I don't know how to feel about the new Camaro Z/28

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  • edgeprod
    Permanently Gone
    • Mar 2004
    • 10019
    #1

    I don't know how to feel about the new Camaro Z/28

    On the one hand, it's got the specs. On the other hand, it's a $75,000 Chevy.

    http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20140...porsche-beater

    Of course, I've bought several $100k Dodges, so I may not be the best one to ask. .. it just seems like you have to pretty much not give a single fuck what other people think and just enjoy this purely for your own purposes.
    Tags: None
    • Rochard
      Jägermeister Test Pilot
      • Dec 2001
      • 75733
      #2
      I don't like the new Carmaros. I also don't like the new Mustangs either.

      A Camaro shouldn't cost $75k. At that point, you might as well buy a Vette.
      Herschel Savage
      Brooklyn, NY

        Comment

        • edgeprod
          Permanently Gone
          • Mar 2004
          • 10019
          #3
          Originally posted by Rochard
          A Camaro shouldn't cost $75k. At that point, you might as well buy a Vette.
          How does the $75k Camaro compare to the $75 Vette, though? Camaro has back seats, no?

            Comment

            • dyna mo
              just a fucking jerk
              • Dec 2008
              • 68184
              #4
              that car is fucking ridiculous and 1 of those you either get it or not cars. the price doesn't matter. the fact it's a camaro does not matter. the fact 99.9999% of the population doesn't get that car matter.


              that is 1 seriously fucking bad ass automobile.

                Comment

                • edgeprod
                  Permanently Gone
                  • Mar 2004
                  • 10019
                  #5
                  Originally posted by MrBottomTooth
                  They've always been useless seats except for the smallest of children. I have a 2000 Camaro SS convertible and the only thing the back seats get used for is grocery or shopping bags.
                  Haha, yeah. I've had about 10 F-bodies (preferred Firebirds, but had a couple of Camaro SS cars), and I think I've sat back there ONCE .. I'm 6'0, 185 lbs, haha.

                    Comment

                    • pornguy
                      Too lazy to set a custom title
                      • Mar 2003
                      • 62912
                      #6
                      Originally posted by MrBottomTooth
                      The price is ridiculous. I like how they make air conditioning an option at an extra cost.

                      I don't care how dedicated to racing you are, no one buys a $75,000 car these days without air conditioning.
                      My favorite is the Destination charge and something I refuse to pay on a car.
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                        • James - Mr. Skin
                          Confirmed User
                          • Jun 2012
                          • 737
                          #7
                          I think it looks MEAN! but yeah $75 for a Camaro?
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                            • Grapesoda
                              So Fucking Banned
                              • Jul 2003
                              • 46238
                              #8
                              Originally posted by edgeprod
                              On the one hand, it's got the specs. On the other hand, it's a $75,000 Chevy.

                              http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20140...porsche-beater

                              Of course, I've bought several $100k Dodges, so I may not be the best one to ask. .. it just seems like you have to pretty much not give a single fuck what other people think and just enjoy this purely for your own purposes.
                              here's the issue..... "The Z/28?s amazing performance and ability to outrun cars costing $100,000 more won?t change the minds of those who would look down on déclassé American iron, no matter its credentials"

                                Comment

                                • Choopa Phil
                                  Confirmed User
                                  • Apr 2009
                                  • 3965
                                  #9
                                  Looks like any old camaro to me. 75k...i laugh at the fool who pays this!
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                                    Comment

                                    • Jim_Gunn
                                      Confirmed User
                                      • Feb 2003
                                      • 5702
                                      #10
                                      Crazy price for an American muscle car. I purchased a Ram Air Trans Am brand new in 1996 with every option including the WS-6 package with the 5.7 liter engine and 17" wheels from the Corvette, functional hood scoop and upgraded suspension, T-tops and everything else except leather seats and that was only $28,500. Even with almost twenty years of inflation, $75k is rich.

                                        Comment

                                        • Rochard
                                          Jägermeister Test Pilot
                                          • Dec 2001
                                          • 75733
                                          #11
                                          Originally posted by edgeprod
                                          How does the $75k Camaro compare to the $75 Vette, though? Camaro has back seats, no?
                                          The entire point of the Camaro (and the Mustang for that matter) is that it is the "poor man's sports car". A base model Camaro costs $25k (source), but when you are talking about a high end model that costs three times the base model... That sort of defeats the entire purpose of the Camaro.

                                          If I had $75k to blow and had a choice between a Carmaro or a Vette, I'm going Vette.
                                          Herschel Savage
                                          Brooklyn, NY

                                            Comment

                                            • edgeprod
                                              Permanently Gone
                                              • Mar 2004
                                              • 10019
                                              #12
                                              Originally posted by Jim_Gunn
                                              Crazy price for an American muscle car. I purchased a Ram Air Trans Am brand new in 1996 with every option including the WS-6 package with the 5.7 liter engine and 17" wheels from the Corvette, functional hood scoop and upgraded suspension, T-tops and everything else except leather seats and that was only $28,500. Even with almost twenty years of inflation, $75k is rich.
                                              Yeah, I bought the 2000 WS6 brand new for about $30k as well .. but it wasn't even close to being able to hang with the top cars of its time. This Z/28 looks like it can.

                                                Comment

                                                • Paully
                                                  www.Max-Hardcore.com
                                                  • Nov 2005
                                                  • 1556
                                                  #13
                                                  Efff that. No radio or air conditioning. What is this 1847?

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                                                    Comment

                                                    • L-Pink
                                                      working on my tan
                                                      • Mar 2005
                                                      • 39151
                                                      #14
                                                      Originally posted by Paully
                                                      Efff that. No radio or air conditioning. What is this 1847?
                                                      Yea, that's as far as I read ???

                                                      .

                                                        Comment

                                                        • dyna mo
                                                          just a fucking jerk
                                                          • Dec 2008
                                                          • 68184
                                                          #15
                                                          Originally posted by Paully
                                                          Efff that. No radio or air conditioning. What is this 1847?
                                                          I get the impression it's primarily a track car with license plates. I wouldn't drive that car on wet roads with those p zero slicks on it, for instance.

                                                          So radio and a/c delete to save weight and HP. Porsche does it and charges more even to take shit out of their race prepped models.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • - Jesus Christ -
                                                              Confirmed User
                                                              • Mar 2003
                                                              • 7197
                                                              #16
                                                              Ugly.


                                                              .

                                                              Amen

                                                                Comment

                                                                • keysync
                                                                  Living the Dream
                                                                  • Sep 2011
                                                                  • 2375
                                                                  #17
                                                                  My brother just bought a 2014 Mustang GT California Special.

                                                                  It's pretty badass at $40k


                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • edgeprod
                                                                      Permanently Gone
                                                                      • Mar 2004
                                                                      • 10019
                                                                      #18
                                                                      Originally posted by keysync
                                                                      My brother just bought a 2014 Mustang GT California Special.

                                                                      It's pretty badass at $40k
                                                                      I had a California Special convertible in 2007, white with black top. Loved everything about it, I think I traded it in on one of the Porsches - and if so -- regretted it instantly.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Vendzilla
                                                                          Biker Gnome
                                                                          • Mar 2004
                                                                          • 23200
                                                                          #19
                                                                          I rode out to the beach to meet with some friends for dinner, they had rented a new Camaro.
                                                                          I couldn't get into the front seat.

                                                                          So i rode in style on my Harley
                                                                          Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
                                                                          think about that

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • SilentKnight
                                                                              Megan Fox's fluffer
                                                                              • Oct 2005
                                                                              • 24818
                                                                              #20
                                                                              Seriously, I wouldn't drive a Camaro if they gave me a free one.

                                                                              Back in the day we used to call them the 'Gino mobiles' - all the italian suburban kiddies that drove around in them.

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • ExtremeBank_Adam
                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                  • Dec 2005
                                                                                  • 1671
                                                                                  #21
                                                                                  Originally posted by edgeprod
                                                                                  On the one hand, it's got the specs. On the other hand, it's a $75,000 Chevy.
                                                                                  What's wrong with a $75,000 Chevy? That's what I have.


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                                                                                    • edgeprod
                                                                                      Permanently Gone
                                                                                      • Mar 2004
                                                                                      • 10019
                                                                                      #22
                                                                                      Originally posted by ExtremeBank_Adam
                                                                                      What's wrong with a $75,000 Chevy? That's what I have.

                                                                                      That's a very different $75k Chevy!

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • Useless Warrior
                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                          • Apr 2004
                                                                                          • 975
                                                                                          #23
                                                                                          American muscle cars for men with mullets, bad teeth and a penchant for their sister's tits.

                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                            • jódete
                                                                                              So Fucking Banned
                                                                                              • Oct 2013
                                                                                              • 635
                                                                                              #24

                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                • Captain Kawaii
                                                                                                  So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                  • Oct 2007
                                                                                                  • 6748
                                                                                                  #25
                                                                                                  Originally posted by edgeprod
                                                                                                  On the one hand, it's got the specs. On the other hand, it's a $75,000 Chevy.

                                                                                                  http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20140...porsche-beater

                                                                                                  Of course, I've bought several $100k Dodges, so I may not be the best one to ask. .. it just seems like you have to pretty much not give a single fuck what other people think and just enjoy this purely for your own purposes.
                                                                                                  75k$??? - GM has lost its mind.

                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                    • ExtremeBank_Adam
                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                      • Dec 2005
                                                                                                      • 1671
                                                                                                      #26
                                                                                                      Originally posted by edgeprod
                                                                                                      That's a very different $75k Chevy!
                                                                                                      Yeah, I know... just fucking with you. And, I think we paid about $10k less than that anyway.

                                                                                                      While I wouldn't pay $75k for that Camaro, because I'm not into car track days, I definitely have a few friends that would. One of my buddies was actively trying to get one... not sure if he had any luck or not, I think they are sold out of the ones they have produced already.

                                                                                                      But, if you are into track days or racing, and you take a "base" SS Camaro, beef up the suspension, wheels and tires, lighten the load, add ceramic brakes, do some engine mods for an extra 75 or so hp, and you'll probably be over that $75k anyway, so this car would be a bargain... again, if you're into that.

                                                                                                      Personally, I do/did all of my track days on a motorcycle, and prefer it that way. However, I am signed up for the Ron Fellows Corvette Owners School at Spring Mountain track this coming September... so I'll see how I feel after that.

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                                                                                                        • edgeprod
                                                                                                          Permanently Gone
                                                                                                          • Mar 2004
                                                                                                          • 10019
                                                                                                          #27
                                                                                                          Originally posted by jódete
                                                                                                          Haha, that looks like CurrentlySober!

                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                            • jackchen
                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                              • Apr 2014
                                                                                                              • 96
                                                                                                              #28
                                                                                                              very cool car there
                                                                                                              non-nude creater

                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                • Roald
                                                                                                                  SecretFriends.com
                                                                                                                  • May 2001
                                                                                                                  • 27910
                                                                                                                  #29
                                                                                                                  you US guys are so lucky with car prices lol


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                                                                                                                    • Paully
                                                                                                                      www.Max-Hardcore.com
                                                                                                                      • Nov 2005
                                                                                                                      • 1556
                                                                                                                      #30
                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Roald
                                                                                                                      you US guys are so lucky with car prices lol
                                                                                                                      How much would a Z06 Vette be over there Roald?

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                                                                                                                        • nico-t
                                                                                                                          emperor of my world
                                                                                                                          • Aug 2004
                                                                                                                          • 29903
                                                                                                                          #31
                                                                                                                          Originally posted by Vendzilla
                                                                                                                          I rode out to the beach to meet with some friends for dinner, they had rented a new Camaro.
                                                                                                                          I couldn't get into the front seat.
                                                                                                                          maybe time to lose weight

                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                            • nico-t
                                                                                                                              emperor of my world
                                                                                                                              • Aug 2004
                                                                                                                              • 29903
                                                                                                                              #32
                                                                                                                              Originally posted by Paully
                                                                                                                              How much would a Z06 Vette be over there Roald?
                                                                                                                              sparked my interest as well and found this brochure:
                                                                                                                              https://www.chevrolet.nl/eap/new-corvette.pdf

                                                                                                                              Those are the prices here in holland, new Z06 ? 165.995
                                                                                                                              That's about $230.000
                                                                                                                              All the extra cash in comparison with the price in the US is tax.

                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                • Roald
                                                                                                                                  SecretFriends.com
                                                                                                                                  • May 2001
                                                                                                                                  • 27910
                                                                                                                                  #33
                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by nico-t
                                                                                                                                  sparked my interest as well and found this brochure:
                                                                                                                                  https://www.chevrolet.nl/eap/new-corvette.pdf

                                                                                                                                  Those are the prices here in holland, new Z06 ? 165.995
                                                                                                                                  That's about $230.000
                                                                                                                                  All the extra cash in comparison with the price in the US is tax.
                                                                                                                                  Nuts huh ;)


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                                                                                                                                    • SekobA
                                                                                                                                      Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                      • Oct 2008
                                                                                                                                      • 12173
                                                                                                                                      #34
                                                                                                                                      awesome.gonna fuck many chick with this one

                                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                                        • 2MuchMark
                                                                                                                                          Mark of 2Much.net
                                                                                                                                          • Aug 2004
                                                                                                                                          • 50977
                                                                                                                                          #35
                                                                                                                                          Originally posted by edgeprod
                                                                                                                                          Haha, yeah. I've had about 10 F-bodies (preferred Firebirds, but had a couple of Camaro SS cars), and I think I've sat back there ONCE .. I'm 6'0, 185 lbs, haha.
                                                                                                                                          Hi Edgeprod,

                                                                                                                                          Same here - I've owned 10 Firebirds including an '87 base mode, 89 Formula, 91 GTA, 94 Formula, all the way up to the last production year. Loved them all. I purchased a 2SS RS Camaro in 2010, and then a 2SS RS 1LE in 2013.

                                                                                                                                          In my opinion, the Z28 is not worth it, especially when compared to the 2SS RS 1LE. The handling is almost exactly the same because they share the same or similar wheels and tires. Magnetic adjustable suspension is an option in the Z28 which I wish was available in the 1LE. So besides a few cosmetic differences, what you are really paying for is some extra horsepower ($75,000 for 505 horsepower vs <$50,000 for 426 hp).

                                                                                                                                          Yes its cool to have the available HP for some porche kicking fun, but is the $25k really worth it just to have it? You really can't take much advantage of it, and you have added costs such because the Z28 drinks more gas, tires wear out faster, your insurance might be higher, etc etc...

                                                                                                                                          btw: Yes it has back seats, but they are just for show or transporting midgets. I doubt that you could even fit a child seat back there.

                                                                                                                                          I like larger sports cars like the firebirds & camaros vs corvettes and Nissan 280/300's. Being 6'3" limited my choices a little, but I've enjoyed ever F-body I've ever owned.

                                                                                                                                          I know I'll get slammed by the gear heads here for saying this, but what you may want to consider instead is a Telsa Model S. They can easily, easily, beat any Camaro or Mustang on the road, and probably most Porches too. They of course have the added benefit of being electric, with a 300 mile range to boot. I've already put my 1LE up for sale and plan to order a Model S within a year. Gas is just too expensive, too dirty. It's a sedan, but performs like a sports car, and has room for full size people in the back, not just midgets and kiddies.

                                                                                                                                          Happy shopping!

                                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                                            • edgeprod
                                                                                                                                              Permanently Gone
                                                                                                                                              • Mar 2004
                                                                                                                                              • 10019
                                                                                                                                              #36
                                                                                                                                              Thanks for the thorough review, **********! To be completely clear, I am not even remotely considering this car -- was just trying to make my mind up about if I like it or not.

                                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                                • dyna mo
                                                                                                                                                  just a fucking jerk
                                                                                                                                                  • Dec 2008
                                                                                                                                                  • 68184
                                                                                                                                                  #37
                                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by MarkPrince

                                                                                                                                                  In my opinion, the Z28 is not worth it, especially when compared to the 2SS RS 1LE. The handling is almost exactly the same because they share the same or similar wheels and tires. Magnetic adjustable suspension is an option in the Z28 which I wish was available in the 1LE. So besides a few cosmetic differences, what you are really paying for is some extra horsepower ($75,000 for 505 horsepower vs <$50,000 for 426 hp).
                                                                                                                                                  a few cosmetic differences?

                                                                                                                                                  A fundamental difference in the 2 cars is the wheel and tire package, the OP even states that, the p-zero are a production first and the rims, ugh, n/m

                                                                                                                                                  the car weighs 300 fucking pounds less that the rs, the chassis has been massaged, and the suspension is, fuck, n/m.

                                                                                                                                                  dude, read about shit before you post your silly comments.

                                                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                                                    • georgeyw
                                                                                                                                                      58008 53773
                                                                                                                                                      • Jul 2005
                                                                                                                                                      • 9865
                                                                                                                                                      #38
                                                                                                                                                      I think most are looking at this car from the wrong perspective.

                                                                                                                                                      This is not a car you would drive daily or even at all on the road.

                                                                                                                                                      This is a car you would drag around on a trailer to different tracks to race on.
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                                                                                                                                                        • dyna mo
                                                                                                                                                          just a fucking jerk
                                                                                                                                                          • Dec 2008
                                                                                                                                                          • 68184
                                                                                                                                                          #39
                                                                                                                                                          for those actually interested in cars, i.e., not **********, here's a fantastic video on the chassis of the 2014 z/28

                                                                                                                                                          C/D Underbelly: A Tour of the 2014 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28's Amazing Chassis

                                                                                                                                                          We go beneath the Z/28's hard-core bodywork and reveal its technical wonders

                                                                                                                                                          http://www.caranddriver.com/features...o-z-28-feature

                                                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                                                            • dyna mo
                                                                                                                                                              just a fucking jerk
                                                                                                                                                              • Dec 2008
                                                                                                                                                              • 68184
                                                                                                                                                              #40
                                                                                                                                                              2014 z/28 beats 2014 gt-r track edition in head to head

                                                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                                                • datingfactory.xxx
                                                                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                  • Feb 2012
                                                                                                                                                                  • 289
                                                                                                                                                                  #41
                                                                                                                                                                  I like it. Maybe I will buy one myself!?
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                                                                                                                                                                    • Rochard
                                                                                                                                                                      Jägermeister Test Pilot
                                                                                                                                                                      • Dec 2001
                                                                                                                                                                      • 75733
                                                                                                                                                                      #42
                                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by keysync
                                                                                                                                                                      My brother just bought a 2014 Mustang GT California Special.

                                                                                                                                                                      It's pretty badass at $40k
                                                                                                                                                                      This is what I am talking about. $40k for a Mustang or a Camaro should be the upper limit, not $75k.

                                                                                                                                                                      Paying $75k for a car that looks identical to car that starts at $25k is silly.
                                                                                                                                                                      Herschel Savage
                                                                                                                                                                      Brooklyn, NY

                                                                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                                                                        • Roald
                                                                                                                                                                          SecretFriends.com
                                                                                                                                                                          • May 2001
                                                                                                                                                                          • 27910
                                                                                                                                                                          #43
                                                                                                                                                                          Originally posted by dyna mo
                                                                                                                                                                          2014 z/28 beats 2014 gt-r track edition in head to head

                                                                                                                                                                          Nice video


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                                                                                                                                                                            • Rumbledog
                                                                                                                                                                              So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                                                                              • Mar 2008
                                                                                                                                                                              • 299
                                                                                                                                                                              #44
                                                                                                                                                                              All General Motor products are junk. Cheaply made pure junk.

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                                                                                                                                                                                • ExtremeBank_Adam
                                                                                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                  • Dec 2005
                                                                                                                                                                                  • 1671
                                                                                                                                                                                  #45
                                                                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by georgeyw
                                                                                                                                                                                  I think most are looking at this car from the wrong perspective.

                                                                                                                                                                                  This is not a car you would drive daily or even at all on the road.

                                                                                                                                                                                  This is a car you would drag around on a trailer to different tracks to race on.
                                                                                                                                                                                  I wish there was a "like" button.

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                                                                                                                                                                                    • 2MuchMark
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mark of 2Much.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Aug 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                      • 50977
                                                                                                                                                                                      #46
                                                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by SilentKnight
                                                                                                                                                                                      Seriously, I wouldn't drive a Camaro if they gave me a free one.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Back in the day we used to call them the 'Gino mobiles' - all the italian suburban kiddies that drove around in them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      It was the same problem here. All the Gino's drove Camaro's. I hated the Camaros and always went for the firebird.

                                                                                                                                                                                      If I thought I would keep my camaro for a few years, I would have it transformed into a Trans Am by these guys: http://www.transamdepot.com/trans_am_showroom.html


                                                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by dyna mo
                                                                                                                                                                                      a few cosmetic differences?

                                                                                                                                                                                      A fundamental difference in the 2 cars is the wheel and tire package, the OP even states that, the p-zero are a production first and the rims, ugh, n/m

                                                                                                                                                                                      the car weighs 300 fucking pounds less that the rs, the chassis has been massaged, and the suspension is, fuck, n/m.

                                                                                                                                                                                      dude, read about shit before you post your silly comments.


                                                                                                                                                                                      Dude... where's my money for using my copyright picture of my cat in your avatar?

                                                                                                                                                                                      My comments are not silly. The differences are "cosmetic" to me because paying an extra $25,000 to gain a little extra speed, no matter how its done (Lower weight, supercharger, whatever), is stupid, and boring, and a waste of money, especially when its based on ANCIENT gas / piston / explosion Technology.


                                                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by dyna mo
                                                                                                                                                                                      for those actually interested in cars, i.e., not **********, here's a fantastic video on the chassis of the 2014 z/28
                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm interested in cars, but mostly when they are electric. Gas cars are BORING AS FUCK.

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                                                                                                                                                                                        • 2MuchMark
                                                                                                                                                                                          Mark of 2Much.net
                                                                                                                                                                                          • Aug 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                          • 50977
                                                                                                                                                                                          #47
                                                                                                                                                                                          Tesla Model S vs SUPERCHARGED Camaro SS


                                                                                                                                                                                          The Camaro beats it but by only 4/10th of 1 second, but wastes a shitload of energy to do it too. Gasoline sucks.

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                                                                                                                                                                                            • 2MuchMark
                                                                                                                                                                                              Mark of 2Much.net
                                                                                                                                                                                              • Aug 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              • 50977
                                                                                                                                                                                              #48
                                                                                                                                                                                              Ford SHELBY vs CAMARO vs JEEP vs VAZ 2107 vs HELICOPTER



                                                                                                                                                                                              SORRY NO TESLA

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                                                                                                                                                                                                • Fat Panda
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Porn is Dead. Move along.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Aug 2006
                                                                                                                                                                                                  • 13296
                                                                                                                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                                                                                                                  who needs a/c at 100 with the windows down?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                    • MaDalton
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am Amazing Content!
                                                                                                                                                                                                      • Feb 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      • 39861
                                                                                                                                                                                                      #50
                                                                                                                                                                                                      i like it but i'd take the convertible with the smaller engine
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