get you to sleep at night instead of slitting your wrists.
                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

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                                                                                                                                                                                            • aka123
                                                                                                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                              • Jul 2014
                                                                                                                                                                                              • 4450
                                                                                                                                                                                              #48
                                                                                                                                                                                              Originally posted by 12clicks
                                                                                                                                                                                              This IS the lament of the failure.
                                                                                                                                                                                              What you'll never admit is this.........you've never worked as hard as the successful. In fact you refuse to.
                                                                                                                                                                                              The rest is just the fantasy you tell yourself to get you to sleep at night instead of slitting your wrists.
                                                                                                                                                                                              No, those are just facts. And I didn't say that hard working wouldn't help. And why would I want to slit my wrists open anyways?

                                                                                                                                                                                              Do you have some obsession to be succesful, or at least think you are? Where stands your wrist slitting line?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                • kane
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Aug 2001
                                                                                                                                                                                                  • 20684
                                                                                                                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by Robbie
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think a better way to put that is that most people have their own ceiling that stops them from going past a certain point.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Whether it be average or below average intelligence, lack of drive or ambition, fear of losing, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Correct. There are many people out there who might have an idea for a business that could be successful, but they are unwilling to take the risk it takes to make it happen. They are content in keeping their job and bringing home their steady paycheck so long as they have their weekends off and can take a vacation every summer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a friend who is a professional chef. She is amazing and cooks some fantastic food. She is always talking about opening a place of her own. I tell her she should. She knows that is a very risky business so she doesn't do it. The funny thing is, her husband makes enough money for them to live on so it isn't like they have to put everything on the line. However, she always has a good excuse why she doesn't either she doesn't want to risk taking out a loan or she doesn't know how to get investors or she can't find the right place. The laundry list of reasons why she can't is huge. Someone who rises above will take that risk and take the chance of failing. Someone who stays in their comfort zone will find a reason not to do it.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 12clicks
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                                                                      • Jan 2001
                                                                                                                                                                                                      • 19813
                                                                                                                                                                                                      #50
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by aka123
                                                                                                                                                                                                      No, those are just facts. And I didn't say that hard working wouldn't help. And why would I want to slit my wrists open anyways?

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Do you have some obsession to be succesful, or at least think you are? Where stands your wrist slitting line?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Son, the bottom line is there are those who go out and succeed and those who whine about other's successes on chat boards.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Anyone who does even a small amount of research understands that upward mobility is VERY alive and well in the US.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      There are just too many people who are unwilling to do the work it takes to become upwardly mobile.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Those are the facts
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

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