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cluck

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#1

Bringing democracy to Iraq

03-06-2003, 06:22 PM

What do you think we'll be doing by setting up a democracy in Iraq? I think there's a few possibilities.

Most likely it'll be completely destroyed and then become a "developing nation" aka sweatshop haven. Expect Nike factories there. After all, Bush did mention free trade(republican speak for sweatshop labor). He made sure he mentioned that he endorsed it.

Democracy for Iraq probably means 2 things: the people of Iraq will have no way to support themselves other than working in sweatshops where they will be raped or killed when they refuse to work(the USA openly supports countries already, saying that we are not responsible for how they do business, even though we buy their labor). The second thing is that with cheap labor over there, there'll be less and less jobs in the USA.

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#2

03-06-2003, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by cluck
The second thing is that with cheap labor over there, there'll be less and less jobs in the USA.

So you are in favor of keeping poor people poor?
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#3

03-06-2003, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by Raider Mort

So you are in favor of keeping poor people poor?

How is capitalism over there going to make anyone money? US companies in other countries, especially China, pay not nearly enough for an average person to sustain life. What they need is a stable economy, reasonable jobs, and healthcare. A community, rather than one big factory. Selling the oil and using it to sustain the people is a start. When building nations you need to focus on what you can do for the people, not how you can use them.

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#4

03-06-2003, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Raider Mort

So you are in favor of keeping poor people poor?

The Americans do it.

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#5

03-06-2003, 06:32 PM

This Cluck is so negative. Give it a chance.

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#6

03-06-2003, 06:35 PM

would it be worse than the current situation where people are starving and having zero freedom?

Ever notice that pretty much everything added to the Constitution after the original was a mistake.
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#7

03-06-2003, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by cluck

How is capitalism over there going to make anyone money? US companies in other countries, especially China, pay not nearly enough for an average person to sustain life. What they need is a stable economy, reasonable jobs, and healthcare. A community, rather than one big factory. Selling the oil and using it to sustain the people is a start. When building nations you need to focus on what you can do for the people, not how you can use them.

A living wage compared to what?

You must define that first.

By not allowing folks to work for "Nike" or whomever else, you are denying them an opportunity they would not have had.

What is the next best alternative to Nike in some 3rd world countries?

Prostitution is one of them.

Folks are lining up to get those "sweatshop" jobs.

If they were no better than their next best opportunity, then they would not work for the "sweatshop" in the first place.

It is called voluntary exchange.
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#8

03-06-2003, 06:38 PM

Anti-war people always complain and complain about the situation, but rarely ever have a solution.
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#9

03-06-2003, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by NBDesign

The Americans do it.

You are partly right.

Unions in America do it.

They want to reduce competition and keep their higher paying jobs.

Who can blame them?

Nobody, it is human nature.

Who is harmed?
People in the 3rd world that are not allowed to exploit their comparative advantage.

That advantage is a willingness to work for lower wages.

By keeping these folks out of the economic game, unions and socialists are relagating them to perpetual poverty.
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#10

03-06-2003, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by Raider Mort

You are partly right.

Unions in America do it.

They want to reduce competition and keep their higher paying jobs.

Who can blame them?

Nobody, it is human nature.

Who is harmed?
People in the 3rd world that are not allowed to exploit their comparative advantage.

That advantage is a willingness to work for lower wages.

By keeping these folks out of the economic game, unions and socialists are relagating them to perpetual poverty.

How about letting them start on their own and give them a chance to build a decent life? When their only option is to work 18 hours a day, there's not much of a way to get a better job.

I'm not saying the dictatorship now doesn't need to be stopped, I say just don't force a system on the people that they don't want or need. Not all the world wants capitalism.

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#11

03-06-2003, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by BigFish
Anti-war people always complain and complain about the situation, but rarely ever have a solution.

I'm not talking about the war. Change is inevitable. I'm talking about giving the people REAL opportunity, not forcing them to accept our way of life. Remember these people hate our system regardless of whether we are going to get rid of Saddam.

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Raider Mort

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#12

03-06-2003, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by cluck

How about letting them start on their own and give them a chance to build a decent life? When their only option is to work 18 hours a day, there's not much of a way to get a better job.

Well dude, in order to do that, you must get these folks involved in the world economy.

Do some honest research on the subject. You will find that the opportunity to work "overtime" or "extra hours" is highly valued by your sweatshop employees. It is an opportunity for them to make extra money. In many instances these folks are supporting huge families.

In most countries there are simply no "better" jobs.

It is not fair to take opportunity away from those that need it most.
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#13

03-06-2003, 07:07 PM

What happened to agriculture? Living a simple life? Once we've bombed all their farms they'll have no chance to get back on their feet, and we'll take advantage of their despiration rather than help them build the economy they once had. Seems kind of backwards.

The fact is that Iraq has oil. It has a great source of potential revenue that could easily feed the people. Instead, in the name of capitalism, a single person will own it and make all the money for himself. Call me fucked up but I say feeding a nation is more important than allowing someone to make their billions.

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#14

03-06-2003, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by cluck
What happened to agriculture? Living a simple life? Once we've bombed all their farms they'll have no chance to get back on their feet, and we'll take advantage of their despiration rather than help them build the economy they once had. Seems kind of backwards.

The fact is that Iraq has oil. It has a great source of potential revenue that could easily feed the people. Instead, in the name of capitalism, a single person will own it and make all the money for himself. Call me fucked up but I say feeding a nation is more important than allowing someone to make their billions.

Hey Cluck, so what you want is for somebody to send an email to Saddam and ask him to leave, right? After that, leave the people of IRAQ to do whatever the feel is right. Like I said, you're complaining but you have not even come close to a solution.
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#15

03-06-2003, 07:21 PM

This isn't about war. That's inevitable. I'm thinking about whether the new government put in place in Iraq is going to be what works out best in their interest, or in our interest.

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#16

03-06-2003, 07:29 PM

You don't understand the impoverished class very well. I ran a zipper factory in Los Angeles. Most all the workers were either illegal or had overstayed their visas. They made dog wages, but they were happy, and thankful just to have a job in America. The economic conditions where they came from were worse than the worst here in the sweatshops. Despite the crap wages, the workers were treated well and very excited to be here.

They were all able to live here without needing or wanting anything because they stick together. They all would send back home about 1/3rd to 1/2 the money they made here to support relatives back home.

So what you assume is a crappy job, some people are happy to have.

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cluck

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#17

03-06-2003, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by KRL
You don't understand the impoverished class very well. I ran a zipper factory in Los Angeles. Most all the workers were either illegal or had overstayed their visas. They made dog wages, but they were happy, and thankful just to have a job in America. The economic conditions where they came from were worse than the worst here in the sweatshops. Despite the crap wages, the workers were treated well and very excited to be here.

They were all able to live here without needing or wanting anything because they stick together. They all would send back home about 1/3rd to 1/2 the money they made here to support relatives back home.

So what you assume is a crappy job, some people are happy to have.

Were you paying them above minimum wage? I'm sure if it was that it couldn't have been much more for bottom of the barrel type jobs. The overseas workers do not get nearly the equivalent of what that would be in the US. Not only that, but workers are raped and killed, but this is ignored therefore encouraged by the USA. The fact is that if we're going to import goods from these people we should make sure that the people are getting what they deserve. Nike sells shoes for more than $100, is it fair that the person that had to do the actual labor get barely enough money to eat every 2 days? It's a moral question. Is Nike saving $5 per day per worker worth that worker starving? I don't think so.

Think of it this way. Would you think it was fair if all the independant paysites got bought out by Hugh Heffner and the only sponsor programs were a 0.2/99.8 revshare? What if that was the only job available? What would you think about heff? You'd hate him but you'd still wonder why he'd be so horrible as to only give you that amount of money when he could spare so much for the greater good.

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#18

03-06-2003, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by cluck

Were you paying them above minimum wage? I'm sure if it was that it couldn't have been much more for bottom of the barrel type jobs. The overseas workers do not get nearly the equivalent of what that would be in the US. Not only that, but workers are raped and killed, but this is ignored therefore encouraged by the USA. The fact is that if we're going to import goods from these people we should make sure that the people are getting what they deserve. Nike sells shoes for more than $100, is it fair that the person that had to do the actual labor get barely enough money to eat every 2 days? It's a moral question. Is Nike saving $5 per day per worker worth that worker starving? I don't think so.

Think of it this way. Would you think it was fair if all the independant paysites got bought out by Hugh Heffner and the only sponsor programs were a 0.2/99.8 revshare? What if that was the only job available? What would you think about heff? You'd hate him but you'd still wonder why he'd be so horrible as to only give you that amount of money when he could spare so much for the greater good.

How about we take Nike Corporation out of their Country. Would that make it better? Nike wouldn't be there in the first place if they knew the couldn't get cheaper labor than in the United States. If they had to pay the same rate that the labor market demands in the United States, why make a factory in another country???? C'mon now, use your head. The cost of living in a third world country a lot different than in the United States. It is not comparable.
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#19

03-06-2003, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by cluck

The fact is that if we're going to import goods from these people we should make sure that the people are getting what they deserve. Nike sells shoes for more than $100, is it fair that the person that had to do the actual labor get barely enough money to eat every 2 days? It's a moral question. Is Nike saving $5 per day per worker worth that worker starving? I don't think so.

Nike is just a shoe with a fancy little swoosh.

Anyone with 1/2 a brain can produce them.

A pair of Nike's is NOT worth $100 in the country it is produced in.

It is not until they reach the marketplace that they are worth $100, because that is what people are willing to pay for them.

You are right, it is a moral question.

Unfortunately you are on the nasty immoral side.

You want to deny the worlds poorest an opportunity to increase their standard of living.
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#20

03-06-2003, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by BigFish

How about we take Nike Corporation out of their Country. Would that make it better? Nike wouldn't be there in the first place if they knew the couldn't get cheaper labor than in the United States. If they had to pay the same rate that the labor market demands in the United States, why make a factory in another country???? C'mon now, use your head. The cost of living in a third world country a lot different than in the United States. It is not comparable.

I didn't say it was comparable. In some places a few dollars would be sufficient. The problem is that people are NOT getting enough to sustain life. It's too late for other countries. What I'm saying now is that instead of building a new iraq by sending our businesses there, we should help them utilize the resources that they have in a way that can build them in a way that will make them a comfortable, self reliant nation. But nooo, our society shuns hand outs.

Give a man a fish and he'll be fed for a day, teach him how to fish and he'll be good for life.

If we give them jobs they'll be at the mercy of us, and we will abuse them. Give them the opportunity to create their own jobs and they could be a great nation.

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#21

03-06-2003, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by cluck

I didn't say it was comparable. In some places a few dollars would be sufficient. The problem is that people are NOT getting enough to sustain life. It's too late for other countries. What I'm saying now is that instead of building a new iraq by sending our businesses there, we should help them utilize the resources that they have in a way that can build them in a way that will make them a comfortable, self reliant nation. But nooo, our society shuns hand outs.

Give a man a fish and he'll be fed for a day, teach him how to fish and he'll be good for life.

If we give them jobs they'll be at the mercy of us, and we will abuse them. Give them the opportunity to create their own jobs and they could be a great nation.

Their ability to create their own jobs is up to how their government runs society. Don't blame it on the corporations. The corporations do not force them to work at the factories. They work there because they have no other choices. Look at Japan, Look at South Korea. You should go complain to their governments, not complain about corporations. If anything corporations moving into their countries create more opportunity for them. Two corporations demanding the same laborers will drive the pay checks up. I'm sure you know the invisible hand theory and supply and demand.
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#22

03-06-2003, 08:18 PM

You want to deny the worlds poorest an opportunity to increase their standard of living.

You're making me look like I want them to starve. If Nike is willing to give them jobs and HELP THEM BUILD A STEADY ECONOMY AND GIVE THEM A DECENT STANDARD OF LIVING, so be it. The fact is that their only motivation is greed and if they could get them to work for nothing more than a meal a week they would.

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#23

03-06-2003, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by cluck

You're making me look like I want them to starve. If Nike is willing to give them jobs and HELP THEM BUILD A STEADY ECONOMY AND GIVE THEM A DECENT STANDARD OF LIVING, so be it. The fact is that their only motivation is greed and if they could get them to work for nothing more than a meal a week they would.

Not to mention the beatings, intimidation, unpaid overtime and threats that go on in Nike's sweatshops overseas. It's fucking despicable.
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#24

03-06-2003, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by BigFish

Their ability to create their own jobs is up to how their government runs society. Don't blame it on the corporations. The corporations do not force them to work at the factories. They work there because they have no other choices. Look at Japan, Look at South Korea. You should go complain to their governments, not complain about corporations. If anything corporations moving into their countries create more opportunity for them. Two corporations demanding the same laborers will drive the pay checks up. I'm sure you know the invisible hand theory and supply and demand.

Ah yes, well that theory is nice, but there's problems with that. An american company would never own a foreign sweat shop. They go through overseas agencies who get a lump some of money from them and distribute it among the workers. That's how they can get away with saying they don't rape their workers, it's not them, it's the agency. Even if the agency was recieving more money, they would still pay the workers the minimum wage.

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#25

03-06-2003, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by cluck

Ah yes, well that theory is nice, but there's problems with that. An american company would never own a foreign sweat shop. They go through overseas agencies who get a lump some of money from them and distribute it among the workers. That's how they can get away with saying they don't rape their workers, it's not them, it's the agency. Even if the agency was recieving more money, they would still pay the workers the minimum wage.

So you're questioning a theory that is central to how the whole world economy is working right now? Are you in high school or something?
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#26

03-06-2003, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by BigFish

So you're questioning a theory that is central to how the whole world economy is working right now? Are you in high school or something?

No I'm not still in high school.

When 20% of the people have 80% of the money and the gap is continually widening, you know that eventually there'll be major problems.

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#27

03-06-2003, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by cluck
This isn't about war. That's inevitable. I'm thinking about whether the new government put in place in Iraq is going to be what works out best in their interest, or in our interest.

"thinking about" ?

From your first post it seemed you had already made up your mind to be as negative as possible.....

Time will tell - you aren't going to find the answer here, and let's all hope those in charge aren't as negative about it. The people of Iraq are going to need something to look forward to.
They might consider something that might be "below" your standards something they would be very happy with... a start.

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#28

03-06-2003, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by cluck

No I'm not still in high school.

When 20% of the people have 80% of the money and the gap is continually widening, you know that eventually there'll be major problems.

Like I said before, quit complaining and formulate a solution right here. You keep saying this and that, but what is your logical solution? Raise pay?? That'll drive corporations back to the United States and leave workers in third world countries with NOTHING. Eliminate Corporations all together?? The result is obvious there.
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#29

03-06-2003, 08:33 PM

captitalism is the natural state God or most likely evolution created for us to flourish in or fail in, Darwinism. People don't excel when you take away their motivation to get ahead and do better than the next guy. When the big dog does well all the little dogs do better. Except the little dogs who just wanna lie on their backs all day long.

The sick and helpless little dogs should be helped and that's it, not the ones lying on their back waiting for somebody to drop some food down their mouths.

And the United States has lots of socialism in it, there are states where people pay as much taxes as in a much more socialistic country like Canada.

And let's put up some numbers for how much $$$ all the countries in the world put up to help out other countries. When an earthquake hits some shithole in South America or wherever what country sends the most help?

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#30

03-06-2003, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by BigFish

Like I said before, quit complaining and formulate a solution right here. You keep saying this and that, but what is your logical solution? Raise pay?? That'll drive corporations back to the United States and leave workers in third world countries with NOTHING. Eliminate Corporations all together?? The result is obvious there.

Help them out in (re) building their own society. Help them start their own businesses, don't put the entire population at the mercy of already huge and corrupt ones. Help them develop agriculture, help them out with healthcare initially. Make them into a HAPPY people that are greatful to us for giving them a hand, not that HATE us but continue to take our shitty jobs because it's the only thing available.

How do you think they'll feel if once we liberate them they end up poorer than they are now? It'll just be another generation of anti-western terrorists.

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#31

03-06-2003, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by cluck

Help them out in (re) building their own society. Help them start their own businesses, don't put the entire population at the mercy of already huge and corrupt ones. Help them develop agriculture, help them out with healthcare initially. Make them into a HAPPY people that are greatful to us for giving them a hand, not that HATE us but continue to take our shitty jobs because it's the only thing available.

How do you think they'll feel if once we liberate them they end up poorer than they are now? It'll just be another generation of anti-western terrorists.

We can't do that under your terms, you know why? Americans get their money from "Corporations" through owning shares and working directly or indirectly through the "Corporations". This results in the U.S. government earning revenue from Americans through tax dollars from regular citizens and "Corporations" alike. According to you, if we were to spend that "dirty money" we would simply just make the corrupt Corporations grow and therefore make them more corrupt. Sorry to break your heart man.
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#32

03-06-2003, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by BigFish

We can't do that under your terms, you know why? Americans get their money from "Corporations" through owning shares and working directly or indirectly through the "Corporations". This results in the U.S. government earning revenue from Americans through tax dollars from regular citizens and "Corporations" alike. According to you, if we were to spend that "dirty money" we would simply just make the corrupt Corporations grow and therefore make them more corrupt. Sorry to break your heart man.

Did I ever say my ideas are feasable? Did I ever show any glimmer of hope that they'd work? I don't believe we're going to working socialist society anymore than you do. Just saying what it would be like if everyone would think about the good of others before themselves.

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